List why I was not satisfied with my Ex religion

[Amigo]

So prophet Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus (pbut) etc. all did not interpret the OT correctly when they clearly said and commanded "Worship the ONE God, our God"? And only saul of tarsus and his fans had the correct interpretation of the OT?

Some books of the OT did not exist at the time of Moses, David, and Solomon.
As about Jesus, and Paul, and me, we all still say the same thing: God is one.
I will not be responding to this kind of questions which you already know the fact. I only mentioned this in passing because I had to address the OT issue.

 

[Amigo]

Have you actually read bible?

Here's a tiny sample of conflicts in the gospels:

1) How many generations were there between Abraham to David? Matthew 1:17 lists fourteen generations. Matthew 1:2 lists thirteen generations.
2) Is Paul lying? In Acts 20:35 Paul told people "to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn’t Paul guilty of deception?
3) When did the leper become not a leper? (Matthew 8:13 & 8:14) Jesus healed the leper before visiting the house. (Mark 1:29-30 & 1:40-42) Jesus healed the leper after visiting Simon Peter’s house.
4) Who approached Jesus? (Matthew 8:5-7) The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant. (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7) The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews.
5) Was she dead or just dying? (Matthew 9:18) He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead. (Luke 8:41-42) Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying.
6) Just what did Jesus instruct them to take? (Matthew 10:10) Jesus instructed them not to take a staff, not to wear sandals. (Mark 6:8-9) Jesus instructed his disciples to wear sandals and take a staff on their journey.
7) When did John find out Jesus was the Messiah? (Matthew 11:2-3) While imprisoned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the messiah. (Luke 7:18-22) While imprisoned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the Messiah. (John 1 :29-34,36) John already knew Jesus was the Messiah.
8) Who made the request? (Matthew 20:20-21) Their mother requested that James and John, Zebedee’s children, should sit beside Jesus in his Kingdom. (Mark 10:35-37) James and John, Zebedee’s children, requested that they should sit beside Jesus in his Kingdom.
9) What animals were brought to Jesus? (Matthew 21:2-7) two of the disciples brought Jesus an ass and a colt from the village of Bethphage. (Mark 11:2-7) They brought him only a colt.
10) When did the fig tree hear of its doom? (Matthew 21:17-19) Jesus cursed the fig tree after purging the temple. (Mark 11:14-15 & 20) He cursed it before the purging.
11) When did the fig tree keel? (Matthew 21:9) The fig tree withered immediately. and the disciples registered surprise then and there. (Mark 11:12-14 & 20) The morning after Jesus cursed the fig tree, the disciples noticed it had withered and expressed astonishment.
12) Was John the Baptist Elias? "This is Elias which was to come." Matthew 11:14 "And they asked him, what then? Art thou Elias? And he said I am not." John l:21
13) Who was the father of Joseph? Matthew 1:16 The father of Joseph was Jacob. Luke 3 :23 The father of Joseph was Heli. Christians shall try to LIE and tell you that one is the heritage of Mary and the other Joseph. This is utter bull****, the Hebrew and Greek cultures NEVER regarded the bloodline of the mother. They were patriarchal societies which only concerned themselves with paternal lineage.
14) How many generations were there from the Babylon captivity to Christ? Matthew 1:17 Fourteen generations, Matthew 1:12-16 Thirteen generations.
15) Matthew 2:15, 19 & 21-23 The infant Christ was taken into Egypt. Luke 2:22 & 39 The infant Christ was NOT taken to Egypt.
16) Matthew 5:1-2 Christ preached his first sermon on the mount. Luke 6:17 & 20 Christ preached his first sermon in the plain.
17) John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. Mark 1:14 John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. John 1:43 & 3:22-24
18) What was the nationality of the woman who besought Jesus? Matthew 15:22 "And behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, Have mercy on me, 0 Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil." Mark 7:26 "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation, and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter."
19) How many blind men besought Jesus? Matthew 20:30 Two blind men. Luke 18:35-38 Only one blind man.
20) Where did the devil take Jesus first? (Matthew 4:5-8) The Devil took Jesus first to the parapet of the temple, then to a high place to view all the Kingdoms of the world. (Luke 4:5-9) The Devil took Jesus first to a high place to view the kingdoms, then to the parapet of the temple.
21) Can one pray in public? (Matthew 6:5-6) Jesus condemned public prayer. (1 Timothy 2:8) Paul encouraged public prayer.
22) If we decide to do good works, should those works be seen? Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works." 1 Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that ... they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." This contradicts: Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them…that thine alms may be in secret." Matthew 23:3-5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works ... all their works they do for to be seen of men."
23) Who did Jesus tell the Lord’s Prayer to? (Matthew 5:1, 6:9-13 & 7:28) Jesus delivered the Lord’s Prayer during the Sermon on the Mount before the multitudes. (Luke 11:1-4) He delivered it before the disciples alone, and not as part of the Sermon on the Mount.
24) When was Christ crucified? Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour and they crucified him." John 19:14-15 "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour; and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your king…Shall I crucify your king?" John 19:14-15.
25) The two thieves reviled Christ. (Matthew 27:44 & Mark 15:32) Only one of the thieves reviled Christ. Luke 23:39-40.
26) In 1 Corinthians 1:17 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to preach the gospel") Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them…" Clearly one of these people is wrong, either way, it’s a contradiction.
27) When did Satan enter Judas? Satan entered into Judas while at the supper. John 13:27 Satan entered Judas before the supper. Luke 23:3-4 & 7
28) How many women came to the sepulcher? John 20:1 Only one woman went, Mary Magdalene. Matthew 28:1 Mary Magdalene and the "other Mary" (Jesus’ mother) went.
29) Mark 16:2 It was sunrise when the two women went to the sepulcher. John 20:1 It was still dark (before sunrise) when Mary Magdalene went alone to the sepulcher.
30) There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulcher and they were standing up. Luke 24:4 There was only one angel seen and he was sitting down. Mark 28:2-5
31) How many angels were within the sepulcher? John 20:11-12 two, Mark 16:5 one.
32) The Holy Ghost bestowed at Pentecost. Acts 1:5-8 & 2:1-4 The holy Ghost bestowed before Pentecost. John 20:22
33) Where did Jesus first appear to the eleven disciples? In a room in Jerusalem. Luke 24:32-37 On a mountain in Galilee. Matthew 28:15-17
34) Where did Christ ascend from? From Mount Olivet. Acts 1:9-12 From Bethany. Luke 24:50-51
35) Can all sins be forgiven? (Acts 13:39) All sins can be forgiven. Great, I’m happy to know God is so merciful, but wait (Mark 3:29) Cursing or blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.
36) The Elijah mystery: (Malachi 4:5) Elijah must return before the final days of the world. (Matthew 11:12-14) Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah. (Matthew 17:12- 13) Jesus insists that Elijah has already come, and everyone understood him to mean John the Baptist. (Mark 9:13) Jesus insists that Elijah has already come. (John 1:21) John the Baptist maintained that he was not Elijah.
37) Who purchased the potter’s field? Acts 1:18 The field was purchased by Judas. John 20:1 The potter’s field was purchased by the chief priests.
38) Paul’s attendants heard the miraculous voice and stood speechless. Acts 9:7 Paul’s attendants did not hear the voice and were prostrate. Acts 22:9 & 26:14
39) Who bought the Sepulcher? Jacob, Josh 24:32 Abraham, Acts 7:16
40) Was it lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death? "The Jews answered him, we have a law, and by our law he ought to die." John 19:7 "The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death." John 18:31
41) Has anyone ascended up to heaven? Elijah went up to heaven: "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man." John 3:13
42) Is scripture inspired by God? "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2 Timothy 3:16 compared to: "But I speak this by permission and not by commandment." 1 Corinthians 7:6 "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord." 1 Corinthians 7:12 "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord" 2 Corinthians.

Yeah, that's what you get when you don't take the medicine according to the doctor's instruction.
Right now, I am listening to the story of Adam and Eve eating of the forbidden tree...
There is a law on how to approch sacred things you know.

 

[brmm]

Coming in late, but here is why I left Christianity: I was raised Pentecostal, the variety of Christianity that has 'speaking in tongues'. My father is United Pentecostal, and my mother was Assembly of God (same as Billy Graham). They disagreed on some points about baptism and such, so I'm pretty sure they both thought the other was going to hell.

The funny thing is, that my mother was devout when I was younger, while my father didn't go to church. By the time I was 12 or 13 I had read the New Testament in KJV and Good News translations. About that time, my father got very religious. We were going to church three or four times a week. I had always been devout and resolved to read the Bible, cover-to-cover, around the age of 15, I think.

First I read the King James. I considered that maybe I just wasn't understanding it right because of the archaic English. So I read it again in a modern English translation, The Living Bible, which also had a lot of useful footnotes.

Then I went from being a Pentecostal Christian to being an agnostic theist (believed in a creator, but not in a particular religion). I noticed contradictions, and I had been told there were none. I saw the character and nature of Yahweh change over the course of the OT, and a radical personality change in the NT, in a way that is only apparent if you read the Bible front-to-back. I read of God commanding atrocities. At the end, I could not believe the Bible was a product of divine inspiration, it seemed very human-inspired to me.

It took about 20 more years before I started thinking of myself as an atheist.

If you accept inshallah, I wish to invite you for Islam, the religion of our God.
What I can say for now, Islam in the Holy Quran, so if you did not accept the book (Quran) you will not accept the faith (Islam). I think you know that there is not even a single letter difference between any 2 Arabic Quran in the world since the time of Mohammed PBUH, but the translations are different.

I have posted on line, one of the best translations for the meanings of the Holy Quran, for Dr. Mahmud Ghali. PDF file with active links.
I wish you will have the time to read and judge it by yourself inshallah.

http://www.4shared.com/document/t0OLrVzR/­Quran_Translation_by_Dr_Ghali.­html 

You can find more translations on www.quran.com

BRMM

 

[Ramadhan]

Some books of the OT did not exist at the time of Moses, David, and Solomon.

And yet prophet Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus preached and taught the same thing: Worship the ONE God. They never taught "worship The father, Jesus and holy spirit".
Jesus stated, "O Israel, OUR lord is ONE". This clear statement by Jesus shows that Jesus is not part of Godship in anyway.
Jesus never said "I am god" or "worship me", while God in the OT in numerous stances commanded us to worship Him, the ONLY God. In fact, Jesus reiterated that his followers must not worship him:
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”
John 17:3 – NIV

“A certain ruler asked him: ‘Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’
‘Why do you call me good?’ Jesus answered. ‘No one is good – except God alone.’”
Luke 18:18-19 – NIV
“The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
And he said to him, ‘I will give you all their authority and splendour, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
So if you worship me, it will all be yours.’
Jesus answered, ‘It is written: “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.”’”
Luke 4:5-8 – NIV

“One of the teachers of the law came and noticed them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’
‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
The second is this: “Love your neighbour as yourself.” There is no commandment greater than these.’
‘Well said, teacher,’ the man replied. ‘You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
To love him with all your heart, with you all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself is more important that all burnt offerings and sacrifices.’
When Jesus saw that he has answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’ And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.”
Mark 12:28-34 – NIV
But do not think that this advice was given to Israel or to his own people only. Rather this is the basis of the teachings of all the Prophets. The same advice appears in the Gospel of Matthew, in similar wording, after which he says:
“All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:39 – NIV

As about Jesus, and Paul, and me, we all still say the same thing: God is one.

Jesus said God is one, while saul of tarsus and you said "God is the father, jesus and holy spirit"

I will not be responding to this kind of questions which you already know the fact. I only mentioned this in passing because I had to address the OT issue.

Right. I understand your difficulty in referring to your scriptures, because you will find conflicting messages in the NT, which shows it is not of divine origin.

 

[Ramadhan]

Yeah, that's what you get when you don't take the medicine according to the doctor's instruction.

As I would have expected that you would be evasive and not confronting the reality of your bible. Let me ask you in plain language:
are those conflicts and contradictions that I have just showed you real or not?
Are those conflicts in your bible, or do you have any other set of bible? I understand the catholics have 73 books in their bible, while protestants bible only has 66 books, so protestants think catholics have non-divine books in their bible.

Right now, I am listening to the story of Adam and Eve eating of the forbidden tree... There is a law on how to approch sacred things you know.

I would think this is funny if not so sad. Reminds me of those ostriches who bury their heads in the sand to avoid confronting unpleasant truth and reality.

 

[Amigo]

are those conflicts and contradictions that I have just showed you real or not?

See, you can't see what I am trying to tell you.
Of course they are real.
As real as you will find if you try to read English on pages of mathematical formulas.
I have told you before, and let me repeat it again. To Christian, the Bible is one Word and those who compiled it meant to present that one Word.

I will not engage in any quote discussion. I gladly do it with fellow Catholics and sometimes Orthodox, that's all. When you speak, it is sensible to speak in the same language with people you are in dialogue with. When it comes to non-Christians, especially you, our languages are very different perhaps beyond comparison. First notice that the Bible not only is written by many people, but from different times, writting modes, intentions, ...


Now, when you are ready and have time to learn the Christian alphabet, let me know. And once you know the language, I will discuss with you about our Sacred Scriptures if you still don't the Christian Faith.

 

[Riana17]

See, you can't see what I am trying to tell you.
Of course they are real.

I will not engage in any quote discussion. I gladly do it with fellow Catholics and sometimes Orthodox, that's all. When you speak, it is sensible to speak in the same language with people you are in dialogue with. When it comes to non-Christians, especially you, our langues are as different as perhaps English and Chinese. I see that you compare the Koran and the Bible. That can perhaps be like comparing the Chinese alphabet with the English alphabet.
Your critiques to me sounds like me telling a chinese man: what is this? how can you say that this is even a language? can't you see that these are just imperfect drawing of a child who doesn't even know how to handle a pen? can a reasonable person seriously read this? ...
Imagine how a chinese fellow would look at me saying this

Now, when you are ready and have time to learn the Christian alphabet, let me know. And once you know the language, I will discuss with you about our Sacred Scriptures.

Brother, whatever your believe is , pls stick around in IB
we like to see you here

salam

 

[Hiroshi]

1. Catholic was founded by HUMAN - the word christian or catholic will never be found in bible as well as the word "BIBLE" itself

I am not sure if this has been answered already. But the word "Christian" does appear in the Bible in Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16.

 

[Ramadhan]

See, you can't see what I am trying to tell you. Of course they are real. I will not engage in any quote discussion. I gladly do it with fellow Catholics and sometimes Orthodox, that's all. When you speak, it is sensible to speak in the same language with people you are in dialogue with. When it comes to non-Christians, especially you, our langues are as different as perhaps English and Chinese. I see that you compare the Koran and the Bible. That can perhaps be like comparing the Chinese alphabet with the English alphabet. Your critiques to me sounds like me telling a chinese man: what is this? how can you say that this is even a language? can't you see that these are just imperfect drawing of a child who doesn't even know how to handle a pen? can a reasonable person seriously read this? ... Imagine how a chinese fellow would look at me saying this Now, when you are ready and have time to learn the Christian alphabet, let me know. And once you know the language, I will discuss with you about our Sacred Scriptures if you still don't the Christian Faith.

First, let's get one thing straight: I did not even compare Bible to Qur'an. Show me the evidence otherwise.
There are other threads dedicating to compare bible and qur'an, you are more than welcome to contribute to explaining bible in those threads.

Now, I am glad you explained to us things about christianity and bible which I didn't know before. I think now I can make several conclusions, correct me if I'm wrong:
1. You agree that there are countless conflicts not only within bible, but within NT, and even within gospels (this in itself conflicted with your previous statement that there are no conflicts in the NT
2. Although bible is written in english, as a non-christian, even if I understand english, I am not supposed to have discussions about bible
3. From this, I can only incur that bible is not intended for everyone, and based on your explanation, bible is reserved to those who have learnt christian alphabets and language
4. Christians have their own language based on christian alphabets.

And if your explanation represent majority christians, I think people now can conclude for themselves what christianity is

 

[Ramadhan]

I am not sure if this has been answered already. But the word "Christian" does appear in the Bible in Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16.

I think she meant the canonical gospels.

 

[Amigo]

Sorry guys, I just edited my post but the point is still essentially the same. I did not notice that you had posted replies already. Sorry again

 

[Ramadhan]

There is a law on how to approch sacred things you know.

I can infer from this that you believe bible is sacred, but how come something is sacred when it is full of errors, contradictions, and even proven fabrications?

 

[Amigo]

Now, I am glad you explained to us things about christianity and bible which I didn't know before. I think now I can make several conclusions, correct me if I'm wrong:

To be fair, since you posted these before I had edited the post, I will address them.

1. Although bible is written in english, as a non-christian, even if I understand english, I am not supposed to have discussions about bible

A reasonable discussion. Respect the Christian Faith in which the Bible was compiled and the books of the NT written.

2. From this, I can only incur that bible is not intended for everyone, and based on your explanation, bible is reserved to those who have learnt christian alphabets and language

One who is unwilling to learn the language does not really want to understand it and should not pretend to understand it.

3. Christians have their own language based on christian alphabets.

I hoped you are not being too childish and reading me to litteraly, I suspected you would do this anyway, so I edited the post to make it more precise and leave less room for wrong assumptions.

And if your explanation represent majority christians, I think people now can conclude for themselves what christianity is

They always do

 

[Amigo]

Brother, whatever your believe is , pls stick around in IB we like to see you here

Well, I don't believe that for the reasons you know. But as you guys like to say, Allah knows best.
I reply to good message, and generally ignore bad ones. So I tought I will reply to this one and say something. I don't enjoy ignore to anyone, but I do it when forced to. God's holy name is more important than people's feelings.

 

[Ramadhan]

A reasonable discussion. Respect the Christian Faith in which the Bible was compiled and the books of the NT written.

what do you mean by reasonable?
Do you not think that reasonability should be judged on objective measures, such as:
- always back up what you say with evidence, facts, scriptural verses, etc?
- or do you think reasonable is freedom to say anything without any back up?
if you think it's the first, then I think I have always been reasonable, as I always said what I think of christianity with evidence even from christians own sources (bible verses, bible scholars findings, etc), and if I had something I did not understand, I asked you about them, many of them you actually refused to answer.
So who's reasonable and who's not?
As for being respectful, I consider myself much more respectful towards Jesus (as) than any christians in this forum. I send prayer of peace towards him everytime I write his name. I have never seen any christians even send salam to Jesus (as) in this forum.

One who is unwilling to learn the language does not really want to understand it and should not pretend to understand it.

What is the requirement of leaning the christian language, where one can learn the christian language, and what is the difference between christian language with the language that common people actually speak/understand?

I hoped you are not being too childish and reading me to litteraly, I suspected you would do this anyway, so I edited the post to make it more precise and leave less room for wrong assumptions.

Even after your edit, you are still talking about christian alphabet:

Now, when you are ready and have time to learn the Christian alphabet, let me know. And once you know the language, I will discuss with you about our Sacred Scriptures if you still don't the Christian Faith.

The new addition is this:

When it comes to non-Christians, especially you, our languages are very different perhaps beyond comparison.

We all are human, and we can use our common sense and logic to discern something, which is the same for you and me. unless you speak in tongues, which I admit I don't understand.

First notice that the Bible not only is written by many people, but from different times, writting modes, intentions, ...

So you agree that the conflicts in the bible is caused by writing of many people (anonymous, I assume), writing modes (like what?), intentions (what are those intentions?).
Now, you cannot deny that they are countless conflicts even within gospels, so with those conflicting statements, how do we know the truths from the untruths?

They always do

Yes they do, and then those who do, they become either atheists or revert to Islam.

 

[Amigo]

Yes they do, and then those who do, they become either atheists or revert to Islam.

Yes, if they didn't or after they splint into denominations.

 

[Amigo]

what do you mean by reasonable? Do you not think that reasonability should be judged on objective measures, such as: - always back up what you say with evidence, facts, scriptural verses, etc? - or do you think reasonable is freedom to say anything without any back up? if you think it's the first, then I think I have always been reasonable, as I always said what I think of christianity with evidence even from christians own sources (bible verses, bible scholars findings, etc), and if I had something I did not understand, I asked you about them, many of them you actually refused to answer. So who's reasonable and who's not?

You can not be reasonable without charity/goodness.
I never intentionally leave any real/sincere/respectful question unanswered. I respect truth and goodness.

What is the requirement of leaning the christian language, where one can learn the christian language, and what is the difference between christian language with the language that common people actually speak/understand?

love of truth and loving kindness.
Truth dwels in Love.
Those who don't love can not have access to truth.
The holy Garden is protected by cherubim with flaming swords.
They purify kind hearts and lead them into the more and more clarity of the mysteries.

So you agree that the conflicts in the bible is caused by writing of many people (anonymous, I assume), writing modes (like what?), intentions (what are those intentions?). Now, you cannot deny that they are countless conflicts even within gospels, so with those conflicting statements, how do we know the truths from the untruths?

hehe, the justice of God is unfailing. Our hearts see according to their purity. I said 'hearts' not 'eyes'. Congratulations you have discovered an other conflict! hearts have no eyes!

 

[Ramadhan]

You can not be reasonable without charity/goodness.

Does this mean you are not reasonable?
Because you have not been charitable in this forum by refusing to give answers that many members in this section seek from you.

I never intentionally leave any real/sincere/respectful question unanswered.

Whether intentional or not, you have left my real/sincere/respectful question unanswered.

I respect truth and goodness.

Maybe so, but what you have shown in this section showed otherwise.

love of truth and loving kindness. Truth dwels in Love. Those who don't love can not have access to truth. The holy Garden is protected by cherubim with flaming swords. They purify kind hearts and lead them into the more and more clarity of the mysteries.

I love truth and kindness (that's why I am a muslim), and so I dwell in Love, and this mean I have access to truth.
So now, can I go to The holy Garden protected by cherubim with flaming swords who purify my heart and lead me into the more and more clarity of the mysteries?

Or in more practical terms: Can I now discuss the bible with you?

hehe, the justice of God is unfailing. Our hearts see according to their purity. I said 'hearts' not 'eyes'. Congratulations you have discovered an other conflict! hearts have no eyes!

Yes, the justice of God is unfailing, but it seems the bible is failing.
so our hearts see according to their purity, and your hearts see that it is acceptable that men corrupted the words of God.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So what was Christianity founded on? If it was not the OT which you claim to be only for the Jews then was it on the NT?

According to the majority of those who responded the "Who was the founder of Christianity" thread, it was neither the OT or the NT, but more specifically Paul's teachings.


The way I understand what Amigo has thus far said, it appears that like many in that thread Amigo thinks that Christianity was not founded on any written record at all either, but the teachings of a person. And in contradistinction to the majority in that other thread, it appears that Amigo thinks those teachings on which the early nascent Christian community was founded are those of the apostles with regard to the person of Jesus.

This isn't to invalidate your argument that scripture would be important. The early church did indeed have access to the Jewish scriptures -- most notably in the form of the LXX -- and would create their own in time. But that which formed them into a distinct community that would separate itself off from Judaism were the stories about Jesus that first circulated in the form of oral tradition and then incorporated into the liturgy that directed worship. These things shaped much of the future of the church before there was any written NT and more than the OT ever would.

Whether you like it or not a religion is based upon its scriptures and NOTHING from the teachings of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus confirms ANY of your fundamental beliefs regarding Christianity. That is why you keep moving away from your scriptures.

Let me ask you a question, to see if you really think this is true: Was the Qur'an and the Hadeeth as you have it today required for the existence of Islam as a religion taught by the Prophet? Indeed, didn't the concept of Islam and of an Ummah exist long before the recitation of the scriptures that Muhammad was to receive had been complete? If that is so, then the Islam was not based on the Qur'an. It was based on an idea, that of Tawheed. The Qur'an (at least the complete Qur'an) would come later.

So too in Christianity. The idea of a new community created out of being united with God "in Christ" came into existence before the books that today tell that story of how God moved in and through Christ to reconcile us to himself were ever written down.

Thus, whether we are speaking of Islam or Christianity, we first had the message, and then the written record of that message. But the community affirmed that the written record was indeed that which was to be preserved as the scriptures of that faith community. So, first the message, then the faith community is establish, then a written record of that message is provided, and finally the community codifies this written record as its scriptures.

 

[Mister Agenda]

You seem to suppose that Christianity is/was founded on the Bible and that Faith is founded on books. Ever considered that the first Christians did not even have the NT and that the Christian Faith existed even before any of those Gospels and Epistles were written? Also, Jesus and Christians were always at odd with Jews over their interpretation of the OT. The OT interpretation that conflict with the NT is not really a Christian interpretation but a common Jewish/human interpretation, that very one which Jesus and the first Christians opposed and which actually causes Christianity to evolve separately from Judaism.

An other fact is that the first gentiles Christians did not even have the OT (this was generally a jewish document even though it contains some stories which involves the whole world).

I think Christianity would be better served by a revival of Marcionism (chuck the OT) since it is trying to brand itself as a kinder, gentler religion. I'm all for religions being kinder and gentler. I'm sure if I'd been raised Episcopelian, I'd have had lower expectations of the Bible. I have since observed that fundamentalism makes for an intense but brittle faith.

You may have a lighter load of cognitive dissonance than I did, but at this point, if there's a God, whether Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, or some other; he (or whatever pronoun applies) would know how to reach me, and is welcome to.