Jesus Loves His Enemies…and Then Kills Them All

[Amigo]

fact is - we don't know what God is behind and what He allows - but we do know that He KNOWS the unseen from start to finish.

As a Christian I know with certainty that nothing evil comes from God and that all good comes from God and God alone, no creature can originate good. Creatures are themselves goods which come from the greatest and supreme good: God. Only God is good and source of all goodness.

Allowing something is not the same as approving it.
God allows evil, but does not approve of it.
In fact, He allows it and lets it expose itself enough for man to realize that God does not approve it.
How can man know that God desaprouve evil while they are in ignorance of it? Therefore it is especially to those men who deny the possibility/existance of evil by their sinnfulness that evil is exposed to, the evil which corresponds to their sins and is a result of them.

 

[Ali_008]

Well, I didn't write the bold part by themselves. Read the whole message.
Again how can you want to be good without God's grace in the first place?

God's grace is not a forcing...that's why it comes with free will.

Let alone being good, you can't even exist without God's grace and mercy. The way Christians believe that God loves all because He rises the sun over everyone, gushes rain over everyone and allows everyone to breath does not in any way say that God adores the sinner too. Your claim only portrays that if God did hate sinners then He wouldn't allow them to have a share of His grace. In other words, God would have instantly ruined the sinners by giving the most grievous chastisement. Well, the Qur'an does have an answer as to why their punishment is not instantaneous.

وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةٌ سَبَقَتْ مِن رَّبِّكَ لَكَانَ لِزَامًا وَأَجَلٌ مُّسَمًّى

Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord, (their punishment) must necessarily have come; but there is a Term appointed (for respite).
Surah # 20 - Ta Ha - Verse 129​

Sinners live a carefree and reckless life thinking that they will never have to account for their deeds. This ignorance of theirs is the most easy route to their doom.

Allah allows them to live not because He loves them but because He wants to establish justice. Allah lets every man live his entire course and the door of repentance for man is open for all his life. The eternal punishment from Allah is not instantaneous so that the sinners don't cry in the hereafter that they were unjustly robbed of their lives and if they had lived all of it, they would've believed.

وَلَوْ أَنَّا أَهْلَكْنَاهُم بِعَذَابٍ مِّن قَبْلِهِ لَقَالُوا رَبَّنَا لَوْلَا أَرْسَلْتَ إِلَيْنَا رَسُولًا فَنَتَّبِعَ آيَاتِكَ مِن قَبْلِ أَن نَّذِلَّ وَنَخْزَىٰ
And if We had inflicted on them a penalty before this, they would have said: "Our Lord! If only Thou hadst sent us a messenger, we should certainly have followed Thy Signs before we were humbled and put to shame."
Surah # 20 - Ta Ha - Verse 134

وَلَوْلَا أَن تُصِيبَهُم مُّصِيبَةٌ بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ فَيَقُولُوا رَبَّنَا لَوْلَا أَرْسَلْتَ إِلَيْنَا رَسُولًا فَنَتَّبِعَ آيَاتِكَ وَنَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِي
If (We had) not (sent thee to the Quraish),- in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they might say: "Our Lord! why didst Thou not sent us a messenger? We should then have followed Thy Signs and been amongst those who believe!"
Surah # 28 - Al-Qasas - Verse 47​

Our entire life is a series of numerous chances given to us to return to God and every time the call is rejected, the heart gets darker and darker. Adding only to the eternal punishment in the hereafter. Allah's love is dependent on the response to His calls. If a man believes, Allah loves him and if he rejects it, Allah hates him.

Allah's call reaches all. It does not have anything to do with affection, it has more to do with justice. Just appearing for a test does not make you qualify to the next level, passing the test does. Similarly, just witnessing the truth does not make you Allah's beloved, accepting it does.

P.S. - I recently found verse(s) from the Bible that dictate God's hatred for the sinners. I know others have also quoted such verses before and I'm just adding to it.

01. The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
02. Son of man, set thy face against the Ammonites, and prophesy against them;
03. And say unto the Ammonites, Hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou saidst, Aha, against my sanctuary, when it was profaned; and against the land of Israel, when it was desolate; and against the house of Judah, when they went into captivity;
04. Behold, therefore I will deliver thee to the men of the east for a possession, and they shall set their palaces in thee, and make their dwellings in thee: they shall eat thy fruit, and they shall drink thy milk.
05. And I will make Rabbah a stable for camels, and the Ammonites a couching place for flocks: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
06. For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel;
07. Behold, therefore I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen; and I will cut thee off from the people, and I will cause thee to perish out of the countries: I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.
08. Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because that Moab and Seir do say, Behold, the house of Judah is like unto all the heathen;
09. Therefore, behold, I will open the side of Moab from the cities, from his cities which are on his frontiers, the glory of the country, Bethjeshimoth, Baalmeon, and Kiriathaim,
10. Unto the men of the east with the Ammonites, and will give them in possession, that the Ammonites may not be remembered among the nations.
11. And I will execute judgments upon Moab; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
12. Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because that Edom hath dealt against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and hath greatly offended, and revenged himself upon them;
13. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also stretch out mine hand upon Edom, and will cut off man and beast from it; and I will make it desolate from Teman; and they of Dedan shall fall by the sword.
14. And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.
15. Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the Philistines have dealt by revenge, and have taken vengeance with a despiteful heart, to destroy it for the old hatred;
16. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast.
17. And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Ezekiel 25

 

[Amigo]

Brother, justice comes from love or it is not justice at all. Justice is a fruit of Love.
Wherever there is true love, there is true justice.
Wherever there is no true love, there is no true justice.
Only true love judges justly

All these are simple facts that even little childreen are capable of understanding for they are proclaimed by God in every heart and conscience. The writer of the Bible knew this and assumed freely and justly that readers of their sacred letter already knew and was capable of grasping what they were talking about and that in no way they were preaching a hateful God. Love (Holy Spirit) rarely writes litterally, for no letter can contain the perfection and glory of God and his justice. They did not address themselves to a reading mind, but to the heart and conscience where God himself confirms their witness. Their words can not therefore be highjacked without consequences. They proclaim and contain in themselves salvation and judgement.
Only those who hate and need a hateful God to justify their hatred, will dare to attribute hatred to God in order to justify their hatred to each other; and if they do, that will be their own appropriate punishment. For there is no punishment greater and most just for liars than to let them believe their own lies (outer darkness). Perfect justice of love, for who will not be saved by his attraction to love, will be saved by his repulsion of hate. If they embrace hatred forever, they will suffer forever its incapacity to conquer love. Gnashing of teeth will be their lot...

 

[Ali_008]

I don't think you actually understand what justice means. I never actually understood your logic of love being justice. Justice is a phenomenon in which people get what they deserve. Sinners deserve chances, multiple chances, repeat warnings and everything they can get to change their lives in accordance with the welfare of the masses. What they don't deserve is endless love, if they are endlessly ruthless.

If justice means showering as much love on the sinner as the sinless then where is justice in that. What's the point of holding onto God's commands if He's gonna love you even if you rape and assault people.

You know this thread started as something like the Bible vs the Qur'an but now it has become the Qur'an & the Bible vs the Church. We've quoted verses from even the Bible that dictate God's hatred and agony for the sinners but you Churchians believe theories made by some bishop or pastor or pope of yours who was granted no authority by the Lord to do so but yet you people believe them going against your own scripture. And not even questioning his claim.

A Christian is someone who believes in the Bible and not some corrupt versions of it that don't encourage it but rather stand against it. Give me one verse from the Bible which says that God loves sinners, which says He won't throw them in the hell fire, which says sinners will be just left to ruin each other in hell instead of being subjected to torture.

The way the Christians propagate the beliefs of the "Church" instead of propagating the Bible has been already mentioned in the Qur'an. Your claims aren't even backed by the Bible, rather the Bible is against them.

سَنُلْقِي فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا الرُّعْبَ بِمَا أَشْرَكُوا بِاللَّهِ مَا لَمْ يُنَزِّلْ بِهِ سُلْطَانًا ۖ وَمَأْوَاهُمُ النَّارُ ۚ وَبِئْسَ مَثْوَى الظَّالِمِينَ
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
Surah # 3 - Ale Imran - Verse 151

قَالَ قَدْ وَقَعَ عَلَيْكُم مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ رِجْسٌ وَغَضَبٌ ۖ أَتُجَادِلُونَنِي فِي أَسْمَاءٍ سَمَّيْتُمُوهَا أَنتُمْ وَآبَاؤُكُم مَّا نَزَّلَ اللَّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلْطَانٍ ۚ فَانتَظِرُوا إِنِّي مَعَكُم مِّنَ الْمُنتَظِرِينَ
He said: "Punishment and wrath have already come upon you from your Lord: dispute ye with me over names which ye have devised - ye and your fathers,- without authority from Allah? then wait: I am amongst you, also waiting."
Surah # 7 - Al Ar'af - Verse 71

قَالُوا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ وَلَدًا ۗ سُبْحَانَهُ ۖ هُوَ الْغَنِيُّ ۖ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ ۚ إِنْ عِندَكُم مِّن سُلْطَانٍ بِهَٰذَا ۚ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
قُلْ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَفْتَرُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الْكَذِبَ لَا يُفْلِحُونَ
They say: "Allah hath begotten a son!" - Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not?
Say: "Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper."
Surah # 10 - Yunus - Verse 68-69

مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِهِ إِلَّا أَسْمَاءً سَمَّيْتُمُوهَا أَنتُمْ وَآبَاؤُكُم مَّا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلْطَانٍ ۚ إِنِ الْحُكْمُ إِلَّا لِلَّهِ ۚ أَمَرَ أَلَّا تَعْبُدُوا إِلَّا إِيَّاهُ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
"If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah: He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not...
Surah # 12 - Yusuf - Verse 40​

 

[Amigo]

God's love is not favoritism. you are confusing love with favoritism and preventing yourself from seeing its connection to perfect justice.

You have to remember that God, being One and perfect, does/can not have conflict within himself. He can not have a kind of love which conflict with justice... mercy conflicting with justice.
Defininately God would be seriously conflicted if He has both 'love' and 'hate' somehow coexisting with each other. Hate itself is a conflicting thing, inherent of sin and only sinners possess it; it makes them conflicted, troubled, and with sufferings.

God can not have hate... any hate within himself. Hate is a disgrace, a disease, it belong to those who have lost grace.... You will be chocked when you realise the full meaning of what you have been suggesting....

It is amazing how you see love as a disgrace, but hate as an honorable thing. Well, amazing but not surprising...

Fact is: in God; love, justice, mercy, truth, life, peace all these are one and the same thing. They look/seem/appear different to us in different situations because we are limited (in time and space), but in God they are all the same thing, therefore One.

That's what it means that God is One.

You have been lowering God and making him into a limited being in all kinds of ways. God is not even 'a' being...one being among many. God is Being itself. When this is undertstood, then it may start getting clear what sin and sinning actually means as well as consequences for that.

 

[Ali_008]

Brother Amigo, I'm here to discuss religion, not to discuss your personal views. If you want to put forward something then give me references from the book you follow whether it be the Qur'an, the Bible, the Vedas or some philosopher's guide. I can't debate with you if you keep giving me your own opinion. Give me references from the books you follow so that I can match it with the Qur'an and choose for myself what I feel is right. I can't just blindly accept what you are communicating to me without any reference and join your religion taking you as a Prophet or God himself. You said God is ONE, that concept is Islamic so I'm presuming you're a Muslim but the rest of your post is something which I haven't yet come across in any religious scripture so far so please give the references to those points. I'm a follower of Islam, a believer of Allah's justice and not a promoter of hatred. I'm a Muslim because I believe Islam is the religion of peace, the perfect religion and the best religion. If you can guide me to a religion better and more logical than Islam, I openly admit that I'm ready to accept it. But first, show me a religion better than Islam. I'm asking you for references because that is what the best book in the world i.e. the Qur'an teaches. I love theology and getting more knowledge of my creator will only be a delight for me.

قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Surah # 2 - Al Baqarah - Verse 111

فَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا الْهَوَىٰ أَن تَعْدِلُوا ۚ وَإِن تَلْوُوا أَوْ تُعْرِضُوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا
Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
Surah # 4 - An Nisa - Verse 135

قُلْ فَأْتُوا بِسُورَةٍ مِّثْلِهِ وَادْعُوا مَنِ اسْتَطَعْتُم مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

Say: "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!"
Surah # 10 - Yunus - Verse 38

قُلْ فَأْتُوا بِعَشْرِ سُوَرٍ مِّثْلِهِ مُفْتَرَيَاتٍ وَادْعُوا مَنِ اسْتَطَعْتُم مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
Say, "Bring ye then ten suras forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever ye can, other than Allah!- If ye speak the truth!
Surah # 11 - Hud - Verse 13

هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِي
Bring forth your argument, if ye are telling the truth!
Surah # 27 - An Naml - Verse 64

قُلْ فَأْتُوا بِكِتَابٍ مِّنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ هُوَ أَهْدَىٰ مِنْهُمَا أَتَّبِعْهُ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِي
Say: "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"
Surah # 28 - Al Qasas - Verse 49

فَأْتُوا بِكِتَابِكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
Then bring ye your Book (of authority) if ye be truthful!
Surah # 37 - As Saffat - Verse 157​

 

[Amigo]

You are talking about truth and truthfulness.

I am and have been talking about my faith in Jesus Christ and his love for all men in relation to the subject of this thread. I am talking about my faith, not the faith of others (including various authors of sacred scriptures).
Even though I received my faith from others, I do have what I received and I am the one who is here with you.
You can ask me about what I am saying and what I mean by what I am writting, but you can not do so with a quote of an author who is not here. That person can not stand up and clarify what they mean by their writting or what is attributed to them as their writting. It is therefore pointless for both of us to appeal to books especially since we don't properly agree on the containt and authorships.

You are free to take what I write as my personnal opinion. If they are true, God is always present and no book is ever more present than Him. God himself witness to the truth.
Books (Archived information from the past) can be verified and confirmed in the present, but not the other way around.

It is God (ever present) who confirm the validity of a book (or any claim from the past), not the other way around.
Since we are here in the present, and God is also here (as always) in the present, we have enough. God is enough.

You can presume that I am Muslim, just note that I submit to God who is love; God of perfect integrity. I subscribe to the 'fiat' of Mary. The 'Yes', that makes reparation for sins and save sinners from the destruction of their sins.

Peace comes from healing and restoration, not from destruction. A religion which appeals to the creative/healing/restoring power of God that's the religion of peace to me.
I believe that God heals and restores his creation; in no circomstance does He destroy the work of his own hands, even sin can't destroy the work of God. Hell is the ultimate place where sin and evil in all their might attempt to destroy the sinners but fail, so sinners are tormented to the full measure of their sins, but are never annihilated.

 

[Ali_008]

I am talking about my faith, not the faith of others (including various authors of sacred scriptures).

First of all, the followers of every sacred scripture claim that their book has been written by God himself. If you don't believe so about Bible then I agree with you. The book which was revealed to Jesus (AlayhiSalaam) was the Injeel. Down the years, it has had unlimited number of corruptions and the result has been what we have now as the "New Testament". The Bible (both Old and New Testament) had initially just one author i.e. God but corruptions by the so-called scholars doesn't allow you to say that anymore.

P.s. The Old Testament was revealed to Moses (AlayhiSalaam) as Taurat by the one and only God.

You can ask me about what I am saying and what I mean by what I am writting, but you can not do so with a quote of an author who is not here. That person can not stand up and clarify what they mean by their writting or what is attributed to them as their writting. It is therefore pointless for both of us to appeal to books especially since we don't properly agree on the containt and authorships.

What kind of love is this which can't defend its beloved? If you can't defend anything then why preach it. This is not true love, this is just infatuation. Going with the flow as long as it is convenient.

Like I said, I don't want your opinion. You are no scholar, no prophet nor an angel. You're just a guy speaking out on a forum on the internet whatever he feels like. And their is no powerful source or reference of your views. Who gave you the authority to speak about God whatever you think? Brother, if you want to be a good Christian, your views should only be what the Bible teaches. If you are going to be following your own theories and theories passed onto you by others then you're just following smoke. Those theories don't have any foundation. They would be strong if they were based on the principle of a strong source like the Qur'an. God gave you no authority to just blabber whatever comes to your mind in your defense. Believe me brother, the state of Christianity today only makes me sad because Christians believe whatever their church teaches them without even questioning the authenticity of those principles. Has it ever occurred to you that when a person in the church talks about God that you should stand up and ask him where in the Bible are those ethics stated?

If every Christian is going to be following his own perception of God and that which the Church teaches then why do you even need the Bible? More importantly, such a scenario will only create chaos in the Christian world as their will be no unity. If the concept of God in every person's mind is that which is taught in their Church then every Church will become a separate religion altogether, not even a separate sect. None of us have any authority to attribute those things to God which He hasn't revealed to us in His books.

لَا تَتَّبِعُوا خُطُوَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ ۚ إِنَّهُ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِي
إِنَّمَا يَأْمُرُكُم بِالسُّوءِ وَالْفَحْشَاءِ وَأَن تَقُولُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

Do not follow the footsteps of the evil one, for he is to you an avowed enemy.
For he commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of Allah that of which ye have no knowledge.
Surah # 2 - Al Baqarah - Verses 168-169

وَإِذَا فَعَلُوا فَاحِشَةً قَالُوا وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهَا آبَاءَنَا وَاللَّهُ أَمَرَنَا بِهَا ۗ قُلْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَأْمُرُ بِالْفَحْشَاءِ ۖ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?"
Surah # 7 - Al A'raf - Verse 28

قُلْ إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ رَبِّيَ الْفَوَاحِشَ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَمَا بَطَنَ وَالْإِثْمَ وَالْبَغْيَ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَأَن تُشْرِكُوا بِاللَّهِ مَا لَمْ يُنَزِّلْ بِهِ سُلْطَانًا وَأَن تَقُولُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.
Surah # 7 - Al A'raf - Verse 33

قَالُوا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ وَلَدًا ۗ سُبْحَانَهُ ۖ هُوَ الْغَنِيُّ ۖ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ ۚ إِنْ عِندَكُم مِّن سُلْطَانٍ بِهَٰذَا ۚ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
They say: "Allah hath begotten a son!" - Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not?
Surah # 10 - Yunus - Verse 68​

I ask for references from you only because you are a Theist. I don't ask for references from Atheists because they don't follow any set of principles laid down by some authority. They just follow what they think is correct. Kind of the same way which you are doing now. How can you talk about peace and brotherhood in Christianity when every Christian supposedly has his own image of God with the Bible thrown in the air. This situation is reminding me of this hilarious video I had seen about a revert. He entered Islam from Christianity. Go through this video, it is both educational and hilarious:

If you are going to keep on dictating your thoughts without any credentials to back them then they'll only be considered fiction.

If you've ever read a non-fiction book then you must know that every one of those books have "reference" pages at the end. The authors, of course, put forward their own thoughts about a particular subject in their books but they give these references to prove that their beliefs stand on those pillars. That is how the world functions, you have to prove your point with enough preparation and credentials from credible sources.

The ones who don't give references are the ones that write fiction.

 

[Amigo]

Actually, books carry more theories and opinions than natural thing.
If you need to know principles, look into the natural world. That is the Creation of God.
Don't focus on the artificial world, or the creation(s) of man. The work of human hand.

Jesus, to save mankind from the chain of artificiality, kept pointing to nature (creation of God):
He pointed to the sun that God raise on the good and the bad, the rain that rains on all men.
He pointed to the flowers of the fields, the mountains, the birds, the sea, the river, and mostly on man himself.
He tried to save people from associating the message/Word of God with artificiality, reminding them that God speak most clearly and authoritatively in his own creation, not the creation of man. The Gospel is not a book, it is a person.

So what Jesus was pointing at, is still with us today. You can verify it today yourself and know with real proof (your own eyes, ears, heart, conscience, etc...) that they were not made up stories. Therefore, absolutely no excuse to disbelieve them...
You can look and see that rain does rain on all, sun does rise on all, all that was said about birds, rivers, etc. Even what does not appear clear will become clear while you get used to the exercice.
As I said, and you know it to for sure, God is here, and speaks now. Why go read what (people claim) He 'said' while He is here and speaking right now?
Scripture is more precisely about how people 'related' to God. It is archive on the account of the people of the past who are not here, not on the account of God who is ever present, or his Word which is ever present as well, and ever living.

Now, you can call what I say whatever you want. However, from listening to God, I know that you have a head, a conscience and a heart. This is enough for me, first to speak to you if necessary, second to let you free to believe whatever you want.
I am not defending the Truth. Truth is divine, it does not need any defense, nothing can defeat it. I am giving explanation to my hope.

Books are the work of man, they can not speak, they can not listen,...
What you described brother, is known as Sola Scriptura. It is a known doctrine in Protestantism. Contrary to what you are saying, books are not a source of unity, but disunity, not a source of peace, but of conflict.
The more a people believe in the primacy of Scripture, the more divided it gets.
The more it divinizes scripture, the more violent it gets.
Yes, those who add to or remove from Scripture are judged indeed.

There is a right ground for unity and peace among men which was gifted by God.
With this gift, sacred scripture is given its rightful place and is respected much better.
Nothing added + nothing removed = less divine judgement = more peace and unity.
I will use a code/hint name for it for it is very sacred: "Melkizedek"

 

[Ali_008]

You know you speak about Christ but from where did you come to know about him? How do you even know he existed? How do you know how his name was even spelled? You are being as good as an atheist just considering what you feel to be right as right. The only difference is you believe in the existence of God. If you don't believe in a scripture then that is fine. I must admit, you're the first of a kind I've ever come across.

You believe books to be man-made materials which is true as far 99.999999999999% of the books of the world are concerned. The remaining 0.0000000000001% is the Qur'an and some texts (that agrees with what the Qur'an says) from other scriptures. I recommend you to start reading the Qur'an and you'll know it for yourself that it is not the work of a human. The work of a human can never be so strong and influential as the Qur'an. All other scriptures have had one point of change or the other but not the Qur'an. It is in the same condition as it was when it was revealed over 1400 years ago.

Don't neglect scriptures. Don't forget that you are acquainted with God only because of scriptures. Books don't divide, it is humans who choose to divide themselves. Like you said, books don't speak nor listen and that exactly is their core. They just deliver the message they are supposed to deliver and man is free to believe it, disbelieve it, interpret it, misinterpret it, read it, not read it. Instead of following God by the ways men are teaching you, why not follow by the ways commanded by God himself?

And the sun, moon, trees, animals thing. If you've seen the video I posted, the brother quoted the verse that made him revert, quite actually pointed at the exact same thing. Even Muslims believe that the works of nature are signs for wise people.

إِنَّ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ وَالْفُلْكِ الَّتِي تَجْرِي فِي الْبَحْرِ بِمَا يَنفَعُ النَّاسَ وَمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مِن مَّاءٍ فَأَحْيَا بِهِ الْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا وَبَثَّ فِيهَا مِن كُلِّ دَابَّةٍ وَتَصْرِيفِ الرِّيَاحِ وَالسَّحَابِ الْمُسَخَّرِ بَيْنَ السَّمَاءِ وَالْأَرْضِ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْقِلُونَ
Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.
Surah # 2 - Al Baqarah - Verse 164​

God is timeless. His laws are applicable in every day and age. I can't believe how close to Islam you've spoken in your last post. It is indeed true that sometimes the laws, the doctrines, the scriptures and even the prophets are exclusively for people of a particular era or a particular place. Jesus (AlayhiSalaam) was sent as a prophet only to Israel and the Injeel was meant only for the Israelites. This is what Islam teaches. But Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) was the last and final messenger. Hence, he wasn't sent for a particular class of people. He was sent for all mankind to be followed till the day of judgment. And the same thing applies to the scripture revealed to him i.e. the Qur'an.

I say it again, read the Qur'an. You'll be surprised to find how a book which was revealed over 1400 years ago still sounds so contemporary.

 

[Amigo]

I know that you have a father and a mother. How did I know that, you know, I didn't read that in a book. Many people know that, I know that they didn't read that in a divine book. I also know that they know that.
Yet, a friend can be convinced that you were born on a tree, how would a person possibly come to believe something like that. Now if you find yourself discussing with someone who believe that, and he keeps telling you that it is true because he read it in a 'divine' book. Would you believe him and disown your parent? or because you know/see that you do have parents, you will therefore conclude that the poor person is either reading a book wrong, or reading a lie in a book?

Nearly everyone in the world know about Christ, only few also know him from reading books, and he would still be known without books.

Now, there is a difference about 'knowing about' someone, and 'knowing' someone.
Books get people to 'know about' someone, but not to 'know' someone.
You can not know someone unless he is present with you. When you know someone, you can tell whether people who know about him, know wrong or right thing about him. If they report that they know about him from particular books, you can tell whether those books are telling the truth about him or not.
I meet Christ often, therefore, I can tell whether what is reported about him is true or not. Seek to be with him, then you will know the truth about various reports about him.

You ask me to read the Quran, I read it, not only that you read it to me all the time, but as you know, no amount of reading will change it from being a book.

 

[Abz2000]

this thread has such a funny title, every time i browse past it - i remember the praying mantis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYp_Xi4AtAQ

 

[Ali_008]

قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Surah # 2 - Al Baqarah - Verse 111​

You express your disregard for scriptures so openly yet you have verses in your signature.

 

[Amigo]

You express your disregard for scriptures so openly yet you have verses in your signature.

I respect the proper place of Scriptures.

Here is a fact about truth: It is divine. Proofs of truth are not produced by man but by God.

Proofs that you have a mother and a father, are produced by God over there where you are. If God did not produce them there, then I was not truthful.

 

[Ali_008]

I know that you have a father and a mother. How did I know that, you know, I didn't read that in a book. Many people know that, I know that they didn't read that in a divine book. I also know that they know that.

I know them because I see them everyday and have been communicated since my birth that they are my parents. I don't believe them to be my parents on a random thought. And I am lucky enough to have parents. There are some people in the world who never ever even get a chance to know the names of their parents, let alone see them. This information is directly fed to you whether you know it or not, accept it or not.

A part of Islamic faith is belief in the unseen i.e. God, angels, jinns, heaven & hell, prophets etc.

Yet, a friend can be convinced that you were born on a tree, how would a person possibly come to believe something like that. Now if you find yourself discussing with someone who believe that, and he keeps telling you that it is true because he read it in a 'divine' book. Would you believe him and disown your parent? or because you know/see that you do have parents, you will therefore conclude that the poor person is either reading a book wrong, or reading a lie in a book?

I'd say the same thing to him which I say to you.

قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Surah # 2 - Al Baqarah - Verse 111​

But such facts are not present in the Qur'an and I don't have that immense faith in any other book as I have in the Qur'an.

Nearly everyone in the world know about Christ, only few also know him from reading books, and he would still be known without books.

Those people know Christ without reading scripture because Christ has been made so popular by the ones who have read about him in scriptures. It's all a matter of communication. How about a child who was born in a deep remote village where the entire population is Hindu, do you think that child will ever come to know about Christ in his entire life? Unless he steps out of the village.

I was a Muslim just by name for the first 17 years of my life and I wasn't even living in a Muslim community. There are 25 prophets mentioned by name in the Qur'an and during those 17 years, I knew the name of only 4 of them - Muhammad, Ibraheem (Abraham), Eesa (Jesus) and Moosa (Moses) (Peace be upon them all). I had never read the translation of the Qur'an in all those years yet I knew their names, how? Because they were so popular. They were always discussed somewhere or the other.

Now, there is a difference about 'knowing about' someone, and 'knowing' someone.
Books get people to 'know about' someone, but not to 'know' someone.
You can not know someone unless he is present with you. When you know someone, you can tell whether people who know about him, know wrong or right thing about him. If they report that they know about him from particular books, you can tell whether those books are telling the truth about him or not.
I meet Christ often, therefore, I can tell whether what is reported about him is true or not. Seek to be with him, then you will know the truth about various reports about him.

Like I said before your love is so strange and keeps giving such weird excuses all the time. Your love for God seems to be conditional that you'll believe in Him only if you can see Him. What if you stop "seeing" Christ for the next few days? What will you do then? Let go of your religion? Most importantly, give me proof that you see him everyday. Post a picture of yours with him. It's so weird that so many Christians "see" Christ yet they don't obey him. They still drink, they still smoke, they still take drugs, they still practice promiscuity, they still eat pork. And the highlight, never does Christ seem to mention anything about the Muslims who so devoutly obey his preachings. The people who "see" Christ only have philosophical answers for defending their beliefs. The answers that you throw at me are like arrows hurled in the air, they hit no target and just fall back on the ground, back to square one.

You ask me to read the Quran, I read it, not only that you read it to me all the time, but as you know, no amount of reading will change it from being a book.

And no amount of reading will change your excuses from being lame and inauthentic. Not backed by any authority.

Truth is divine, it does not need any defense, nothing can defeat it.

Here is a fact about truth: It is divine. Proofs of truth are not produced by man but by God.

It is quite amusing how your statements keep changing with your convenience. Earlier, the truth did not need any defense and now the responsibility of its defense has been handed to God just because you can't do it. At places where you can't explain your views, you're just throwing that away on God. Are you just playing with the truth or nowhere near it?

 

[Amigo]

God is the Truth. He does not need any defense.
You asked me to post a picture as proof, but we both know you would not believe it if it was posted. There are more than a picture. Again, it is God himself who reveal/give proofs according to his holy judgements.
Men are not just biological, they are spiritual as well. Therefore their sights are not just biological...they are spiritual as well. The spiritual world is not hidden/unseen to those whose spiritual eyes are healthy. It is unseen to biology, but not to spiritualty. And if they can see, they can tell true claims from false ones about those who reports on spiritual realities. All according to spiritual health of people. For people see at various degrees, some are totaly blind, others see clearly, many are somewhere in the middle.

 

[Ali_008]

All excuses, no logical explanations or proofs.

By the way, I don't remember giving you any right to judge my reasoning. Just post a picture. That's all I ask. Like you said, "God himself who reveal/give proofs according to his holy judgements" then inshAllah I'll believe it or Allah will make me believe it, only if you are truly truthful.

 

[Ali_008]

Jesus came to save people
not destroy them
salvation is a free gift
there is no jihad in the Bible
it is islamic specialty
Jesus sacrificed His own life for all humanity
for hitler and muhammad too
and for all muslims
for you and me
for everybody
it is YOU - not Jesus- who will decide what will hapen to you after you die
Jesus paid the punishment for your sins and when you receive His salvation you will spend the whole eternity in heaven with Him
if you reject it - you will pay for your sins by yourself
that is simple
YOU decide

This keeps getting better. A strong Bible follower. Welcome aboard. I hope we can discuss these issues one by one. Which one do you wanna start with?

Go through the previous posts in this thread to see what we've been discussing. And your comments are welcome.

 

[Amigo]

By the way, I don't remember giving you any right to judge my reasoning.

I obviously dont' get that right from you. If I did, I would not be able to do so until you allow me to.

Just post a picture. That's all I ask. Like you said, "God himself who reveal/give proofs according to his holy judgements" then inshAllah I'll believe it or Allah will make me believe it, only if you are truly truthful.

Love does not give what is wanted unless it is needed for beatitude. You will receive what you ask when God judges your desire sincere and beneficial. Also don't be so focused on the artificial: 'post','picture',...think about God-made things not man-made things, then you will get closer to the perfect, therefore the beneficial.

 

[Ali_008]

You're not leaving me with any choice. The least I can do (which I am doing) is ask for the validity of your posts. You don't wanna give any reference, you don't wanna give any proof. You just want me to blindly believe whatever you're saying. Who are you? A Prophet? An Angel? A Jinn? God himself? The Pope? The Caliph? Seriously, should I believe it only because you're saying so, when you happen to be nobody. I don't even know you personally to take your words for granted.

It's like I'm walking down the road and a man comes to me with a black ugly liquid and asks me to drink it whilst throwing away the white sweet nectar that I'm carrying with me. When I ask him what it is? He tells me don't ask, just drink it. No matter how much he insists I'll never drink it till he proves it that it is beneficial for me. That it is better than what I already have. Moreover, when asked for what it contains? He tells me, just believe me. Why should I? Especially when the Allah commands the believers to check the truth:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِن جَاءَكُمْ فَاسِقٌ بِنَبَإٍ فَتَبَيَّنُوا أَن تُصِيبُوا قَوْمًا بِجَهَالَةٍ فَتُصْبِحُوا عَلَىٰ مَا فَعَلْتُمْ نَادِمِينَ

O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
Surah # 49 - Al Hujurat - Verse 6​