Jesus on the Cross

[Imam]

Hi Imam:

2. The Context

You wrote:
In order to come to some agreement on this verse, let us try to determine the subject of “those who differ therein”. Differ about want? About:

Grenville

Greetings,

Grenville ,
the subject of “those who differ therein is mentioned in the Quran...

let's give another similar example:

The Smiths family said;we crucified Jack the enemy,but they crucified him not,but so it was made to appear to them so, and those who differed about it therein were full of doubts , with no (certain) knowledge , but only conjecture to follow .

What the first (it) refers to? (the issue of crucifiction)
What the second (it) refers to? (the issue of crucifiction)

one of the reasons of your confucion is that you follow translations ,which the word (about it) is missed though it exists in the Arabic Quran

The following is the literal,exact translation of the verse,and I challenge anyone to provide a reasonable modification to it....

4:157, 158 - And their saying "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them so , and those who differed about it, are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge about it , but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

It always refers to (The issue of crucifiction)

you made a grave error when you wrote:

4:157, 158 - That they [the Jews] said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they [the Jews] killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it [the Jews’ boast or claim of killing Christ Jesus] was made to appear to them [because they brought Jesus to the Romans].



what them refers to? It is clearly refers to the Jews in both Arabic and English .....
you tried to make it refers to others but that is a grave error cause the context is very very clear..

4:157, 158 - That they [the Jews] said , "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they [the Jews] killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them so.

in Arabic is clear too

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ
Even a primary Arabic school student will notice easily that (them) refers clearly to (The Jews)

 

[Imam]

Hi Imam:

We have no evidence that Jesus performed any similar miracles during the crucifixion that unbelievers asserted were magic.
Regards,
Grenville

If we you have no evidence that Jesus performed any similar miracles during the time of crucifixion,then never argue again from silence...

the verse has a very broad meaning ,not limited by time.....

simply it means God protected him all the way from the harm of the Jews and logically others too.

 

[Imam]

Hi Imam:

You wrote:

Imam, I am sorry. I still cannot identify the "blessing on the Day of Judgement" in the verses that you quoted.

Regards,
Grenville

well,let me use the word favor instead

5:109-110 - One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him, What kind of favor he will remind him day of Judgment?

 

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

1. The Context

You wrote:

The following is the literal,exact translation of the verse,and I challenge anyone to provide a reasonable modification to it....

4:157, 158 - And their saying "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them so , and those who differed about it, are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge about it , but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

It always refers to (The issue of crucifiction)

OK Imam. I believe that we are in partial agreement. You believe that “it” refers to “the issue of the crucifixion”, while I believe that “it” refers to “the Jews claim that they crucified Jesus”. However, while “those who differ therein” does refer to “it” I do not believe that it does so directly. I also agree with you that “them” refers to the Jews.

For clarification, let us use your translation and I will insert my comments in brackets as before.

And their saying "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it [the Jews claim that they crucified Jesus] was made to appear to them so [the Jews who made the claim], and those who differed about it [the statement ”but they killed him not, nor crucified him”], are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge about it , but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Essentially, I am interpreting the verse to read that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, while you are interpreting the verse to read that Jesus was not crucified. The Verse states, “but they [the Jews] killed Him not, nor crucified Him” and therefore lends itself to both interpretations.

Now let us assume that your interpretation is correct, let us examine the consequences of “but so it [the crucifixion] was made to appear to them”.

We either have to assume that someone else was crucified that looked like Jesus, or that Jesus was only tied to the cross and not crucified. Perhaps you can suggest some other scenario. If we assume that it was someone else who looked like Jesus, then we also have to assume that even Jesus’ mother was deceived by this impostor. Since Mary was present when they took the impostor from the cross, and would have had an opportunity to closely examine him, it is likely that she would have recognised that the impostor was not her son. We therefore have to make another assumption - that she was complicit in the deception.

If we assume that Jesus was not crucified and only tied to the cross, then we must assume that the Roman soldiers were complicit in the deception. We also have to assume that the two thieves who were crucified with Jesus were also complicit or that Jesus was out of their view, or that they were blind. We would also have to assume that the Jews were complicit in the deception since they would have clearly seen that Jesus was tied and not nailed to the cross. Further, we would have to assume that the Gospel writers were frauds and that the Jewish and Roman historians who stated that Jesus was crucified were either frauds or deceived. I suppose that you can also believe that God simply deceived them all.

Imam, the choice is yours. You can either believe the verse as stated in the Qur’an, which is that the Jews did not kill Jesus. Or you can believe your interpretation, which is that Jesus was not crucified. If you believe the former, it would be in harmony with the rest of the Qur’an, recorded history and the Gospels. If you believe the latter, you would have to make numerous assumptions, all of which are unlikely. I urge you to choose wisely.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

6. God’s Favour

Imam, the verse appears to interpret itself. It states: I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic’.”

You interpret this to mean that God restrained the Jews from crucifying Jesus, while I believe that the verse means that God restrained the Jews from harming Jesus while Jesus was doing miracles and the Jews were claiming that Jesus was doing magic – which is exactly what it states. I believe that you would have to damage the integrity of 5:109-110 to make them refer to the crucifixion.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Imam]

Essentially, I am interpreting the verse to read that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, while you are interpreting the verse to read that Jesus was not crucified. ,
Grenville

The verse has both the meanings:
1-Jews did not crucify Jesus.
2-Jesus was not crucified.

as long as the verse affirms that the Jews never crucified Jesus and he was raised up to heaven ,it denotes and without any reasonable doubt that he wasn't crucified neither by the Jews nor by anyone else..

what is the deal of raising up a crucified,deformed corpse to heaven?

I got bored of clarifying the clear for you....

you really proved yourself to be such kind of persons who can never confess their being in error,and not ready to accept the corrections of others who ever refute them..

If you have any other NEW topic..open it..if not

consider my discussion with you to be over..

peace

 

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

Please note that I do not hold on too tightly to any interpretation, for interpretations can change with new knowledge; however, any new interpretation that I adopt must be reasonable, and if it is based on assumptions, then those assumptions must be verifiable or reasonable. I cannot reconcile my mind to your interpretation which to me requires unreasonable assumptions, and you have not refuted my interpretation.

Let us use an analogy. Joe Springer said that he shot President Kennedy, but he did not and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no certain knowledge, for of a surety he did not shoot President Kennedy.

This analogy lends itself to the interpretation that President Kennedy was shot, but not by Joe Springer. Even if we accepted the interpretation that President Kennedy was not shot, we would then have major difficulty reconciling that interpretation with the historical record. Can you see why I am having such difficulty in reconciling what is written in the Qur’an with what Islamic tradition teaches?

Further, the Qur’an states that God raised him up unto himself. This lends itself to the interpretation that God raised Jesus from the dead. You interpret this as God raised Jesus from a non-existent crucifixion. Again, it can be interpreted both ways. I just happen to believe that to interpret the verse that God raised Jesus from the dead remains in harmony with the rest of the Qur’an, with the Books that came before, and with recorded history.

Best regards,
Grenville