Living in Non-Muslim lands: What's the excuse?

[Argamemnon]

I think those who left their home lands with the goal of gaining material wealth are in error and should return to their homelands.

It is permissible to live in a non-Muslim country as long as you are free to practice your religion, which is the case in the country I live in. If I migrated to a Muslim country, my life would be miserable as I would face poverty, why would I even consider it?

 

[Amadeus85]

It is permissible to live in a non-Muslim country as long as you are free to practice your religion, which is the case in the country I live in. If I migrated to a Muslim country, my life would be miserable as I would face poverty, why would I even consider it?

Dubai,Kuweit, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Bahrain, even Turkey has good economics with good standard of life.

 

[Argamemnon]

Dubai,Kuweit, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Bahrain, even Turkey has good economics with good standard of life.

I'm afraid that's not true. Ask the Pakistanis and Indians living in Dubai, and how they are treated...

 

[Tariqa]

I see some Senior members and high ranking officials came to this post to speak ultimately.. Some of you understand me more than others and some of you would like to rebuttal every single letter i type.. mahshaallah..


I cannot or rather i shall not do the same and but i will answer to those comments and questions i specifically remember..



















I understand the point about Islamic banking and it is ruled as a lesser evil... If you would like to get around this you are welcomed but it would be easier to keep your money overseas and this is the part where you would have to leave to go to a Muslim land if you have no way to practice halal banking..

I can see from the first poster that his intention is not fully correct you see the only reason he wants to go overseas is to study and for halal food.. This is not correct.. the first reason that you should want to go overseas for is for the sake of Allah, the sake of this deen, you should know want and have a need to find the land of the lesser evils for the sake to reduce your sins in Allah's eyes...you should understand this first and treat it as incumbent and obligatory upon you as it is your duty to allah...

Honestly.. i am not moving to Africa or intending to move to Africa because i want.. it is not my first choice.. I currently live in America and i have made up my mind that America is of the top 5 worst countries to live in as of today and there are over 150 countries or more to move. I would be lying if i told you there is no where else to go.. Even Mexico is better than where i live, Jamaica, Brazil Europe anywhere else besides being in this land i assure.. that is why i say majority of the people in non Muslim lands that say there is no where else to go i say they are scared, weak and they do not want to make a sacrifice, to another land, either they are comfortable and are there because they want something money or whatever, and they make these excuses to justify what they want...
If you must know my first choice is a city in Medina.. I understand it is hard to get in so i am making many preparations inshallah...But in the mean time and not just putting all my hope in Medina, i am hopefully trying to get one step closer to Medina from where i am at.. I hear Morocco is good. It may not be the best Muslim land but for now it will do and is indeed a lesser evil inshallah...

Remember brother in these times it is not your choice to want to live in a more Muslim land, it is incumbent upon you, you have no say or choice in this matter.. if you do then bring your reasons and in mostly if not all cases you will have no witness and excuses for your actions which is why i say just accept Islam, all of Islam, not just the parts that you feel you would like to want to do, accept Islam and all of its ruling Prohibitions and obligations...never slacken on the deen so that Allah never slackens or forget you on the day of judgment inshanallh..

The comment about the Amish

Yes this is the most important point of this whole thread... Muslims who are forced to live in non Muslim lands and use this excuse must take a look at the Amish... They are not our examples but its safe to say the amish does something maybe the Muslims should consider...
There is only one contradiction that in Islam we cannot follow the ways of the Amish as the last revelation brought new laws to our religion...

See in Islam it would be OK if we lived like Islam if it wasn't for the fact that living under the kafirs rule is not permissible... You see back in olden times the jurisdictions of lands was not like this.. You could stay in a land and it would be like your own land that you ruled...Nowadays there are many things staying in a non Muslim land that a Muslim cant do, it will go against the kafirs laws and you can be imprisoned which means you will have to obey their laws or go to jail.. The Sharia completely contradicts with western laws... Any Muslim or anyone on this thread that makes a post asking me how cant a Muslim practice his deen just take a look at the shariah laws that a Muslim cannot impose in a non Muslim land.. This is obvious you would go to jail...

I think i want to make on e thing also clear.. Yes it is true i am directing more of my comments to the ones that moved to this land from better lands but they are not the only ones in sin.. Some people came over here for issues like hardship and poverty.. Poverty is not a valid reason to leave a land because it is not risq.. There is no reason a Muslim should choose sin for a "better life".. Also the people that claim their "story is different".. Many times they say they had wars in their countries and when you ask them where did they move to they would say America or some non Muslim land where the fitnah is much greater than a neighboring country of the land they came from and this is very common..

i am also directing many of my comments to those who use the excuse that they were born in this country or something like that and they have no means to leave these haram lands... Or they say there is no where to go because Saudi is strict... I direct many of comments to them because they sound desperate when they ask "well where should we go".. I tell them to ask Allah that and do not ask me that very much because you know better in your heart where you should go then i do.. I can only tell you and advise you wherever you at to leave immediately and don't give me any excuse because in this case many Muslims in non Muslim lands can pack up and leave right now to any land of lesser evils If you are already in a land of lesser evils then pack up again and keep moving until you keep going to the lands with the least evil and if the evils change from year to year until you reach the best place, the land with the least evil came of like the game musical chairs except we are trying to turn the music off..

Again when i say the Muslim are not rallying i mean they are not making it a main concern.. many Muslims just think it is mustahabb.. many Muslims do not see that the obligatory status there is in to leave all lands of kufr, and in our case leave all lands of the greater and greatest kufr, and/or fitnah..

I do not have to fight the Muslims who want to live in these haram lands, nor do i have to fight the Muslims who agree and do not see that Muslim must leave haram lands, nor do i have to fight the Muslims who believe a Muslim can live where ever he wants to live with even if that lands is full of mushriks... I am only here to convey the message... The message combats these people itself so your right, i will continue to fight them even if they don't understand without finger pointing.. This attitude is like telling the man to not give dawah because no one is listening.. Allah hears all things so someone is listening..


I do not understand why many Muslims do not understand that first.. You can only do certain things in non Muslim lands and the recommended things mustahabb in Islam you have a great difficulty in doing. Take a look at the amish... They are a minority, they do not fight the kufr, they do not spread the message, they stick to themselves.. This is fine but why would a Muslim want to make his life so hard in this manner?? Why would not a Muslim not want the best in life?? Why would a Muslim just want to be left alone and not seek the highest reward in life..?? At times this could be prohibited in Islam especially when there is a call for jihad and remember jihad is not something that is nice or something you have a choice in when there is a call to fight you have to fight, lest you be the coward of the muslims....


So obviously these two major issues is a reason why it is virtually impossible to live in a non Muslim land and practice your deen to the fullest... There is too much that a Muslim has to do to just think hijab and salat makes you a Muslim..
Allah tells us to choose the easier path, the path with lesser vices, surely living like the Amish is like living in a mountain secluded.. This is OK for a period of time if you have no other way, only until you can find a way out, this is certainly not the life the Muslims should seek to live or emulate..



What if you lived in a land with no kufr governing system and everyone was free to do whatever they want??

Even if this was possible and we were living in a land with no rules where we can make up our own shariah laws and apply them there is still one thing missing...For one the Muslims should stick to the flock lest the lone sheep gets eaten by the wolf.... A Muslim group would be living in this type of land and unless the majority of the ummah lives there as well they would be the lone flock of the ummah.. It may work but this is obviously not the life we Muslims should strive for... There is also the threat of enemy attacks and a small village would not be ready to stand up to a large land so it is the Muslims duty to gain as much land, troops, and power as possible, never should less be something to settle for..

2 billion Muslims needs to find someplace to go, the closer to Saudi Arabia the better.. It may not be possible for 2 million Muslims to all go at one time but somehow they need to at least make the intention to leave before they feel they do not have to leave at all..and think what they are doing and living in the non Muslim lands they are living in is "dawah"...

Allah has made this whole UNINHABITED world for us to dwell in to set up our rule.. If we cannot because the land is already inhabited then we do spread among ourselves not be the infiltrators and go into these lands, commit sins to change it from the outside.. this is not Islam and we are not a religion of conquerors and world dominon...


Jihad is not fighting fire with fire.. If you go to any of these lands and make it your home, the same lands that you are trying to convert, how in the world do you call that dawah?? How do you expect the people to change their land or leave it when the messanger is just as bad living among the enemies? This is not jihad.. We do not conform and compromise with the enemy and learn their ways and haram customs to get them to learn ours. This is ignorance.. We are inviting them to our banquet.. They should choose to accept or not and not the other way around or anything in between..
Again we do not need a million Muslims in a land trying to get Islam to spread while the ones calling to Islam are not themselves following the message and are not the examples... This was not the method of dawah from the predecessors.. We are talking about dawah trips like business trips not dawah migrations like pilgrimages.. We do not change a land of people like that by migrating among them.. Many times Islam is spread by the sword.. By living among the enemy you are setting yourself up and families in the battle ground.. This is not logical...

If Muslim moves from Saudi to Texas i never said that his prayers will not be accepted but there is a strong chance that his dua's will not be answered... All the salat he makes will not matter until we repents from his sin because the 5 daily salats only purifies one from minor sins and mistakes, one living in a non Muslim lands is continuously in a state of sin until he leaves and repents..

Obviously you do not read many hadiths.. Yes just the mere living among non Muslims can be an action of kufr.. I do not have to think before i speak much because obviously you are missing the point.. When a Muslim lives among a group of people it is not long before that person adapts the customs and ways of that group people this is why Muslims where commanded to be among the Muslims, and bow with those that prostrate.. Living among non Muslims can and may only make that person to grow like them and if they incorporate some kufr in their lives, it is not long before that person incorporates that same action whether indirectly or directly, intentional or unintentional..Muslims are not allowed to put themselves in this harms way and risk it for it is a type of gambling to live in these lands, a gamble with ones deen and even worst for the many Muslim children that go astray raised up in these lands as well..

It is a shame that the Muslims do not see there is more to our religion then the 5 pillars and you are not allowed to exercise the rest of our deen in the current state of life today therefore you cannot find me one land where any Muslim can say that he is free to practice his deen there because he is lacking on many things living in that land....

It is also a shame that the Muslim says that if he goes back to his homeland he faces poverty.. Is he not already in a land of spiritual poverty?? What would be worst???May Allah forgive these weak Muslims indeed.

 

[rpwelton]

I'm not going to reply to all of your post at the moment because it's quite long, but I thought I'd chime in with a few points.

First off, do you expect to find lesser evils if you go abroad? Western society has influenced every corner of the world, save the jungles of the Congo and perhaps Antarctica (exaggerating of course, but you get my point). There is more lewdness in Muslim countries than you would find in Western ones. And many times these sins are all committed openly. I was listening to a lecture by Hamza Yusuf earlier today and he quoted a statistic that says the highest rates of downloaded pornography per capita were in Muslim lands.

You mock me for wanting to move to seek knowledge (which by the way, is for the sake of Allah SWT) and to make sure that all the food I eat is halal without having to worry (again, which is for the sake of obeying Allah SWT). Of course these are not the only reasons, but one should not just go to a Muslim country because he or she thinks they will suddenly be amongst noble, upright and moral people. Yes, there are many Muslims that possess these qualities, but also many more that don't. My guess is it's very much like America in terms of the character and attributes of the people. A good Muslim is far more than someone who prays five times a day and fasts Ramadan; they have to live Islam on the inside and outside. Just as you have good and bad Christians in America, you have good and bad Muslims overseas. One should move to a Muslim land for the sake of pleasing Allah SWT and growing in the deen. If you move abroad and your deen shrinks because you see so many immoral Muslims or Muslims behaving not in accordance to Islamic laws or teachings, this is not a good thing. I'm not saying it would happen, but it's a possibility.

Yes America is under a kufr governing system, but there are no lands that are governed by pure sharia law. Many Islamic countries are ruled by monarchies. We can't just "make up" sharia law as you say; most of these governments do not want to turn their countries into fully Islamically ruled societies.

May Allah SWT reward you for seeking out a Muslim land to reside in. But, I would advise you to visit for a month or so in order to get a true feel of what it is like before committing yourself long term.

Also, you need to provide hadeeth and verses from the Qur'an to justify your views, or point us to a scholarly fatwa that outlines what you have said here.

 

[Tariqa]

Subanallah who is mocking who??? I simply said that moving for better food is for the sake of Allah but that is not the reason that you should be moving.. Many people do things for their benefit and for the sake of Allah.. if i told you moving to the overseas land you will not find halal food , you may only have dates to eat would you still go after knowing you face poverty overseas..?? Would you still say it is for the sake of Allah.. You should change this attitude and it obviously shows that your mentality is flawed.. you are the same one who is asking me for proof from the hadiths and such when this is clearly in the quran and sunnah but yet you seem to choose not to want to use your mind you just want links like fat people just want more hot dogs.. am i not making this as logically understandable as possible??

Very well you can leave and go wherever you want for whatever you want ..its not my business and i do not care since you think that someone is attacking you and you obviously do not take my word for many things..


If you were a sincere Muslim that is doing deeds for the sake of Allah only whether you receive your reward on this world or you do not then tell me why is it that you keep bringing up one of the most redundant topics in this post, the one that every so caller weak Muslim continues to bring up... The issue that Islamic countries are also as bad as the west or even more so.. I have heard this so many times and this statement is so wrong.. The Muslim countries are bad but they are not as bad as the western non Muslim lands and if you believe that, then that shows where the level of your iman is truly at.. I'm not accusing you of anything your own foolish tongues do not already speak volumes about your characters on this post..
I hate to say but this notion is among the most ignorant of notions.. it is a type of throwing mud on the Muslims for what they lack , but did you stop to make note of what they do have over the non Muslim countries?? How about more Muslims that believe in Allah over these lands, did you mention that.?? Or i take it shirk is something that does not bother you.. Is it that shirk can be tolerated but INTERNET pornography cannot??? Is it that pornography is a greater sin then shirk?? If it is then you have obviously miscalculated the sins of the ummah and you obviously do not know what the principle is of greater or lesser evil is..


Heres to your statement that America and Saudi Arabia both have no Sharia laws. . is it do you think that America governing system of democracy is equal in sin to the Saudi governing system.. How can you compare the two.. ?? you greatly obviously must no be thinking with your head to rebuttal on this thread attacking me for accusing you of something i did not, and then only make your self look more guilty the more you bring up irreverent matters that has already been discussed a million times or so..

If you would like proof of anything i say or do not say then look no further then on this thread.. take a look back because obviously you did not digest everything on this post as you seem to be skipping points only to jump and digest the points that you would like to use to your own defense...subannahllah and may Allah forgive you for your emotional weak ways....indeed inshallah...

 

[islamirama]

It seems this thread is quite lengthy and confusing for some.

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practice their religion openly.

If Muslims are treated badly and oppressed and they still don't migrate, then the Angels will ask them "how were you treated" and they will say they were oppressed, and the angels will say "was Allah's earth not big enough to migrate?" and then those people will be drag to hellfire and thrown in.

So it is important for those who are oppressed to migrate out of those kuffar lands. As for others, inshallah visit here:'

Can Muslims settle in kaafir countries for the sake of a better life?

Advice to the Muslims in the West (or kuffar land)

 

[Woodrow]

It seems this thread is quite lengthy and confusing for some.

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practice their religion openly.

If Muslims are treated badly and oppressed and they still don't migrate, then the Angels will ask them "how were you treated" and they will say they were oppressed, and the angels will say "was Allah's earth not big enough to migrate?" and then those people will be drag to hellfire and thrown in.

So it is important for those who are oppressed to migrate out of those kuffar lands. As for others, inshallah visit here:'

I agree

Can Muslims settle in kaafir countries for the sake of a better life?

From that I especially agree with this paragraph.

So given that the Muslim countries vary, as do the kaafir countries, and given that the Muslim cannot go to a Muslim state and settle there because of visa and strict settlement laws etc, and that a Muslim may not be able to practice his religion in some Muslim countries, when he may be able to do so in whole or at least in part in some kaafir countries – for all these reasons it is impossible to issue a general ruling that will cover all countries and all individuals. Rather we should say that each Muslim has his own unique set of circumstances and his own ruling that applies to him, and each person is accountable for himself. If he is able to practise his religion in the Muslim country in which he lives more than he can in a kaafir country, then it is not permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country. But if it is the other way round, then it is permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country, subject to the condition that he is confident that he can resist the desires and temptations to be found there by taking the precautionary measures prescribed in sharee’ah.

Advice to the Muslims in the West (or kuffar land)

I'm still reading this link

 

[Tariqa]

So given that the Muslim countries vary, as do the kaafir countries, and given that the Muslim cannot go to a Muslim state and settle there because of visa and strict settlement laws etc, and that a Muslim may not be able to practice his religion in some Muslim countries, when he may be able to do so in whole or at least in part in some kaafir countries – for all these reasons it is impossible to issue a general ruling that will cover all countries and all individuals. Rather we should say that each Muslim has his own unique set of circumstances and his own ruling that applies to him, and each person is accountable for himself. If he is able to practise his religion in the Muslim country in which he lives more than he can in a kaafir country, then it is not permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country. But if it is the other way round, then it is permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country, subject to the condition that he is confident that he can resist the desires and temptations to be found there by taking the precautionary measures prescribed in sharee’ah. ---- unknown qoute.
















You all must be forgetting somthing... there are many muslims that indeed can worship better in the muslim countries..it is like almost a statisical 99.9% of the people that live in muslim countries can do this and if not in every muslim country then there is another muslim country that is either equally as easy to practice or a little lesser or more.....

We all know the fatwas but its time for us to get realistic.. How many people are going to places where the corruption is 50 times greater than in a land such as in africa or somthing closer.. Even in the UK the fitanah is not as bad as it is in america but some people feel the need to go so far from the ummah and most times it is for their lusting greedy desires to accumalate more wealth in the Us because it is known for its wealth and not the other way around...

Many situations can be looked at and be judged right then and there and it makes it easier..

Yes there are strict laws of muslim countries but there are also other countries that are more lax still close to muslim lands and further from the utter destruction of some states such as america.... we are only trying to be realistic here..

 

[rpwelton]

Imagine this. You're standing on the Day of Judgment and the non-Muslims of the West complain to Allah SWT that they were not given the message. They then come to you and ask why you didn't give them the message since you were one of the Muslims who used to reside in America (or Europe, etc). What are you going to say?

Are you saying that these people don't deserve dawah? Don't they deserve to know about Islam be called towards it?

How was Islam spread to China, Indonesia, India and Africa? Certainly Muslims did not move to vacant lands and start populating the place. Sahaba were sent out during the time of Muhammad (SAW) to the edges of the earth to spread Islam. They lived in non-Muslim lands and probably endured much persecution for the sake of spreading the religion of Allah SWT. Muhammad (SAW) could have surely told them to come back to Medina as soon as the Islamic State was established, but he didn't. Many of the sahaba are buried many thousands of miles from Medina.

 

[aadil77]

Sheikh Tariqa I told you to think before you speak, again you accuse us of constantly being in sin and kufr by staying in non muslim lands.

You've got to be careful mate, just because you feel strongly about something doesn't give you the authority to say who's sinning and who's not, you don't know our intentions, you don't even know if must of us are even aware of the importance of migrating

You could have started this thread informing us about the importance of moving to muslim lands, you could have quoted hadiths etc. Which we would have welcomed and benefited more from than just reading pages of slowly revealed reasons to why its important.This is how it goes on this forum. Instead you asked insulting questions and accused us.

you might have found what the respones you were looking for if you did the above

 

[islamirama]

It seems this thread is quite lengthy and confusing for some.

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practice their religion openly.

If Muslims are treated badly and oppressed and they still don't migrate, then the Angels will ask them "how were you treated" and they will say they were oppressed, and the angels will say "was Allah's earth not big enough to migrate?" and then those people will be drag to hellfire and thrown in.

So it is important for those who are oppressed to migrate out of those kuffar lands. As for others, inshallah visit here:'

Can Muslims settle in kaafir countries for the sake of a better life?

Advice to the Muslims in the West (or kuffar land)

I think the above covers this thread properly, and as such this thread should be closed so as to avoid any further confusion or useless discussion with our limited knowledge.

 

[rpwelton]

Re: (repost)Living in Non-Muslim lands: What's the excuse?

Perhaps someone can enlighten me on one particular issue. When the majority of the Muslims migrated to Medina, what was the status of the ones who stayed behind in Mecca and continued to practice their Islam? Clearly they were living with the Quraysh, who were at war with the Muslims in Medina. Were those Muslims who stayed behind living in sin? I honestly don't know the answer so I'm hoping someone with knowledge can reply.

 

[islamirama]

Re: (repost)Living in Non-Muslim lands: What's the excuse?

Perhaps someone can enlighten me on one particular issue. When the majority of the Muslims migrated to Medina, what was the status of the ones who stayed behind in Mecca and continued to practice their Islam? Clearly they were living with the Quraysh, who were at war with the Muslims in Medina. Were those Muslims who stayed behind living in sin? I honestly don't know the answer so I'm hoping someone with knowledge can reply.

Not answering your question but like to make a comment relating to it.

As mentioned before, if one is oppressed then it is obligated for them to make hijra, unless they cannot then they inshallah work towards getting to that point so they can.

The Muslims in Makkah were oppressed and tortured and what not. It was pretty much like how Gaza and palestine is. The Muslims living western countries like UK, USA are living in the countries that are enemies of Islam. Unlike the Gazans or Muslims in Makkah, we are helping the enemy of Islam with our taxes. And they can come get us anytime they want and throw us in prison, gitmo or deport to afghan or somwhere like Dr. Afia for some torture without any evidence. If one does live in kuffar land, it would be best to in a muslim tolerant or friendly land, and one that is not directly at war with Muslims, invading/occupying their lands, and making you pay (with taxes) for the soldiers and bombs that are used against the Muslims.