Logical proof for the existence of holy god.

[aamirsaab]

They could, yes. But everybody would know they were lying, so they could gain nothing from it.

Not if Mr supreme overlord convinces others that HE got something extra from God (in this case, an outright lie). You gotta remember, we're human beings at the end of the day. We can abuse anything for personal gain.

How could better communication make it worse? We certainly may not follow his word once we have it, but we would have it, inmistakably.

The purpose of the test is to follow His commands. And we do have it quite clearly - now available in all forms of media. Communicating the words of God isn't the real problem at the minute - following them is.

I agree that the ones who went through that were likely sincere. That doesn't make them right. Those who believe they have seen UFOs are also very sincere.

But we are not talking about UFOS. We're talking about an All-powerful being. Something so great, one person was convinced to pack his stuff (along with as many people and animals as he could) into a giant ark and watch his hometown (and the world) get completely flooded. Something so great, one person was thrown into fire for his belief! Something so great, one person was humiliated, mocked, beatend and (in some people's eyes) crucified.

That has gotta be something important if people went through those kinds of things and STILL believed in it after. It's not some pink unicorn or a flying spaghetti monster or Chewbacca. This was something very significant AND we do have the textual evidence to support it (whether you chose to believe them or not, the hard evidence is there for all to see). This is why parables of pink unicorns etc don't work in athiest vs theist arguments btw; they aren't parables, they are just passive-aggressive/mocking techniques!

Ultimately (as always the case) it will come down to whether you believe in it or not. But as I said, for someone to go through any (or even a quarter) of those things the Prophets went through, there had to have been some truth in it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

for someone to go through any (or even a quarter) of those things the Prophets went through, there had to have been some truth in it.

No, that is a logical fallacy.

All it really means is that they believed it and held it to be of the utmost importance. The only difference between their belief in God and the unicorn examples is conviction of belief. And because people believe something so strongly and place such high importance upon it does NOT indicate anything as to the truth of the belief. It could be true or they could be completely (and honestly) mistaken.

 

[aamirsaab]

No, that is a logical fallacy.

All it really means is that they believed it and held it to be of the utmost importance. The only difference between their belief in God and the unicorn examples is conviction of belief. And because people believe something so strongly and place such high importance upon it does NOT indicate anything as to the truth of the belief. It could be true or they could be completely (and honestly) mistaken.

Which is where belief comes into it - which I mentioned prior to that.

Speaking of logical fallacies, trying to prove the existance of anything is a logical fallacy since ultimately it comes down to convincing someone that it exists. So throw me a bone here!

 

[Ali_008]

You guys are just trying to refute our claims based on your own whims without any facts to support them. And I've also noticed that there are a lot of things which you people have overlooked like the Signs of Judgment, I mentioned in a post. Whats your response to this?

Apart from all the verses and all the discussion which we've been having from the past few days, I'd like to add something. The Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad :saws: listed out the Signs of the Day of Judgment and since the lifetime of the Prophets :saws:, these Prophecies have been fulfilling one after another. Here's a link where you can go through them. How can the Qur'an and the Prophet :saws: be so precise about whats gonna happen after centuries. :?
http://etori.tripod.com/dajjalsystem/judgement.html

 

[Pygoscelis]

How can the Qur'an and the Prophet be so precise about whats gonna happen after centuries.

Short answer, he wasn't.

Long answer, see Trumble's post above.

 

[Trumble]

Brother Trumble, prior to the big bang, there was neither earth nor sky. If I remember my science classes right, there just used to be one big mass of gases and as far as I know these gases were together because of nuclear reactions (fission/fusion). Then this one body exploded and led to the formation of various galaxies and other celestial bodies. I'm not a Professor of Astrophysics and so this is all I can tell you of the big bang of all what I've heard/read/seen about it.

Prior to the Big Bang there was no space(time) for either to exist in. But the specifics of the science aren't important, this is a comparative religion forum, not a cosmology forum.


Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?

The question is what does the Qur'an mean in referring to earth and heaven? The first thing an advocate of 'Qur'anic science' needs to do is establish that the meanings are different from those usually associated with those words. Both in the Qur'an, and in every other religious work I can think of dating from before the twentieth century, 'earth' is what we walk about on, the world of people, animals, rocks and rivers. 'Heaven' is the celestial realm of God or gods. Sky or, loosely, 'the heavens' is what we see above our heads, where the moon and sun and stars move. None of those things make sense in the context of the Big Bang. The earth wouldn't even be formed for another 8 billion years or so, the first 'celestial objects' of any sort for half a billion years. So what 'earth' is being separated from what 'heavens'? Are the 'heavens' just vacuum, and 'earth' the matter of future sun and stars? But vacuum is nothing by definition, while surely to readers of the Qur'an sun, stars and galaxies are part of the heavens, not earth?! And what of the Dark Matter and Dark Energy we now believe constitutes 95% or so of all the mass in the universe.... where do they fit in? Are those things part of that 'earth' or 'heavens'?

A claim that the above passage refers to the Big Bang has to answer those questions, and answer them convincingly. Otherwise the claim is totally meaningless and, as Pygoscelis says with the same degree of 'interpretation' you could use the verse to support any cosmological theory, or creation myth, that you wish.

 

[Charzhino]

You guys are just trying to refute our claims based on your own whims without any facts to support them. And I've also noticed that there are a lot of things which you people have overlooked like the Signs of Judgment, I mentioned in a post. Whats your response to this?

Many of those minor signs are very similar to the one's mentioned in the Hindu scriptures regarding Kali Yuga (The dark age of ignorance, final time period before judgement). Examples include:

Bhavishya Purana (1.4.16):People would be reduced in their duration of life and would be inpatient, angry, and always disturbed. They will become overly attracted to the temporary glitter of materialism, reducing their ability to attain spiritual understanding.

Padma Purana (7.26.15-17):In Kali-Yuga, which is the abode of sins, everyone is involved in sinful activities. They censure the Vedas, or spiritual truths, and engage in gambling and stealing. Brahmanas (Priests) will act fraudulently for a livelihood. Everyone will be addicted to women, sex, and intoxicating liquors. They will be stealing others’ wealth. Heretics and atheists will become prominent.

Sirmad Bhagavatam (12.3.34):Women will become much shorter. They will lose all shyness, speak harshly, and engage in thievery, deceit, and bold audacity. They will eat too much and have more children than they can properly care for.

And there are more with similar contexts which relate to today's society and world.

 

[Ali_008]

Short answer, he wasn't.

Long answer, see Trumble's post above.

Like I said before you are just following your own whims without any facts to back your claim and by refuting this plea you, my friend, sound like you need a psychologist. The signs of Judgment Day as given by the Qur'an and the Ahadeeth are very much prevalent in today's world. Get out of your box and look around, there is huge amount of fornication/adultery going on, wine is in heavy demand, women are clothed yet naked, time is passing quickly, killing killing killing in every part of the world. All I can suggest to you is to reread the content of this "link"

 

[Ali_008]

Prior to the Big Bang there was no space(time) for either to exist in. But the specifics of the science aren't important, this is a comparative religion forum, not a cosmology forum.


Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?

The question is what does the Qur'an mean in referring to earth and heaven? The first thing an advocate of 'Qur'anic science' needs to do is establish that the meanings are different from those usually associated with those words. Both in the Qur'an, and in every other religious work I can think of dating from before the twentieth century, 'earth' is what we walk about on, the world of people, animals, rocks and rivers. 'Heaven' is the celestial realm of God or gods. Sky or, loosely, 'the heavens' is what we see above our heads, where the moon and sun and stars move. None of those things make sense in the context of the Big Bang. The earth wouldn't even be formed for another 8 billion years or so, the first 'celestial objects' of any sort for half a billion years. So what 'earth' is being separated from what 'heavens'? Are the 'heavens' just vacuum, and 'earth' the matter of future sun and stars? But vacuum is nothing by definition, while surely to readers of the Qur'an sun, stars and galaxies are part of the heavens, not earth?! And what of the Dark Matter and Dark Energy we now believe constitutes 95% or so of all the mass in the universe.... where do they fit in? Are those things part of that 'earth' or 'heavens'?

A claim that the above passage refers to the Big Bang has to answer those questions, and answer them convincingly. Otherwise the claim is totally meaningless and, as Pygoscelis says with the same degree of 'interpretation' you could use the verse to support any cosmological theory, or creation myth, that you wish.

Earth was a by-product of Big Bang, I hope you agree to this? And the big bang was an EXPLOSION!!!! An explosion scatters stuff around everywhere. This mass called the Earth on which we live was a part of the nebula but not in this state (with all vegetation and oceans on it).

The earth wouldn't even be formed for another 8 billion years or so, the first 'celestial objects' of any sort for half a billion years.

The reactions that led to all these took a time of millions and billions of years. The explosion/big bang created the Universe and dispersed its content all around. You're trying to tell me that there was no sky and no earth and they came into picture all of a sudden out of nothingness. I don't find it that way, even the theory states that there was this heap of gases, in other words nebula. The earth and the sky came out as a result of big bang, they didn't result out of nothingness. The thing that bugs science even today is that primitive nebula whose birth has not yet been discovered. The question is where did the nebula come from? Moreover, it wasn't some quick reaction like puncturing a balloon. Billions of years were involved and all kinds of change in conditions happened, according to science. There were years when there was just rain and there were years of scorching heat as well. I don't find it surprising that these changes in conditions gave a solid shape to these gases and caused the creation of the sun, our dear earth, other planets, stars, meteors, galaxies and all others. eace:eace:eace:

Brother Trumble, I really appreciate the fact that you are really trying to have a logical argument with all that you can offer unlike others. eace:

Many of those minor signs are very similar to the one's mentioned in the Hindu scriptures regarding Kali Yuga (The dark age of ignorance, final time period before judgement). Examples include:

Bhavishya Purana (1.4.16):People would be reduced in their duration of life and would be inpatient, angry, and always disturbed. They will become overly attracted to the temporary glitter of materialism, reducing their ability to attain spiritual understanding.

Padma Purana (7.26.15-17):In Kali-Yuga, which is the abode of sins, everyone is involved in sinful activities. They censure the Vedas, or spiritual truths, and engage in gambling and stealing. Brahmanas (Priests) will act fraudulently for a livelihood. Everyone will be addicted to women, sex, and intoxicating liquors. They will be stealing others’ wealth. Heretics and atheists will become prominent.

Sirmad Bhagavatam (12.3.34):Women will become much shorter. They will lose all shyness, speak harshly, and engage in thievery, deceit, and bold audacity. They will eat too much and have more children than they can properly care for.

And there are more with similar contexts which relate to today's society and world.

A Muslim can never say that the Qur'an was the only scripture which Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) revealed to man.

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Surah Nisa - 004:136

And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
Surah Nahl - 016:044

There is another verse which says that in every age, a scripture was revealed but I couldn't find it. So the books of other faiths could be those scriptures but I can't say that for sure because in the Qur'an only Zabur, Taurat and Injeel are mentioned. The Psalms, The Old Testament and The New Testament are corrupt/altered versions of the three respectively.

You gave the Hindu verses for your claim, thanks for that. This tells me that for you, the Hindu scriptures are the yardstick. Even the Hindu scriptures urge you to believe in Prophet Muhammad :saws:.
http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/muhammad_prophesised/hindus.htm
Prophet Muhammad :saws: was prophesised in the Hindu scriptures. eace:

 

[Trumble]

Earth was a by-product of Big Bang, I hope you agree to this? And the big bang was an EXPLOSION!!!! An explosion scatters stuff around everywhere. This mass called the Earth on which we live was a part of the nebula but not in this state (with all vegetation and oceans on it).

Actually, the Big Bang was NOT an 'explosion'. It didn't scatter stuff around everywhere as, as I said last time, there was nowhere to scatter it around. The Big Bang was the beginning of an expansion of the universe (including the 'empty' space) from an infinitesimal point called a singularity.

You are still missing the point, though. It is not the science that is at issue, it is what the Qur'an supposedly says about it. And if you sit back and think about it, I suspect you'll realize that the only reason you think that passage has anything to do with the Big Bang is because somebody has told you that it does.

You seem to be reduced now to "Earth was a by-product of Big Bang". That is true, in the sense that everything is, but can you really claim that is reason to think

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?

describes the Big Bang?! Any connection is now so tenuous that claiming that one describes the other is, frankly, silly. Unless those pesky ol' questions can be answered.

The thing that bugs science even today is that primitive nebula whose birth has not yet been discovered. The question is where did the nebula come from?

There was no 'nebula of gases' but certainly the origin of and reason for the Big Bang are great mysteries. We may never know the answers (although String Theory is already leading to some speculative possibles), and perhaps the answer might even be 'God'. That is indeed a massive question, but not the one we have been discussing!

Brother Trumble, I really appreciate the fact that you are really trying to have a logical argument with all that you can offer

Likewise. I can hope appreciate that I do genuinely believe that the problem with such 'Qur'anic science' is that it obscures and not clarifies what the passages concerned (whoever authored them!) actually mean.

 

[Ali_008]

Actually, the Big Bang was NOT an 'explosion'. It didn't scatter stuff around everywhere as, as I said last time, there was nowhere to scatter it around. The Big Bang was the beginning of an expansion of the universe (including the 'empty' space) from an infinitesimal point called a singularity.

OK, I agree that big bang can't be called an explosion. Even then the verse is very precise. You've stated yourself that there was an infinitesimal point. It was a single point that began to expand and is still expanding. The verse's meaning does not say something fictitious or illogical. Take an example of a balloon filled with small bits of paper. In its basic state, all those bits of paper come in touch with each other. When you inflate the balloon these bits of paper get more space and start to move away from each other. Well, this practice may not work on earth because of the gravitational forces but the outer space doesn't have these forces. we clove them asunder. Separated them, not kept them together. Made them move away from each other. In the videos I posted above, it said the words also mean, un-stitched them. I have a couple of more videos for you, if you don't mind.

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai8i5Br14vw[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/v/OG1lqf5DF-4[/MEDIA]

 

[Trumble]

OK, I agree that big bang can't be called an explosion. Even then the verse is very precise. You've stated yourself that there was an infinitesimal point. It was a single point that began to expand and is still expanding. The verse's meaning does not say something fictitious or illogical.

No, but I never said it did either. It just doesn't talk about the Big Bang or at least, far from being 'precise' it is so vague as to be meaningless in the context you suggest. You STILL are not answering my questions!

WHAT is being separated? Accepting that 'earth' is matter in the widest sense of the term (which really doesn't cut it outside the schoolboy science of your videos), you are talking about matter being separated from more matter!. WHAT are 'the heavens'? WHICH OF THE TWO includes the 95% of the universe that is dark matter or dark energy? WHY do both 'earth' and 'the heavens' mean something totally different from what they normally do, and what their audience would expect them to mean?

I guess I'm just repeating myself now. Maybe its just time to agree to disagree?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Like I said before you are just following your own whims without any facts to back your claim and by refuting this plea you, my friend, sound like you need a psychologist.

I don't need any facts because I make no claim. I simply refute yours, which is the rational thing to do given a weak claim with nothing to back it up. I was hoping we could avoid the whole "atheists need a psychologist vs religion is delusion" bit but it seems you want to go there.

The signs of Judgment Day as given by the Qur'an and the Ahadeeth are very much prevalent in today's world.

there is huge amount of fornication/adultery going on

This isn't new

wine is in heavy demand

Wine has always been in demand. So much so that Jesus is said to have turned water into wine and this is said to be a miracle, a good thing.

women are clothed yet naked

Eh?

time is passing quickly

huh?

killing killing killing in every part of the world

And often pushed along by religious differences, including often Islam itself.

People have been saying we're near the end times for hundreds of years now (thousands if you look to the Christians, and hundreds of thousands if you look to some older religions), and yet here we still are. No judgment day. Care to make a prediction for when it'll happen? I'd caution against it given all those who have before and been wrong.

 

[Chuck]

No, but I never said it did either. It just doesn't talk about the Big Bang or at least, far from being 'precise' it is so vague as to be meaningless in the context you suggest. You STILL are not answering my questions!

WHAT is being separated? Accepting that 'earth' is matter in the widest sense of the term (which really doesn't cut it outside the schoolboy science of your videos), you are talking about matter being separated from more matter!. WHAT are 'the heavens'? WHICH OF THE TWO includes the 95% of the universe that is dark matter or dark energy? WHY do both 'earth' and 'the heavens' mean something totally different from what they normally do, and what their audience would expect them to mean?

Big Bang if it means Big Bang model, it doesn't exactly talk about Big Bang theory/model, because Big Bang model is more than just about inflation of universe from a single point.

Anyhow, I don't see the vagueness you are talking about, from verse it is obvious that it is talking about the Universe and everything in it, including the Earth that it was one unit then God splitted/separated/cloved asunder it apart.

Here are 3 translations, it seems obvious:

021.029
YUSUFALI: If any of them should say, "I am a god besides Him", such a one We should reward with Hell: thus do We reward those who do wrong.
PICKTHAL: And one of them who should say: Lo! I am a god beside Him, that one We should repay with hell. Thus We Repay wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: And whoever of them should say: Surely I am a god besides Him, such a one do We recompense with hell; thus do, We recompense the unjust.

021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
SHAKIR: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

 

[Trumble]

Anyhow, I don't see the vagueness you are talking about, from verse it is obvious that it is talking about the Universe and everything in it, including the Earth that it was one unit then God splitted/separated/cloved asunder it apart.

If it is so 'obvious', answer the questions I posted earlier. The Earth (and hence 'earth') didn't even form fror another 8 billion years or so... so by what possible standard is it 'obvious' the verse refers to the Big Bang in any way whatsoever?

What is 'obvious' to me is that the verse is talking about what it says it is talking about, the earth and the heavens according to the meaning of those terms understood by everybody living in 8th century Arabia and the vast majority of people ever since. What I speculate it is suggesting is that God separated our world (as opposed to a sundry collection of quarks plus that might one day.. a mere 8 billion years later.. collect together to form the earth) from His own realm of 'the heavens' and/or the sky above our heads together with the familiar objects we see moving in it, as part of the Creation process. It's a creation myth, not 'science'.

Of course, there's no reason to assume that speculation is right. Any more than it would be regarding a hundred other creation myths, or even scientific theories you could come up with! But, as I said to Ali; I'm now just repeating myself over and over and with such a fundamental divide as to what might be 'obvious' perhaps it's best to agree to disagree.

 

[Chuck]

If it is so 'obvious', answer the questions I posted earlier. The Earth (and hence 'earth') didn't even form fror another 8 billion years or so... so by what possible standard is it 'obvious' the verse refers to the Big Bang in any way whatsoever?

What is 'obvious' to me is that the verse is talking about what it says it is talking about, the earth and the heavens according to the meaning of those terms understood by everybody living in 8th century Arabia and the vast majority of people ever since. What I speculate it is suggesting is that God separated our world (as opposed to a sundry collection of quarks plus that might one day.. a mere 8 billion years later.. collect together to form the earth) from His own realm of 'the heavens' and/or the sky above our heads together with the familiar objects we see moving in it, as part of the Creation process. It's a creation myth, not 'science'.

Of course, there's no reason to assume that speculation is right. Any more than it would be regarding a hundred other creation myths, or even scientific theories you could come up with! But, as I said to Ali; I'm now just repeating myself over and over and with such a fundamental divide as to what might be 'obvious' perhaps it's best to agree to disagree.

You are splitting hair. Even I, in my explanation used "including Earth", but it was not there at the time, in present form, at initial expansion of the Universe.

Actually, stars, sun, planets or galaxies, etc... nothing like that were there in this Universe at that time. But when somebody says that what you see in the Universe far apart galaxies, stars, Earth, Sun, etc... was one unit at a time, it is obvious that it is about initial expansion of the universe what is referred in Big Bang model.

 

[Trumble]

Actually, stars, sun, planets or galaxies, etc... nothing like that were there in this Universe at that time. But when somebody says that what you see in the Universe far apart galaxies, stars, Earth, Sun, etc... was one unit at a time, it is obvious that it is about initial expansion of the universe what is referred in Big Bang model.

It's 'obvious' only because you are so desperate to believe it. It SAYS nothing of the sort. But, as I said, this is obviously futile. I refer to my previous, and rest my case. If somebody can actually answer my questions or justify why the meanings of 'the heavens' and 'earth' can be assumed to be so totally different here from what they normally are, feel free.

 

[Chuck]

It's 'obvious' only because you are so desperate to believe it. It SAYS nothing of the sort. But, as I said, this is obviously futile. I refer to my previous, and rest my case. If somebody can actually answer my questions or justify why the meanings of 'the heavens' and 'earth' can be assumed to be so totally different here from what they normally are, feel free.

I gave a clear example, perhaps, you are so desperate to ignore it. 'The heavens' and 'Earth' means the Universe and everything in it.

 

[Trumble]

I gave a clear example, perhaps, you are so desperate to ignore it. 'The heavens' and 'Earth' means the Universe and everything in it.

The only thing you are giving a clear example of is waffle. Yet again, if they mean that, what, according to the Qur'an, is part of 'the heavens' and what is part of 'earth'? What is being parted from what? And why do those words mean something different here than every other time they are used?

 

[Chuck]

The only thing you are giving a clear example of is waffle. Yet again, if they mean that, what, according to the Qur'an, is part of 'the heavens' and what is part of 'earth'? What is being parted from what? And why do those words mean something different here than every other time they are used?

What would have been the correct choice of words then for stating that universe was one single joined matter and God expanded it?

And explain whats wrong in this example:

But when somebody says that what you see in the Universe far apart galaxies, stars, Earth, Sun, etc... was one unit at a time, it is obvious that it is about initial expansion of the universe what is referred in Big Bang model.