Let me see if I have this right...

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If it was the inacrnation of the son (God) then it was that incarnation of the father(God) as well, don't you think so?!

Don't you believe that Jesus and the father are one in substance?

Grace seeker ...why you always trying to give the impression that the Trinity makes sense?!!

Answering your last question first. Because it does to me. I don't pretend that it either does or even should make sense to everyone just because it does to me.


As to your other points/questions:

No, I do not believe that [the human] Jesus and the Father are of one substance.

What I believe is that the Son and the Father are of one substance, both being God. And I believe that Jesus is the incarnation of the Son. Therefore Jesus is God. But he is not the Father. The Father and the Son are different persons, yet still just one God.


Still, the distinctions I draw above are details. I only quibble over them because you asked. But, since I know that most Muslims identify Allah with the Christian description of the Father, therefore, I don't want to say that your previous statement is wrong. Especially in light of the fact that Jesus himself said, "I and the Father are one." But if you ask me to be more precise, it is then I have to draw the distinctions between the persons, even though I know that it will lead you and others to see tri-theism in what I have just said.

This is the tension within Christianity. On the one had we truly are (at least in our own mind) monotheists. We really do believe the statement of Deuteronomy 6:4 -- "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

And yet we also believe:
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.



1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.


Philippians 2:10-12
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.



How do we hold to these conflicting statements at the same time?

Some would answer that the the description of Jesus as Lord is only like the word "Sir" and means nothing. But that doesn't work in the context of the way Jesus is actually addressed, especially by people like the disciple Thomas who on seeing him following his resurrection:

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


Fortunately, the scriptures (that we recognize) themselves answer our problem by telling us:

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. (John 1:14a)

And at the same time that we are told that the Word became flesh (literally had a change in state) have previously been told, in John 1:1, that the Word was God (indicating a permament condition of the Word's being). Further the Gospel writer goes on to identify this Word (i.e. God) who put on flesh to be the man John the Baptist baptized and called the Lamb of God, Jesus of Nazareth.

So, from the Christian perspective we believe the Bible makes two statements, both of which we hold to be propositional truths:
1) there is but one God who created heaven and earth and all things in it.
2) Jesus, who was born of Mary, is God.

Since we also hold that the propositional truths of the Bible must in and of themselves be true (a point which I recognize non-Christians don't agree with), then we are left to live with the inherent tension of simultaneously holding as true what appear to be impossibly conflicted propostions.

Now for most, the mere appearance of that conflict would be enough to cast doubts upon the truth of one or perhaps even both propositions. I understand that. And I would probably join you in that where it not for my acceptance of the testimony of Christ's resurrection. Another seeming impossibility, that yet somehow rings true for me. And that being so, I am prepared to accept that there are things that seem impossible to me, that I cannot fully explain, but which I am prepared to accept as nonetheless true.

The Christian assertion that God is a singular triune being is not an attempt to explain away the tension that we must live with in holding what we know to be two conflicting truths at the same time. It is certainly not an attempt to define how it is that they are true or that God's nature works. It is merely a description of what we observe when we observe the action and character of the God we know. He is but one, yet exists in three persons known to us at the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

You can argue it doesn't make sense all you want. In the end we might even agree with you. But we will continue to also answer, that no matter how little sense it makes, we still observe it to be what is.
 
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Grace seeker .... in your post you only highlighted the problem ,and as expected you solved it the Trinitarian way,and how they view the proof text,ignoring others and their views of the same text:

.
I believe that Jesus is the incarnation of the Son.

What son are you talking about?!

The Trinitarian answer would be, Jesus pre-existed as a spritual being which is called God

What do Trinitarians do with such spiritual being (God)?

They dissolve him into
1-The pre-existed and eternal spiritual father.

2- The pre-existed and eternal son who was with God from the beginning,and It is he (that son,according to seeker) who incarnated.

John:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

in light of the previous text (as viewed by Trinitarians) ,it is indeed correct when seeker and others trinitarians say
.
The Father and the Son are different persons.

They are really from the same substance (spiritual) but different persons or beings(no difference indeed) ,as one of them was with the other from the beginning,and been sent ,by the wish of the other, to Earth for a while till he came back again sitting on the right hand of the other !.....


3-The pre-existed and eternal Holy Spirit.

The consequences of dissolving such spritual being into (father,son,HS) and insisting on using phrases
such as ,The father is not the son
Jesus is the incarnation of the Son...etc......

leads logically to the believe that Trinity and trithism are two sides of the same coin.

to make the matter worse for trinitarians let's modify a little the sentence of Grace-seeker ,without dissolving the beinghood of God,let's put the proper word in the sentence ,instead of the word Son,let's put the word God

I believe that Jesus is the incarnation of God. .


God is incarnated in Jesus ,for what? to die in the cross and be resurrected again.

would God continue in such state of incanation?

yes God, in his state of incarnation which will last forever, will be sitting on the right hand of(....) guess who?

Hebrews 12:2
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Where such Ideas came from?!

Kersey Graves said:
.


THE WORD AS CREATOR, AS SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY, AND ITS PRE-EXISTENCE
The Word of Oriental Origin

"IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John i. 1.) The doctrine of the divine creative word (from the Greek Logos) appears to have been coeval in its origin with that of the Trinity, if not inseparably connected with it, as it constitutes the second member of the Trinity of "Father, Word, and Holy Ghost" in most of the ancient systems of religion. Works on heathen mythology show that it was anciently a very prevalent custom to personify ideas, thoughts and words into angels and Gods. Words were first personated, and transformed into men, then into angels, and finally into Gods.

And here is foreshadowed the origin of John's personification of "the Word made flesh." It was simply the word of the supreme God as it escaped from his mouth, assuming the form and characteristics of a divine being like himself, and taking position as a secondary God and second member of the Trinity. This was the orient conception, and it appears to have been John's. He evidently had no thought of Christ experiencing human birth, at first, or being born of a woman, but believed, like some of the orientalists, that he came out of the mouth of the Father, and was thus "made flesh." (John i. 2.) Not a word of Christ being born is found in John's Gospel, till after his existence as the Word is spoken of.

The Word As Creator
John also represents the Word as having been the Creator. "All things were made by him." (John i. 3.) Mr. Guizot, in a note on Gibbon's work, says, "According to the Zend-Avesta (the Persian bible, more than three thousand years old), it is by the Word, more ancient than the world, that Ormuzd created the universe."

And the ancient Greek writer Amelias speaking of the God Mercury, says, "And this plainly was the Logos (the Word), by whom all things were made, he being himself eternal, as Heraclitus would say, ... He assumed to be with God, and to be God, and in him everything that was made, has its life and being, who, descending into body, and putting on flesh, took the appearance of a man, though still retaining the majesty of his nature. Here is "the Word made flesh" set forth in most explicit terms.

It was anciently believed that the Word and Breath of God were the same, and possessed a vitalizing power, which, as they issued from his mouth, might be transformed into another being known as a secondary God. The most ancient tradition taught that the Word emanated from the mouth of the principal God, and "became flesh," that is, took form, as the ancient Brahmins expressed it, for the special purpose of serving as agent in the work of creation, that is, to become the creator of the external universe. St. John evidently borrowed this idea. Read his first chapter.

The Hindoo very anciently taught that "the Word had existed with God from all eternity, and when spoken it became a glorious form, the aggregate embodiment of all the divine ideas, and performed the work of creation." And of Chrishna, it is affirmed that "while upon the earth he existed also in heaven." (See Baghavat Gita.)

The Word As A Second Member Of The Trinity
There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost." (i John v. 7.) Observe, the Word is the second person in the Trinity. And this was its post in the Brahman, Hindoo, Persian, and other systems. "All religions," says a writer, "which taught the existence of the Word as a great primeval spirit, represent him as secondary to the supreme. (P.R. 3, vol. ii. p. 336.) "The Hindoos reverenced it next to Brahm." Mr. Higgins cuts the matter short by declaring "The Logos, or Word, was the second person of the Trinity in all the ancient systems, as in the Christian system," which again indicates its heathen origin.

Origins Of The Word As Creator
The motive which prompted a belief in the creative Word may be styled a theological necessity. It was believed that the principal God, like the rulers of earth, was too aristocratic to labor with his own hands. Hence, another God was originated to perform the work of creation, and called "The Word."



To Be Continued
 
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What was the trinity like when the Son was dead? Was it the same, were theb two remaining still god?

Good question. Without wishing to derail the respect within this thread it does kind of put a gaping hole in the trinity beleif.
 
Hi Imam:

You had requested a chapter and verse for my statement: "Jesus went to hell, defeated satan, returned to His body, was resurrected, and was raised to God as stated in the Qur’an."

Please note that it was the portion "and was raised to God" that I was referring to as being "stated in the Qur’an." I trust that you know where to find it.

Regards,
Grenville
 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>


to sum up the matter:

Reasons not to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity


First and most important If the source from which the doctrine might be derived is the gospels ,then the first step is to check the source itself and find out how far it is inerrant ,divine........ I think The bible with the huge ,incredible amount of problems of every kind therein , proved itself as untrustworthy source for not only the trinity but all other issues as well eg, messianic prophecies,blood atonment etc.....


Second: Away from the Question of the Inerrancy, The so called proof text itself of a trinity is controversal ..
eg, John 10:30 "I and my father are one." some would argue it means one in substance other would argue one in purpose..
and many other examples of the same kind etc..................................

in other words trinitarians only validate one kind of understanding of the text and reject any other understanding even if makes some sense..

Third: what makes matter worse is that ,if we assume for the sake of argument that the proof text leaves no room for any speculation ,we would again face another problem.....

If you could bring a list of gospel proofs of a trinity ,you could bring another list of proofs against the trinity eg,Luke 18:19,John 10:34-36),Mark 13:32 ,Matthew 27:46 ,John 5:30 ,John 20:17 etc......

so where are we going at?at best, A self-contradictory concept.

Fourth: an lastly, even if the proof text against trinity is absent completely,and the trinity is there ,we would face another problem ....it is the terms there (God was with God) and (God sitting on the right hand of God)would leave no choice for us to believe that trinity is nothing but a mask hiding Tritheism inside......



Please note that it was the portion "and was raised to God" that I was referring to as being "stated in the Qur’an." I trust that you know where to find it.

Regards,
Grenville

Thanx for your note

peace
 
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Just stopping to say that I am enjoying this thread - peaceful and informative, just how it should be. :)
 
Hi Imam:

Let me clarify that the 30-year study found harmony in the Bible and the Qur'an on the teaching of the Trinity, without damaging the integrity of any verse in the Bible or the Qur'an.
 
Hi Imam:

Let me clarify that the 30-year study found harmony in the Bible and the Qur'an on the teaching of the Trinity, without damaging the integrity of any verse in the Bible or the Qur'an.

30 year old study... meet 2000 year old debate.

Greenville going with your logic, our arguments have been built upon by scholars who studied this topic for their whole lives, not just 30 years. And their work was built upon by their students and so on and so forth so Muslims have built upon this for 1400 years.

1400 > 30


On as sidenote the study severely distorted the Quran's verses, if your answers are anything to go by.
 
On as sidenote the study severely distorted the Quran's verses, if your answers are anything to go by.
Continuing the sidenote. I expect you are right, that you would find the study to severly distort the Qur'an. Can you understand that I might feel the same way about some of the supposed scholars that many Muslims cite claiming that they represent Christian teaching? I find many of them, especially people like the Jesus Debate, as severly distorting biblical teaching.
 
Continuing the sidenote. I expect you are right, that you would find the study to severly distort the Qur'an. Can you understand that I might feel the same way about some of the supposed scholars that many Muslims cite claiming that they represent Christian teaching? I find many of them, especially people like the Jesus Debate, as severly distorting biblical teaching.

Those are debates between Muslims and Christians, not a 3rd party telling them something else.

In addition to this both you and I know one of us is right and the other wrong. I am simply objecting to Greenville's claim that both are perfectly right which he doesn't prove by citing any verses.

The Christian-Muslim debate centers around evidence.
 
Hi Imam:

Let me clarify that the 30-year study found harmony in the Bible and the Qur'an on the teaching of the Trinity, without damaging the integrity of any verse in the Bible or the Qur'an.

Excuse me, Do you mean you made a compared study of the Quran and the Bible for 30 years? or someone else and you read their material?

If so How to harmonize the Quran and the Gospels in the issue of the Trinity?
Peace
 
Excuse me, Do you mean you made a compared study of the Quran and the Bible for 30 years? or someone else and you read their material?

If so How to harmonize the Quran and the Gospels in the issue of the Trinity?
Peace

He also claims that the Quran was revealed specifically for Muhammad, whatever that means.
 
He also claims that the Quran was revealed specifically for Muhammad, whatever that means.

The revealed books from Allah are: the Torah (Tawrah), the Psalms (Zabur), the Gospel (Injeel) and the Qur’an. The Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him, as the final book of Guidance. Among all these books, it is only the Qur’an that remains unchanged, in its original revealed form
 
In addition to this both you and I know one of us is right and the other wrong. I am simply objecting to Greenville's claim that both are perfectly right which he doesn't prove by citing any verses.
I object to Greenville's claim as well. I once had hopes that there could be some sort of syntheisis between Islam and Christianity, but given what the Qur'an has to say about the crucifixion in contrast to what the Bible has to say, and given the Qur'an's misunderstand of Christian teachings regarding the Trinity (for instance we do not say three, trinitarian Christianity most definitely claims that there is only one God, not three), nor the does Christianity make a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Mother, though the Qur'an appears to teach that Christianity holds to this -- thus, it seems that the two books are irreconcilable to each other.

Perhaps if Muslims held that the Qur'an was not the direct dictation of Allah, but was rathered the inspired but imperfect musings of Muhammed, there might be a possibilty to find more common ground. But I know that isn't going to happen. Given these differences, then, I think the best that we can hope for is some degree of mutual respect of one another as persons who truly desire to serve, follow, and submit to God and who following God's commands also then desire to live in love and charity with our fellow men and women regardless of religion.
 
He also claims that the Quran was revealed specifically for Muhammad, whatever that means.

Good grief AKK. Why are you misrepresenting my statements? Please re-read the relevant posts again.

Regarding 'Brothers Kept Apart". The mature response to claims of truth is to examine them before making conclusive statements. It takes no effort whatsoever, to simply dismiss 30 years of research.

Let me encourage you to obtain a copy from your local library, and then explain to us what you disagree with.

Regards,
Grenville
 
nor the does Christianity make a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Mother, though the Qur'an appears to teach that Christianity holds to this -- .

According to that flawed approach ,one could argue that the Quran view christians and Jews as polytheist for the reason (taking a great deal of priests as gods) as long as it mentions :
Holy Quran 9:31 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. .

Anyway all such verses been explained linguistically well,in previous posts..eg, http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134280510-quran-trinity.html
and no excuse for christians or others too,for misunderstanding the exact meanings in Arabic and Islamic terms...



given the Qur'an's misunderstand of Christian teachings regarding the Trinity (for instance we do not say three, trinitarian Christianity most definitely claims that there is only one God, not three).

I find it astonishing whenever I find a christian accuses a Non trinitarian of attacking the trinity cause he doesn't understand it !!! ,as the fact Trinitarians themselves confess it to be a mystery !

Wikipedia

Trinitarians say that "the doctrine of the Trinity is a deep mystery that cannot be fathomed by the finite mind". Criticism of the trinitarian doctrine includes the argument that its "mystery" is essentially an inherent irrationality, where the persons of God are claimed to share completely a single divine substance, the "being of God", and yet not partake of each others' identity. the perplexity of the Trinitarian arguments, which has included the use of philosophy, is contrary to the Biblical principles of simplicity and clarity in doctrine.


All those non-Trinitarians (not only Muslims,but also the rest of the whole world apart from the trinitarians from the very beginning during the formulation of the creed) criticized the creed ,and all agreed that Trinity and Tritheism are synonymous.....

Not only Muslims and Jews but also all the non-Trinitarians ,described the creed as a cornerstone of polytheism

The Church in History 1964 B. K. Kuiper
"The heathen believe in many gods. Arius thought that to believe that the Son is God as well as that the Father is God would mean that there are two Gods, and that therefore the Christians would be falling back into heathenism."

Documents of the Christian Church 2nd Ed 1963 Henery Bettenson

"The decisions of Nicea were really the work of a minority, and they were misunderstood and disliked by many"The majority of the bishops at the council of Nicea believed in what is called subordinationism, which is a belief that Jesus Christ is subordinate to God the Father, not coequal, not coeternal, and not God the Son. The teachings of Arius were condemned in 325, but the teachings of Arius did not die, by 359 Arianism was widely accepted, that is until the minority trinitarian bishops found another emperor that they could get to propose their trinitarian creed at the Council of Constantinople in 381.


Voltair:

-- That to maintain, as do their adversaries, that there are several distinct "persons" in the Divine Essence, and that it is not the eternal who is the only True God, but that the Son and the Holy Ghost must be added to them, is to introduce the crudest and most dangerous error into the church of Jesus Christ, since it manifestly encourages polytheism.
- That it implies a contradiction to say that there is only one God and that nevertheless there are three "persons", each of which is truly God.
-- That this distinction, one essence and three persons, was never in scripture.
-- That it is obviously false, since it is certain that there are no fewer "essences" than "persons", nor "persons" than "essences".
That the three persons of the Trinity are either three different substances, or accidents of the divine essence, or that same essence without distinction.
-- That in the first case three gods are created.
That in the second case God is composed of accidents and one worships accidents and metamorphoses accidents into persons.

-- That in the third case an indivisible subject is uselessly and groundlessly divided, and what is not distinguished in itself is distinguished into "three".

-- That if it is said that the three "personalities" are neither different substances in the divine essence, nor accidents of that essence, one would have to be at some pains to convince oneself that they are anything.

-- That it must not be believed that the most rigid and the most convinced "Trinitarians" themselves have any clear idea of the manner in which the three "hypostases" subsist in God without dividing his substance and consequently without multiplying it.

-- That Saint Augustine himself, after he had advanced a thousand reasonings as false as they are obscure on this subject, was obliged to admit that nothing intelligible could be said about it. Then they quote this father's words, which are in fact very singular: "When it is asked," says he, "what are the three, human language is found inadequate, and there are no terms to express them: yet it is said that there are "three persons", not in order to say something, but because we must speak and not remain silent. "Dictum est tres personae, non ut aliquid diceretur, sed ne taceretur"." (De Trinitate, V. ix).
-- That when they are asked what they understand by this word "person", they explain it only by saying that it is a certain incomprehensible distinction that causes one to distinguish in a numerically single nature a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost.

-- That the explanation they give of the terms "to beget" and "to proceed" is not more satisfactory since it comes down to saying that these terms indicate certain incomprehensible relationships between the three persons of the Trinity.

-- That from all this we can gather that the basic argument between them and the orthodox turns on the question whether there are in god three distinctions of which we have no notion and between which there are certain relationships of which we do not have any notion either.

From all this they conclude that it would be wiser to abide by the authority of the apostles, who never spoke of the Trinity, and to banish from religion for ever all terms which are not in the scriptures, such as Trinity, person, essence, hypostasis, hypostatic and personal union, incarnation, generation, procession, and so many more like them, which, being absolutely meaningless, since they have no real representative in nature, can provoke only false, vague, obscure and incomplete ideas in the understanding.

Other Quotes



Bernard Lonergan “The Trinity is a matter of five notions or properties, four relations, three persons, two processions, one substance or nature, and no understanding.”


Man’s Religions John B. Noss 1968
"The doctrine of the trinity he [Michael Servetus] felt to be a Catholic perversion and himself to be a good New Testament Christian in combating it. . . According to his conception, a trinity composed of three distinct persons in one God is a rational impossibility;"


The Encyclopedia Americana 1956
"Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian (believing in one God). The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."

Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."


The New Encyclopedia Britannica 1976
"Neither the word trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4). . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."


The Story of Civilization: Part III, Caesar and Christ, 1944, pp. 594-595 .
“It seems incredible that the Apocalypse and the Fourth Gospel should have come from the same hand. The Apocalypse is Jewish poetry, the Fourth Gospel is Greek philosophy....Just as Philo, learned in Greek speculation, had felt a need to rephrase Judaism in forms acceptable to the logic-loving Greeks, so John…sought to give a Greek philosophical tinge to the mystic Jewish doctrine that the Wisdom of God was a living being, and to the Christian doctrine that Jesus was the Messiah. Consciously or not, he continued Paul’s work of detaching Christianity from Judaism.…Now the pagan world—even the anti-Semitic world—could accept him as its own. Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it.”—


Those who claim to be true monotheists and yet believe in the Trinitarian formula ,remind me of the Egyptian proverb...

(I believed you when I listened to your words ,yet feel wonder when I see what you do)


As I said before the problem is not our misunderstanding what Trinity Is, it is the Trinitarian failure to understand what trinity ISN't

....
peace
 
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I find it astonishing whenever I find a christian accuses a Non trinitarian of attacking the trinity cause he doesn't understand it !!! ,as the fact Trinitarians themselves confess it to be a mystery !
My problem is not when people say that they can't understand it. It isn't even when they say they disagree with it. My problem is when people attack the concept of the Trinity for saying something that we trinitarians never actually claim that it says.


We confess it is a mystery as to how it is true. But we are clear as to what it is that is true. There is just one God. We never say there are three gods. Yet this one God makes himself known to us in three persons. How it is that God is three-in-one is a mystery. But that he is a three-in-one divine being (singular), and not three seperate gods is very clear to us.

As I said before the problem is not our misunderstanding what Trinity Is, it is the Trinitarian failure to understand what trinity ISN't
So, as you can see, we have no problem saying what trinity isn't. It isn't three seperate gods. Saying that it isn't three is the very definition of Trinity.
 
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Grace,
You say one God but three persons, if so does that mean he is one person at a time or all three at the same time.
 
Grace,
You say one God but three persons, if so does that mean he is one person at a time or all three at the same time.

It's God the father, God the Son and God the Spirit. They are three but are known as ONE and act upon the duties as ONE Whole entity. Don't know how anybody could digest this theory but Grace Seeker is one of those people and I commend him on that cause it must take alot of energy. You will just have to accept that its a theory that only a selected group of individuals will ever accept and you have to have a certain mental structure to fathom. I guess you and I fall out of that group of individuals.
 
Grace,
You say one God but three persons, if so does that mean he is one person at a time or all three at the same time.
All three at the same time, from before time even began and until after time is no more, throughout all of eternity. There never was, is, or will be a time when God is not Father, Son, and Spirit, all three persons in one being.
 

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