Jesus thought JIHAD

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Here is a representative interpretation of the passage, by St. Theophan the Recluse:

The parable of the ten pounds portrays the entire history of mankind until the second coming of Christ. In it the Lord speaks of Himself, of His sufferings, death, and resurrection to the Heavenly Father, to reign over mankind—all of which is His birthright. Those who remain on the earth are divided into two parts: servants, serving the Lord through obedience to the faith, and those who do not want to have Him as king and serve Him, because of their unbelief. To those who approach the Lord through faith, with a readiness to serve Him, are given the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the holy mysteries: this is a pound—and every person numbered amongst the believers receives it for serving. When everyone from the human race capable of submitting to the Lord submits to Him, then He will come again, as One who has received the Kingdom. His first job will be to judge among the servants: who acquired what with the grace given. Then will follow judgment also over those who did not want to have Him as king; that is who either did not believe, or who fell from faith. Imprint these truths in your mind and do not lose attention to them, for then there will be a decision—do not expect any changes. Flee unbelief, neither believe idly, but bring forth the fruits of faith. Finding you faithful over a few things, the Lord will make you ruler over many things (cf. Matt. 25:21).
 
On a side note, Ramadhan, what is depicted in your profile picture? I'm not sure but it reminds me of glutinous rice wrapped in leaves
 
Here is a representative interpretation of the passage, by St. Theophan the Recluse:

Nice interpretation, but are there any other authentic narration (from Jesus pbuh himself) that support this interpretation? I'll give you a comparison: When someone make a tafseer (interpretation) of a Qur'an verse, they need to back it up with other Qur'an verses and authentic ahadeeth.

By the way, I have often heard christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) loves everyone. Is this true and do you agree with this?


On a side note, Ramadhan, what is depicted in your profile picture? I'm not sure but it reminds me of glutinous rice wrapped in leaves

It's ketupat. Not only glutinous rice, but mostly just ordinary rice. My mornings often start with dishes incorporating ketupat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketupat

 
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Even the sinners in Hell he loves, but it is their choice to be separated from them, and he will not destroy our free will.

So Jesus pbuh loves sinners so much he burns and tortures them in hell?

Is this the same love that Hitler had for the jews that he couldn't wait to torture and kill them?

As a parable, it uses figurative language, like the parables of the vineyard and the wicked husbandmen.

In christianity, who decides which one is parable and which one is not?
 


Nice interpretation, but are there any other authentic narration (from Jesus pbuh himself) that support this interpretation? I'll give you a comparison: When someone make a tafseer (interpretation) of a Qur'an verse, they need to back it up with other Qur'an verses and authentic ahadeeth.


It's a good question. I'm not really qualified to answer it. Generally our very rough equivalent to your ahadeeth is apostolic tradition, as expressed in the writings of the Fathers of the Church and its hymns. If a given interpretation is shared by many Fathers it is almost certain to be of apostolic provenance. And, like you might turn to respected Islamic scholars who have devoted a lifetime to study, we might seek the advice of trusted Orthodox bishops or experienced monks regarding certain matters. I do not at the moment have access to the relevant patristic writings on this particular parable. I can say however that there are many parables in the Gospels (the ten virgins; the ten talents, etc.) which refer figuratively to the spiritual life and also the last judgment. The parable of the talents (Matthew 25: 14-29) is especially appropriate to compare with this parable of the ten minas.

[SUP]14[/SUP]For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
[SUP]15[/SUP]And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
[SUP]16[/SUP]Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
[SUP]17[/SUP]And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
[SUP]18[/SUP]But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
[SUP]19[/SUP]After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
[SUP]20[/SUP]And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
[SUP]21[/SUP]His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[SUP]22[/SUP]He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
[SUP]23[/SUP]His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[SUP]24[/SUP]Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
[SUP]25[/SUP]And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
[SUP]26[/SUP]His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
[SUP]27[/SUP]Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
[SUP]28[/SUP]Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
[SUP]29[/SUP]For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then Christ proceeds immediately to telling about his return:



[SUP]31[/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

[SUP]32[/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33[/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34[/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35[/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36[/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37[/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38[/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39[/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40[/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41[/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42[/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43[/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44[/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45[/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46[/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.




There is also this parable from Luke 12:
[SUP]37[/SUP]Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
[SUP]38[/SUP]And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
[SUP]39[/SUP]And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
[SUP]40[/SUP]Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
[SUP]41[/SUP]Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
[SUP]42[/SUP]And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
[SUP]43[/SUP]Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
[SUP]44[/SUP]Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
[SUP]45[/SUP]But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
[SUP]46[/SUP]The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
[SUP]47[/SUP]And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
[SUP]48[/SUP]But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


It is clear also that Jesus never commanded anyone to kill for his sake. When Saint Peter attacked the priest's servant (Luke 22:49-51) Jesus immediately rebuked him and healed the servant's ear. He said "My kingdom is not of this world" and therefore the disciples would not take up arms for him.

By the way, I have often heard christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) loves everyone. Is this true and do you agree with this?




It's ketupat. Not only glutinous rice, but mostly just ordinary rice. My mornings often start with dishes incorporating ketupat.

Okay, my mom was Malaysian Chinese and we had this from time to time.
 
Please excuse the double post: moderator can delete the last one.
 


So Jesus pbuh loves sinners so much he burns and tortures them in hell?


He loves them so much that he respects their free choice to turn away from him.

Is this the same love that Hitler had for the jews that he couldn't wait to torture and kill them?

I don't agree with you that God's punishment of sinners is comparable to Hitler's holocaust.

In christianity, who decides which one is parable and which one is not?

Are you still denying that it is a parable? I have already given you the passage from the Gospel where it plainly says that Jesus was speaking a parable.

Jesus was never an earthly king so of course he is speaking figuratively.
 
It's a good question. I'm not really qualified to answer it. Generally our very rough equivalent to your ahadeeth is apostolic tradition, as expressed in the writings of the Fathers of the Church and its hymns

I don't think you understand what ahadeeth is.

ahadeeth are collections of direct sayings and actions of prophet Muhammad SAW. Authentic ahadeeth are collections ahadeeth whose narraters and transmitter are known, and whose characters of each narrator and transmitters have been vetted must not tell a lie, and whose contant (mat'an) must not against qur'an.

the four gospels are similar to ahadeeth.

The difference:
1. while every single transmitters of ahadeeth are known, transmitters of gospels are not known.
2. while the original ahadeeth (in arabic) survived, while none of originals of gospels did not survive.
3. while the narrators of ahadeeth are known and their life are known to the little details, the authors of gospels are not known.

If we had anything like gospels, it would have been rejected as maudu (fabrication) and/or weak, and so muslims only take authentic ahadeeth (hasan or shahih).

If a given interpretation is shared by many Fathers it is almost certain to be of apostolic provenance. And, like you might turn to respected Islamic scholars who have devoted a lifetime to study, we might seek the advice of trusted Orthodox bishops or experienced monks regarding certain matters. I do not at the moment have access to the relevant patristic writings on this particular parable. I can say however that there are many parables in the Gospels (the ten virgins; the ten talents, etc.) which refer figuratively to the spiritual life and also the last judgment. The parable of the talents (Matthew 25: 14-29) is especially appropriate to compare with this parable of the ten minas.

I am not asking about other parables. I am asking about THAT (Luke) particular parable, and back up narration to prove your claim that Jesus did not approve of Lord killing his enemies.
in that parable, Jesus said that his Enemies should be Brought in front of him and Slaughtered ...


It is clear also that Jesus never commanded anyone to kill for his sake.

Really? You obviously have never even opened your bible. There are many instances in the bible where Jesus not only approved of commanded to kill babies, women, men, etc:

Deuteronomy 2:32-37
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

Deuteronomy 3:1-7
1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. 2 And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. 3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. 7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves

Deuteronomy 7:1-6
1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.


Should I go on?
It will fill this thread for ages to come if I have to write how Jesus killed and murdered and commanded people to kill babies, rape women, etc.

He said "My kingdom is not of this world" and therefore the disciples would not take up arms for him.

Really?
Here's what Jesus specifically said:

"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (Luke 22:36)"
 
He loves them so much that he respects their free choice to turn away from him.

I don't think you really thought through what you are saying.

Jesus will burn and torture people in hell. I am not talking about now.

I don't agree with you that God's punishment of sinners is comparable to Hitler's holocaust.

So you agree that Jesus punished sinners?

Are you still denying that it is a parable? I have already given you the passage from the Gospel where it plainly says that Jesus was speaking a parable.

Where did I deny it was a parable?
I want to know who decides which ones are parable which ones are not because it seems in most cases it's very arbitrary.

Jesus was never an earthly king so of course he is speaking figuratively.

So Jesus will also not be a leader on earth during his second coming?
 
Should I go on?
It will fill this thread for ages to come if I have to write how Jesus killed and murdered and commanded people to kill babies, rape women, etc.
If God would command people of that time to love their enemies, it would be surely too difficult for them to fulfil. Notice that God restricts the violence of humans against humans (for example ‘eye for eye’, or ‘ tooth for tooth’; but not ‘you can kill someone if you don’t like him’ (this was characteristic for many of the pagan cultures), for example). If the Law of Moses was too difficult for the people of that time to fulfil (the OT describes it constantly in its books), then how more difficult would the commandments of Jesus appear for those people? The commandment of love towards the enemies is a superhuman one (too difficult for a fallen man), and therefore can be fulfilled through the help of God’s grace. The NT / teaching of Jesus is the fullness of God’s Revelation, delivered to the mankind in time that God finds the most appropriate one. Nothing is morally higher than the Gospel.:)
 
??? Where is this written?


They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)"


How else would they have verify whether they have slept with a man without raping them and checking if the hymen is torn or not and they had found 32000 such women

And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lyingwith him. Number {31:36}
 
It is certainly not true because it would contradict the Lord’s commandment
“Thou shalt not commit adultery” (Exodus 20) And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Leviticus 20)
Roughly speaking adultery is having sex with a woman who is not your own wife. I’m sure it wouldn’t be difficult for them to discern the married woman from the virgin by looking at the expression / appearance of face, eyes, and bodily movements for example. There is a difference in this sense between some married man or woman and the virgin who has never experienced sex.
It’s also clear that they could use the virgins as the maidservants, or may be even marry them if they would accept the right faith.
 
It is certainly not true because it would contradict the Lord’s commandment

Well, Jesus also broke his own command not to kill by commanding people to kill babies and women too.

Why are christians such a bunch of selective readers?
The amount of cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


Roughly speaking adultery is having sex with a woman who is not your own wife. I’m sure it wouldn’t be difficult for them to discern the married woman from the virgin by looking at the expression / appearance of face, eyes, and bodily movements for example. There is a difference in this sense between some married man or woman and the virgin who has never experienced sex.
It’s also clear that they could use the virgins as the maidservants, or may be even marry them if they would accept the right faith.

Do you really believe what you just wrote?

;D
 
"f you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." This passage was already discussed a page or two back so I don't want to go in circles. Regarding the Old Testament killings, I suppose I could discuss here the very important changes wrought in man's relationship to God, between the Old Testament and the New Testament, but it seems to me you are not particularly interested in what Christians actually believe. All the same, Ramadhan, may God give you peace, and I congratulate you on yet another crushing forum victory.
 
Brother Iconodule, it is not a matter of victory or defeat. It is all about letting truth prevail and so it does every time. The motive of having discussions on this forum is not Muslims gaining victory over Non-Muslims. The conversations that take place here are all meant to present Islam crystal clearly not only to Non-Muslims but also to Muslims. Don't consider us your enemies. Of course during our debates, all of us get a little vehement and get carried away and react angrily but at the end of the day the Muslims only want to clear the allegations against Islam and prove it to the world what it really is i.e. the religion of peace.

If you feel Brother Ramadhan has left you speechless then instead of admitting defeat, take it as realization of truth. We are not at war here that we must have a winner. Your realization of truth will be bigger than any worldly victory for all of us. And just like the beloved Prophets (peace be upon them all), nobody's asking anything from you in return for it.

""But if ye turn back, (consider): no reward have I asked of you: my reward is only due from Allah, and I have been commanded to be of those who submit to Allah's will (in Islam)."

Surah Yunus (10) Verse 72
 
Brother Iconodule, it is not a matter of victory or defeat. It is all about letting truth prevail and so it does every time. The motive of having discussions on this forum is not Muslims gaining victory over Non-Muslims. The conversations that take place here are all meant to present Islam crystal clearly not only to Non-Muslims but also to Muslims. Don't consider us your enemies.

Thank you Ali. Certainly I consider none of you enemies. I too am not interested in victory or defeat, but truth, which is why I am not interested in pointless back-and-forths which are typical of internet forums, producing much heat but no light. As I mentioned earlier there are some very ignorant people I have encountered, both online and off, who claim that Muslims worship a "moon god." I'm sure you've run into this too. At a certain point I back away from arguing with them, just as I back away from anyone who is so deeply committed to distortion and hostile posturing that no rational argument will move his heart. Is it because they left me "speechless" by the power of Truth? Is it because Muslims really do worship this "moon god"? Certainly not. There are only so many hours in the day and I cannot spend all of them arguing with every dishonest person on the internet.

God be with you.
 
"f you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." This passage was already discussed a page or two back so I don't want to go in circles. Regarding the Old Testament killings, I suppose I could discuss here the very important changes wrought in man's relationship to God, between the Old Testament and the New Testament, but it seems to me you are not particularly interested in what Christians actually believe. All the same, Ramadhan, may God give you peace, and I congratulate you on yet another crushing forum victory.


You said Jesus (p) never asked his disciples to take up arms, and I have shown you a verse from the bible where Jesus (p) clearly told his disciples to buy swords. You said Jesus never commanded people to kill on his behalf, and I have shown you countless verses from the bible where he commanded people to kill babies and women.

And I am interested to show christians that what they actually believe are clearly against what their bible says.

Either christians follow what their bible says or admit that there is something really wrong with their bible.
 
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Thank you Ali. Certainly I consider none of you enemies. I too am not interested in victory or defeat, but truth, which is why I am not interested in pointless back-and-forths which are typical of internet forums, producing much heat but no light. As I mentioned earlier there are some very ignorant people I have encountered, both online and off, who claim that Muslims worship a "moon god." I'm sure you've run into this too. At a certain point I back away from arguing with them, just as I back away from anyone who is so deeply committed to distortion and hostile posturing that no rational argument will move his heart. Is it because they left me "speechless" by the power of Truth? Is it because Muslims really do worship this "moon god"? Certainly not. There are only so many hours in the day and I cannot spend all of them arguing with every dishonest person on the internet.


lol. not another moon god?

It seems you are so fixated with the moon god analogy. So could you please show us from Qur'an and as sunnah (ahadeeth) to back up their claim that muslims worship moon god?

And if you think that muslims in this forum are like those christians who claim muslim worship moon god, then it seems you cannot stomach the truth.

If you read every single post in this section written by muslims about christians, it is always backed up by christians' own bible verses, meanwhile the moon god crowd can never produce one single verse to back up their claim.

We are here to speak about and discuss the truth. We are here to separate truth from falsehoods, we are not here to mix them up.
(eg. in another thread about peacock and snake story, you claimed it was ok to tell fabricated stories about Allah swt). If truth is the lowest of your priority, you can always go straight to the puzzle and humour section or creative writing and art section. I am sure the sections wouold be more receptive to the fabricated pagan story about multiple personality god who split himself into 3.
 
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"f you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." This passage was already discussed a page or two back so I don't want to go in circles.


Jesus has commanded killing of children who curse their parents and you say Jesus doesnt preach killing ?

Mathew 15:4

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


Here we see Jesus rebuking the Jews who were not following this command, that those who curse their parents should be killed, rather the Jews made up their own man made laws. As you can see, Jesus was very angry with them for not following this law, and brought it to their attention, it is very obvious that Jesus still believed in this law and believed in carrying it out.

Christians often like to claim that the Torah laws are no longer to be followed; these verses completely refute that notion. If Jesus wanted to abrogate the Torah law on the punishment of children cursing their parents, he could have easily ended that commandment right there and then, but rather what we see is that he is very angry that the Jews have not followed this ruling.
So we must ask the Christians, why don’t they follow this law, and why don’t they ever tell us that Jesus believed in this law as well. It seems they are ashamed, and it also seems they are shy, and it also seems that they are so caught up in their own lies and inventions they created on Jesus that they can no longer escape it.
 

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