Malaysian row over word for 'God'

[Cognescenti]

Wait..I am seriously confused. Is not the word, "Allah" Arabic in origin? I can understand why Malay Muslims would use the Arabic word but are you saying the Arabic word became adopted into the Malay language as a more general term for any god, or is it more specific for God worshipped by monotheistic religions. I guess I can understand why Malay Christians might use the word "Allah" to denote "God" as I imagine Christianity came to Malaya after Islam, but the whole argument just seems silly. I suspect it is a politically motivated play on people's bigotry (in this case anti-Christian bigotry)


Somebody give me a shout next time there is a big fight between Christians and Jews over the word "Jehova" or "Yahweh". The Christians stole it from Hebrew texts and nobody even really knows how to pronounce it :giggling:

 

[Grace Seeker]

Somebody give me a shout next time there is a big fight between Christians and Jews over the word "Jehova" or "Yahweh". The Christians stole it from Hebrew texts and nobody even really knows how to pronounce it :giggling:

Well, on that note, I will admit that Jews do not use either of those terms to refer to God. So, the parallel probably isn't the same, but the above remains a good question.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Well, on that note, I will admit that Jews do not use either of those terms to refer to God. So, the parallel probably isn't the same, but it the above remains a good question.

At least them Jews don't ever ban Christians from using Yahweh or Jehovah as names for God.

One stupid Malay Muslim minister who doesn't understand his own religion when the Muslim scholars didn't even make a fuss over it.

 

[Woodrow]

lol, this is funny, we should save this article and give it to western anti-Islamics who so eagerly claim Allah is a moon god and shouldn't be used, here we have Christians DEMANDING they have the right to use the word Allah in their christian faith!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just thinking the very same thing. What an excellent gift, to have this to point to when a non-Muslim uses that old Moon-God fallacy.

 

[Cognescenti]

I was just thinking the very same thing. What an excellent gift, to have this to point to when a non-Muslim uses that old Moon-God fallacy.

That is funny because I had never heard anyone posit such a theory and I have lived in the US for quite a few years and I think I know more about Islam than most non-Muslim Americans. I think it might be best to just keep quiet about it.

 

[ricardo_sousa]

I was just thinking the very same thing. What an excellent gift, to have this to point to when a non-Muslim uses that old Moon-God fallacy.

honestly, I don´t see any contradiction. Allah is just a name. It represents something. the actual world context connects it with the God of the muslin faith (I know that the God is the same between the 3 major religions). But in the pre-Islamic Arabia it could have been the name for a moon god. what´s the confusion?

Now, some Christian Malaysians want to use the term Allah to refer to God also, maybe already been a influence of being so close to the Islamic culture for centuries. In the end is just a name, it can represent lots of things in different times.

 

[Woodrow]

honestly, I don´t see any contradiction. Allah is just a name. It represents something. the actual world context connects it with the God of the muslin faith (I know that the God is the same between the 3 major religions). But in the pre-Islamic Arabia it could have been the name for a moon god. what´s the confusion?

Now, some Christian Malaysians want to use the term Allah to refer to God also, maybe already been a influence of being so close to the Islamic culture for centuries. In the end is just a name, it can represent lots of things in different times.

except a study of linguistics does show that for the early centuries the Christians did use variations of Allaah(swt) in their worship. God's name is not limited to one group of people and at one time all of the people of the work did worship the one God(swt)

 

[Grace Seeker]

That is funny because I had never heard anyone posit such a theory and I have lived in the US for quite a few years and I think I know more about Islam than most non-Muslim Americans. I think it might be best to just keep quiet about it.

Oh, I have. I suppose it just depends on who you keep company with. But, I do indeed plan to keep this article in storage someplace for the next time the discussion comes up. I've mentioned it before, but no one is willing to accept it, they just refer to their missionary friends serving in Africa where you have villages in internal conflict pitting Christianity and Islam at the center of it.

 

[ricardo_sousa]

except a study of linguistics does show that for the early centuries the Christians did use variations of Allaah(swt) in their worship.

very interesting. Do you have any source to that studies? It would be interesting to see where those Christian communities lived and in what centuries.

 

[Woodrow]

very interesting. Do you have any source to that studies? It would be interesting to see where those Christian communities lived and in what centuries.

Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic are very closely related languages. The writting grammar of them is nearly identical and words are written with only the root letters, (ie 3 consonants) Although the shape of the letters differ the pronunciation of the letters are virtually the same in all three languages.

we know that the early Christians used the Aramaic language initially , the alleged last words of Jesus are "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani? ("My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?", Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34)." or sometimes written as "Eli, Eli la ma Saba kathani" It is nearly impossible to transliterate into the English alphabet. Eloi/ Eli ( are the diminuative forms of Elah)pronounced Al-ah) Elohim (pronounced Al-aheem) and Allaah (more correctly Al-Laah) are forms of the same root word Alif Lam Hah in all three languages. to quote the exact sources would require hunting down early grammar texts of the three languages. Fortunatly there is an easier way. that is through bible usage.

EL: God ("mighty, strong, prominent") used 250 times in the OT See Gen. 7:1, 28:3, 35:11; Nu. 23:22; Josh. 3:10; 2 Sam. 22:31, 32; Neh. 1:5, 9:32; Isa. 9:6; Ezek. 10:5. El is linguistically equivalent to the Moslem "Allah," but the attributes of Allah in Islam are entirely different from those of the God of the Hebrews. ELAH is Aramaic, "god." Elah appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jer. 10:11 (which is in Aramaic, and is plural, "gods"). In Daniel (the Aramaic sections) Elah is used both of pagan gods, and of the true God, also plural. Elah is equivalent to the Hebrew Eloah which some think is dual; Elohim is three or more. The gods of the nations are called "elohim." The origin of Eloah is obscure. Elohim is the more common plural form of El. Eloah is used 41 times in Job between 3:4 and 40:2, but fewer than 15 times elsewhere in the OT.

Source:http://www.ldolphin.org/Names2.html

Elah

Although God inspired most of the Old Testament books to be written in Hebrew, Daniel and Ezra wrote portions of their books in Aramaic or Syriac, the language spoken throughout the Persian Empire during their time. It had also replaced Hebrew as the language of common speech of the Jews.

Nowhere in the Aramaic passages do we find the names YHWH or Elohim. Examining the manuscripts reveals that in dozens of places the writers rendered the Hebrew names for God into the Aramaic word Elah. It is just as proper for the Hebrew El and Elohim to be translated into the English word God, as it was for Daniel and Ezra to use the Aramaic word Elah.

Source: http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/367

the word God did not appear until the year 825 so variations of that were not used by the Early Christians.

What is the origin of the word God?

Ultimately, the origin of the word god is uncertain but it appeared in various spellings in Old English c. 825 and had cognates in the Old Frisian, Old Saxon, Dutch, Old High German, Old Norse, and Gothic languages. There are two Aryan roots - one meaning 'to invoke' (Sanskrit) and the other meaning 'to pour, to offer sacrifice' and 'to boast' (Greek). The word was first used in a non-Christian sense to refer to a superhuman person who was worshipped and believed to have power over nature and the fortunes of man. The words for god were originally neuter, but when Germanic tribes adopted Christianity, God became masculine in form. In the Old Testament various names for God are used: YHWH, Adonai [my Lord], Jehovah, and Yahweh. The most common name for God in the Old Testament is Elohim, a plural form, but used as a singular when speaking of God. The spelling god is first seen in print around 900.

Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/language/e34.html

 

[north_malaysian]

yes, but if you notice the Q it says LIKE IRAN, so its not that they dont want an Islamic state per se, its that they dont want an Iranian style state and you cant blame them can you?

OK... you are right...

And maybe they dont want Malaysia to be like Iran, because they're Shiites. And Malaysians are Sunnis.

I think the question should say ""LIKE SAUDI ARABIA".

 

[north_malaysian]

64% want the Sharia Laws to remain as it is,

Actually 64% want Sharia Laws to remain as it is under the Federal Constitution.

Under the Fed. Consti, there is no higher law than the Federal Constitution in Malaysia.

But in the same fed. consti. Shariah Law has it own jurisdiction and even the Fed. Consti. could not interfere sharia courts jurisdiction.

It means that majority of Malaysian Muslims respect the Federal Constitution as the highest law of the land but in the same time it could not interfere in Sharia Court matters.

For example, under Fed. Consti. Malaysians have the freedom to change their religion. But if a Muslim want to change his/her religion, he/she should apply for it from Sharia Courts. According to Lina Joy case, Federal Consti. could not meddling in Sharia Court affairs even it's the highest law of the land.

and yet 79% (combined) think that they are either not strict enough or are already too strict.

How strict is our Sharia Laws:

SYARIAH CRIMINAL OFFENCES (FEDERAL TERRITORIES) ACT 1997

Section 3 - Wrongful worship
(1) Any person who worships nature and does any act which shows worship or reverence of any person, animal, place or thing in any manner contrary to Islamic Law shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both.

Section 4 - False Doctrine
(1) Any person who teaches or expounds in any place, whether private or public, any doctrine or performs any ceremony or act relating to the religion of Islam shall, if such doctrine or ceremony or act is contrary to Islamic Law or any Fatwa for the time being in force in Federal Territories, be guilty of an offence shalll on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 7 - Insulting, or bringing into contempt, etc. the religion of Islam
Any person who orally or in writing or by visible representation or in other manner:-

(a) insults and brings into contempt the religion of Islam;

(b) derides, apes or ridicules the practices or ceremonies relating to the religion of Islam; or

(c) degrades or brings into contempt any law relating to the religion of Islam for the time being in force in the Federal Territories.

shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or both.

Section 14 - Failure to perform Friday prayers.
Any male person, being "baligh", who fails to perform Friday prayers in a mosque within his "Kariah" (parish) for 3 consecutive weeks without "Uzur Shar'ie"or without any reasonable cause shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 1,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.

Section 15 - Disrespect for Ramadhan
Any person who during the hours of fasting in the month of Ramadhan:-

(a) sells to any Muslim any food, drink, cigarette or other form of tobacco for immediate consumption during such hours; or

(b) openly or in public place is found to be eating, drinking or smoking,

shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 1,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, and for a second or subsequent offence to a fine not exceeding RM 2,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year or to both.

Section 16 - Non-payment of "Zakat" and "Fitrah"
Any person who, being liable to pay Zakat or Fitrah:-

(a) refuses or wilfully fails to pay Zakat or Fitrah; or

(b) refuses or wilfully fails to pay the zakat or fitrah through an "amil" appointed, or any other person authorized, by the Majlis (Religious Council) to collect zakat and fitrah,

shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 1,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

Section 18 - Gambling
(1) Any person who gambles, or is found in a gaming house, shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to both.

Section 19 - Intoxicating Drinks
(1) Any person who in any shop or other public place, consumes any intoxicating drink shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both.

(2) Any person who makes, sells, offers, or exhibits for sale, keeps or buys any intoxicating drink shall be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to both.

Section 20 - Incest
Any person who commits incest shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 21 - Prostitution
(1) Any woman who prostitutes herself shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding six strokes or any combination thereof.

(2) Any person who:-

(a) prostitutes his wife or a female child under his care; or

(b) causes or allows his wife or child under his care to prostitute herself,

shall be guilty of an offence and on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

 

[north_malaysian]

Section 23 - Sexual intercourse out of wedlock
(1) Any man who performs sexual intercourse with a woman who is not his lawful wife shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination of thereof.

(2) Any woman who performs sexual intercourse with a man who is not her lawful husband shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 25 - Liwat (Sodomy)
Any male person who commits "Liwat" (Sodomy) shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 26 - Musahaqah (Lesbian sexual intercourse)
Any female person who commits "Musahaqah" shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 27 - Khalwat
Any:-

(a) man who is found together with one or more women, not being his wife or mahram; or

(b) woman who is found together with one or more men, not being her husband or mahram,

in any secluded place or in a house or room under circumstances which may gice rise to suspicion that they were engaged in immoral acts shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or both.

Section 28 - Male person posing as woman
Any male person who, in any public place, wears a woman's attire and poses as a woman for immoral purposes shall be guilty of an offence amd shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 1,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 1 year or to both.

 

[north_malaysian]

I guess I can understand why Malay Christians might use the word "Allah" to denote "God" as I imagine Christianity came to Malaya after Islam, but the whole argument just seems silly. I suspect it is a politically motivated play on people's bigotry (in this case anti-Christian bigotry)

Under the Federal Constitution, there would be no such thing as "Malay Christian" as a "Malay" must be a Muslim. If a Malay ceased to be a Muslim, he would no longer be a "Malay" and lost his special rights as a Malay.

The reasons why Malay Language is used in the churches:

1) Most of the younger generation of non-Muslim natives of Borneo (ie. Iban, Kadazan, Murut, Kelabit, Dusun etc) speak Malay Language as first language.

2) The Christian Aborigines of Peninsula Malaysia could only read the Bible in Malay Language as their native languages have no writing systems and Malay Language is the only foreign language they knew.

3) The Christian Indonesian immigrants could only understand Malay Language as there are no Indonesian Language churches in Malaysia.

 

[north_malaysian]

One stupid Malay Muslim minister who doesn't understand his own religion when the Muslim scholars didn't even make a fuss over it.

They want to show to the Malaysian Muslims that they're the Champion of defending Malay special right to use "Allah" solely.

Of course... as they "really" want Muslim votes too...:exhausted

 

[wilberhum]

Now what non-Muslim would want to live under those laws?

No me, that's for sure.

 

[north_malaysian]

That is funny because I had never heard anyone posit such a theory and I have lived in the US for quite a few years and I think I know more about Islam than most non-Muslim Americans. I think it might be best to just keep quiet about it.

I've heard of this theory about 3,4 years ago in a Malaysian forum, where an ex-Muslim claiming that he left Islam because Allah is the moon Goddess and we Muslims still having the deity being kept inside Kaabah... what a freaking person. And he's not a trinitarian as he believes God is only made up of 2 entities Jesus and Father. And he refused to tell us his church or sect too.:exhausted

 

[north_malaysian]

But in the pre-Islamic Arabia it could have been the name for a moon god. what´s the confusion?

The Moon Goddess name is Al-Laat (اللت) which is way different than Allah ( الله )

Now, some Christian Malaysians want to use the term Allah to refer to God also, maybe already been a influence of being so close to the Islamic culture for centuries. In the end is just a name, it can represent lots of things in different times.

The nationalist Malays want exclusive right to use "Allah". That's why this problem exists.

 

[north_malaysian]

Now what non-Muslim would want to live under those laws?

No me, that's for sure.

Those laws are meant for Muslims only. For non-Muslims they should only follow our Common Laws.

 

[wilberhum]

Those laws are meant for Muslims only. For non-Muslims they should only follow our Common Laws.

But the police to capture those who do not keep those laws, the courts to prosecute them and the jails to hold them will be paid for with my tax money.

Remember the survey?
Should the Non-Muslims be subjected under Hudood Laws?
Yes - 28%

IHMO It is insane to try to run a country with multiple contradictory laws.