Logical proof for the existence of holy god.

[Charzhino]

A Muslim can never say that the Qur'an was the only scripture which Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) revealed to man.

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Surah Nisa - 004:136

And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
Surah Nahl - 016:044

There is another verse which says that in every age, a scripture was revealed but I couldn't find it. So the books of other faiths could be those scriptures but I can't say that for sure because in the Qur'an only Zabur, Taurat and Injeel are mentioned. The Psalms, The Old Testament and The New Testament are corrupt/altered versions of the three respectively.

You gave the Hindu verses for your claim, thanks for that. This tells me that for you, the Hindu scriptures are the yardstick. Even the Hindu scriptures urge you to believe in Prophet Muhammad :saws:.
http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/muhammad_prophesised/hindus.htm
Prophet Muhammad :saws: was prophesised in the Hindu scriptures. eace:

Thanks for the last verse, I havn't seen that one saying, dark prophecies before, interesting. As for your claim about Muhammed in the Hindu scriptures, I have read 2 different translations for the given passage online, so I cannot really affirm this, I would have to go out and buy the relevant book in which it is said.

 

[Ali_008]

WHAT is being separated? Accepting that 'earth' is matter in the widest sense of the term (which really doesn't cut it outside the schoolboy science of your videos), you are talking about matter being separated from more matter!. WHAT are 'the heavens'? WHICH OF THE TWO includes the 95% of the universe that is dark matter or dark energy?

EUREKA! Now I think I totally understand your question. And I think not just will I prove the verse to be right but I think I’ll also be able to prove that this is the speech of the Almighty, inshAllah.

You’re trying to tell me that how could earth and heavens separate when they didn’t even exist at the time of the Big Bang? I hope I got it right this time. I explained in one of my previous posts that the earth went through adverse conditions after the Big Bang. The heavens and the earth did exist at the time of the Big Bang but not in the form which we know. The infinitesimal point did contain earth in it along with the heavens serving it like a circumference. I’ve repeatedly felt that you try to put forward that the earth and the heavens came into being out of nothing; I don’t think that’s true. The Big Bang created the Universe which we know, it led to the expansion of that body and our Universe was formed.

Earth didn't just happen from nowhere in the Universe, it always was there even in that "seething ball of energy" which expanded. It was in a primitive form. If it would have been in the form which we know, like what you're saying "the real earth", then it wouldn't have had to go through any of the climatic variations. And the heavens were circumference of the expanding body. Still sticking to my balloon example, with increase in space, the bits of paper "cloved asunder" from the balloon itself. In my example of the balloon, we just filled it with paper but the universe was one piece, one SOLID piece. like how a solid peace has all its molecules intact and when the solid is subjected to changes, it affects it state as well and can move the molecules away from each other, similarly our universe was one ball with intact content in primitive states. It wasn't the heavens and earth that took birth out of nothingness, it was that infinitesimal point.

The purpose of the Big Bang was the creation of the Universe, more importantly creation of earth (as its the only planet that can support life). Its not some human speech like the scientists who've been explaining for years for us to understand their theories. SubhanAllah SubhanAllah, its the speech of the Creator and He can make the point so simply. He knew that a special primitive mass was inside that "seething ball of energy" which had to be separated and worked on to make Earth. For him that special mass was always Earth. And I think its the best way He could put it in his book. For a Mother, a son is always a son whether he's an infant or an old man with all kinds of ailment.

eace:

P.S. - For God's sake, the videos were of National Geographic and History Channel.

 

[Trumble]

You’re trying to tell me that how could earth and heavens separate when they didn’t even exist at the time of the Big Bang? I hope I got it right this time.

Almost. The trouble is, the more you need to interpret the further you get from the actual text, and I still contend that that text describes the separation not the subatomic particles composing a 'seething ball of energy', but of two things/concepts easily seen and understood throughout the history of mankind, the earth on which they walk and the sky above their heads.

Consider it this way, if you had never heard of the Big Bang theory, what then would you understand the verse to mean? As I see it you have two basic choices, it could be as I have just described or as, perhaps, some description of the formation of the universe that you can't really make sense of as we don't know the science yet. Have any historical Qu'ranic scholars ever taken the second route?

Chuck asked for words. Obviously for a mass audience too much science would not be appropriate (a bit like the History Channel! ) but what is wrong with something like (deliberately in crude Biblical style)

All of God's Creation was one. And God clove it asunder and scattered all that He would form into the Earth, and Sun, and Moon and stars, throughout the heavens.

That might convince me!

As an aside, I note your comments on the special place held by the matter-later-to-become Earth. Does that mean that you consider Earth and intelligent life on Earth to have a unique relationship with God, or could many millions or even billions of such planets exist? Off topic, but I am curious.

 

[Chuck]

All of God's Creation was one. And God clove it asunder and scattered all that He would form into the Earth, and Sun, and Moon and stars, throughout the heavens.

That might convince me!

Practically, you have said the same thing, and anybody above can nitpick the choice of words the way you are doing in the verse in question in Quran. We can't go any further than this, this waste of time. But I'll explain why the words in the verse are better.

First, the phrase "heavens and earth." There was no particular word in Arabic that would specifically mean universe. The word which is translated as heaven(s) is used to mean universe(s) in many places in Quran. In the verse, words heavens and earth combined to make a phrase that conveys the meaning that everything in the universe, and I mean everything in its eternity so Earth, Sun, Moon, and stars, galaxies, atoms, subatomic particles -- everything is included. In arabic it is concise, goes with flow of Quranic rhythm, and packs the meaning to include everything in the universe and whole universe itself, so there was no need to mention those what you have mentioned.

Second, heavens and earth are not the first and all creation of God in Quran. But that is outside our realm.

Third, Earth was not initially in current form in the Quran, as it mentions that God has created heavens and earth in stages in other verses in Quran. So when all of this was one single unit, it doesn't mean it was in present form, but breaking that unit apart and expanding it was the initiation of its developmental stages.

 

[Ali_008]

Consider it this way, if you had never heard of the Big Bang theory, what then would you understand the verse to mean? As I see it you have two basic choices, it could be as I have just described or as, perhaps, some description of the formation of the universe that you can't really make sense of as we don't know the science yet. Have any historical Qu'ranic scholars ever taken the second route?

There still are parts of the Qur'an about which there are no explanations. Its not that the Qur'an states something wrong or something contradictory but there are such verses. For the Qur'anic scholars, if they couldn't understand any verse, they won't debate much about it for the fear of saying something about which they have no knowledge and attributing it to Allah and such speculation is opposed by the Qur'an.

The things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.
Surah A'raf - 7:33

So the Qur'anic scholars won't argue over it and leave it to Allah to make its meaning clear when He feels it'll be right. If you read Islamic articles, it is likely that you’ll find “Wallahu Alim/Allah knows best” at the end of some because of that verse and it is cited at more than one place in the Qur’an to refrain from such practices. Its not just this one verse Brother which gives out a recent discovery. Going back to that post where I mentioned it for the first time, I quoted some others as well. The Qur’an is a book which has been sent as a guide for mankind till the Day of Judgment and hence it will have to be that strong enough. Alhamdulillah, it has been able to overcome every challenge that has been queued against it and inshAllah it’ll keep proving itself on its own merit till the Day of Judgment

Chuck asked for words. Obviously for a mass audience too much science would not be appropriate (a bit like the History Channel! ) but what is wrong with something like (deliberately in crude Biblical style)

All of God's Creation was one. And God clove it asunder and scattered all that He would form into the Earth, and Sun, and Moon and stars, throughout the heavens.

That might convince me!

All of us have our own views Brother, what might convince you may sound absurd to others and vice-versa. Allah being the Creator knows how to deal with us. Everything has a significance, every word and every letter used in the Qur’an must have been used because of some special wisdom known only by Him. For some, diminutive signs are enough for conviction and for some, the biggest miracles won’t suffice.

As an aside, I note your comments on the special place held by the matter-later-to-become Earth. Does that mean that you consider Earth and intelligent life on Earth to have a unique relationship with God, or could many millions or even billions of such planets exist? Off topic, but I am curious.

Uh… I’m not sure if I can answer this. But definitely Earth has a purposeful existence with God.

We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, but for just ends.
Surah Hijr - 15:85

Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is between!
Surah Anbiya - 21:16

"Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account)?"
Surah Muminoon - 23:115

Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them.
Surah Rum - 30:8

Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between!
Surah Saad - 38:27

We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, merely in (idle) sport:
We created them not except for just ends
Surah Dukhan - 44:38,39

Allah created the heavens and the earth for just ends, and in order that each soul may find the recompense of what it has earned, and none of them be wronged.
Surah Jathiya - 45:22

I don’t know if there are other planets with life but the Qur’an states the existence of Angels and Jinns whose presence has not been detected by Science so far.

Wallahu Alim
And Allah knows best eace:

 

[Ali_008]

People have been saying we're near the end times for hundreds of years now (thousands if you look to the Christians, and hundreds of thousands if you look to some older religions), and yet here we still are. No judgment day. Care to make a prediction for when it'll happen? I'd caution against it given all those who have before and been wrong.

Your reaction does make me angry sometimes but anyway the Qur'an states in many verses that there will be Unbelievers who'll never believe so I just keep myself patient with you. I hope you've also been following other posts as well where Alhamdulillah we just proved that the Big Bang is cited in the Qur'an. What do you have to say about that?

 

[duskiness]

offtopic:

People have been saying we're near the end times for hundreds of years now (thousands if you look to the Christians, and hundreds of thousands if you look to some older religions), and yet here we still are. No judgment day. Care to make a prediction for when it'll happen? I'd caution against it given all those who have before and been wrong.

you just reminded me of one of my favorite poems

 

[Pygoscelis]

Your reaction does make me angry sometimes but anyway the Qur'an states in many verses that there will be Unbelievers who'll never believe so I just keep myself patient with you. I hope you've also been following other posts as well where Alhamdulillah we just proved that the Big Bang is cited in the Qur'an. What do you have to say about that?

That's ok. Your reactions do the same to me sometimes. Its because we hold polar opposite views. I probably seem arrogant, disrespectful, and unappreciative to my maker to you. Just as you seem dangerously authoritarian to me. Its not how either of us express ourselves, its our basic values. I hold faith and obedience as vices and I think you hold them as values. Am I right?

As for the Big Bang theory being cited in the Quran, I have nothing to add to what Truble has already written. He's laid it all out very nicely. You've only proven what you claim to have proven to yourselves.

 

[The Mad Papist]

I've always thought St Thomas Aquinas have given a good account of himself when dealing with the question of the existance of God.

You should look up his works, you can find them on the 'net.

God Bless,
The Mad Papist

 

[Trumble]

I've always thought St Thomas Aquinas have given a good account of himself when dealing with the question of the existance of God.

You should look up his works, you can find them on the 'net.

I, for one, am heartily sick of argument by Wiki or Youtube! If you understand Aquinas' arguments sufficient to form an opinion as to their adequacy, you should have no trouble presenting them to us. Online references to the text where appropriate would be good.

 

[جوري]

You can't logically prove that there is no God, and you can't without a reasonable doubt prove that there is a God to everyone's satisfaction!

We are left with major circumstantial evidence from which we can apply our chosen conclusion!

with that I hope this thread will be closed!

 

[The Mad Papist]

I, for one, am heartily sick of argument by Wiki or Youtube! If you understand Aquinas' arguments sufficient to form an opinion as to their adequacy, you should have no trouble presenting them to us. Online references to the text where appropriate would be good.

I did not enter this thread to debate because I've been in these arguments too many times to keep at it. I just threw Aquinas out there for anyone interested.

I am going to assume for a moment that you are familiar with Aquinas?

God Bless,
The Mad Papist

 

[GuestFellow]

I, for one, am heartily sick of argument by Wiki or Youtube!

Geez take a chill pill.

 

[Rasema2]

[QUOTEdescribes the Big Bang?! Any connection is now so tenuous that claiming that one describes the other is, frankly, silly. Unless those pesky ol' questions can be answered.
][/QUOTE]

The Ayat(signs) speakingof Allah's creation aren't very detailed. But this is how the big bang is:

Verse 15:22 "And We send the winds fertilising, and cause water to descend from the sky, and give it you to drink. It is not ye who are the holders of the store thereof."
You said about this verse, "Winds only indirectly influence the formation of rain...".
Okay, now keep in mind what I said about allegorical verses and the Quran not being a book of science. Technically speaking, even when I say "clouds give rain" it is false. It is dust on which rain droplets condense due to electromagnetic interactions and then they break free from mutual electromagnetic attraction due to gravitational forces when they get too heavy etc etc. My point is, that the winds cause clouds to form is a good enough statement.

Verse 16:68 talks about how God created bees to take habitation in places like mountains, trees, and human dwellings. It uses the arabic word for "bee" which encompasses both male bees and female bees.
Verse 16:69 continues and says how God created the bee to make honey, but in this verse, only the female bee is referred to, not the male bee.
As we know, only female bees make honey, not male bees. So this is another big sign that the Quran is really from God, after all, who knew at that time that it was female bees that produced honey? Of course you could chalk this up to a lucky guess... but what about all the other "coincidences" in the Quran then?

(The following is one of my favorite verses)
Verse 21:30 first relevant part: "the heavens and the earth were enmeshed then we unmeshed them both"
We know today that about 5 billion years ago the earth and the solar system were one cloud of gas that was condensing. If we go back even more, our galaxy was a big cloud of gas that was condensing, and if we go back even more, the whole universe was a big cloud of gas that was condensing. This verse clearly refers to the fact that the Earth separated from the rest of the universe ("the heavens"), as if they were joined together, and now they are differentiated.
If you still have doubts as to whether this verse really refers to the primordial solar system gas cloud, then look at this verse which explicitly mentions the gas cloud:
Verse 41:11 "Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient."
"when it was smoke" clearly refers to the gas cloud, because as you know, when you look at gas clouds from far away in space, they look like smoke (we have pictures of thousands from telescopes similar to what our solar system must have been like 5 billion years ago).
Verse 21:30 second relevant part: "and we created from water every living thing"
The word in arabic used for "created" is different than the word that is used in the Quran to describe creation of for example, the universe and the Earth. The word used to describe the creation of the universe and the Earth is more like creation ex nihilo. But the word used here means more like "turning something into something else". This verse obviously cannot literally mean that living things are made from water because this is untrue. Instead the correct interpretation is that water is a prerequisite for life as we know it. After a planet, stable atmosphere, and good temperature, the most important thing needed is water. We know that life on Earth started in the oceans. Specifically, the oceans contained the amino acids and minerals along with water needed for life and God "turned" that into a living thing. And when we search on other worlds for life, after determining if they fit in the habitable zone around their star, what is the *first* thing scientists try to search for? It's the presence of liquid water. It's that important to life. That's what this verse points to.

 

[Eliphaz]

offtopic:

you just reminded me of one of my favorite poems

Nice poem

I feel at the end of the day, the title of the thread is a misnomer. We can never prove it one way or another. It will always come down to that magical word 'faith'. Muslims will always read the verse and see 'Big bang' whilst disbelievers will always see 'Heaven and Earth cloven asunder' and it will go on until eternity or at least until God says 'enough!' and we're all judged for which ever side we took. It sounds a bit fickle when you put it that way, but isn't that what it comes down to?

 

[Rasema2]

Nice poem

I feel at the end of the day, the title of the thread is a misnomer. We can never prove it one way or another. It will always come down to that magical word 'faith'. Muslims will always read the verse and see 'Big bang' whilst disbelievers will always see 'Heaven and Earth cloven asunder' and it will go on until eternity or at least until God says 'enough!' and we're all judged for which ever side we took. It sounds a bit fickle when you put it that way, but isn't that what it comes down to?

'Heaven and Earth cloven asunder' I wonder how have you come up with that conclusion. I pasted a nice interpretation by the Muslim side.

Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient."
"when it was smoke" clearly refers to the gas cloud, because as you know, when you look at gas clouds from far away in space, they look like smoke (we have pictures of thousands from telescopes similar to what our solar system must have been like 5 billion years ago).

 

[Ali_008]

Nice poem

I feel at the end of the day, the title of the thread is a misnomer. We can never prove it one way or another. It will always come down to that magical word 'faith'. Muslims will always read the verse and see 'Big bang' whilst disbelievers will always see 'Heaven and Earth cloven asunder' and it will go on until eternity or at least until God says 'enough!' and we're all judged for which ever side we took. It sounds a bit fickle when you put it that way, but isn't that what it comes down to?

I'd suggest you to go through some of the previous pages of this thread, Brother Trumble and I have already had a debate over the meaning of this verse but Alhamdulillah, all the ambiguity surrounding it has been cleared. eace:

 

[Eliphaz]

I'd suggest you to go through some of the previous pages of this thread, Brother Trumble and I have already had a debate over the meaning of this verse but Alhamdulillah, all the ambiguity surrounding it has been cleared. eace:

I've been following it page for page br. Ali, and unfortunately I am still not convinced that it is what you say it is.

Your explanations, whilst detailed and very splendid are at the end of the day just your opinion. If anything, I would say that br. Trumble's explanation (or attempt thereof) of the verse is probably closer to the tafsir of the early scholars than anything you have written, whilst I am sure that Ibn Kathir would be shocked by the liberties being taken by present-day Muslims in the interpretation of this verse.

 

[Eliphaz]

Speaking of Ibn Kathir, here is what is written in his tafsir on the verse you guys have been debating for so many pages:

Sufyan Ath-Thawri narrated from his father from `Ikrimah that Ibn `Abbas was asked; "Did the night come first or the day'' He said, "Do you think that when the heavens and the earth were joined together, there was anything between them except darkness Thus you may know that the night came before the day. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Umar said that a man came to him and questioned him about when the heavens and earth were joined together then they were parted. He said, "Go to that old man (Shaykh) and ask him, then come and tell me what he says to you.'' So he went to Ibn `Abbas and asked him. Ibn `Abbas said: "Yes, the heavens were joined together and it did not rain, and the earth was joined together and nothing grew. When living beings were created to populate the earth, rain came forth from the heavens and vegetation came forth from the earth.'' The man went back to Ibn `Umar and told him what had been said. Ibn `Umar said, "Now I know that Ibn `Abbas has been given knowledge of the Qur'an. He has spoken the truth, and this is how it was.'' Ibn `Umar said: "I did not like the daring attitude of Ibn `Abbas in his Tafsir of the Qur'an, but now I know that he has been given knowledge of the Qur'an.'' Sa`id bin Jubayr said: "The heavens and the earth were attached to one another, then when the heavens were raised up, the earth became separate from them, and this is their parting which was mentioned by Allah in His Book.'' Al-Hasan and Qatadah said, "They were joined together, then they were separated by this air.''

Now it is clear that they are referring to Heaven and Earth as in the seven Heavens the lowest one of which is adorned with stars, and the Earth as we know it today. These are the definitions which are (1) consistent with the rest of the Qur'an and (2) not consistent with the idea of the Big Bang.

How can you even begin to think about vegetation forming when the earth itself is not yet formed?

 

[Ali_008]

^^ whether you take "heavens" to mean the universe or the sky, either way it was attached to the earth. Could you please elaborate your doubt?