Man needing a saviour???

[Seeker1066]

Another thread has me thinking. Thanks to all of you who have been posting about Christianity's belief that Jesus had to die so sin can be forgiven as well as Islam's counter response.

I have been taught that God cannot stand sin. One sin is enough to merit eternal hellfire. The Breach of one sin can only be paid with the blood of God's only son. Man cannot atone for the dammage he has commited. This is taught that as God is just the penalty must be paid it cannot be waived.

This is not making sense to me. God is Omniscent, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. The whole teaching of the bible is to forgive the repentent offender. Nowhere does it say forgive the offender after he makes reperations. If God is merciful than he can forgive any offense aginst him. If man can wound God so much that he must bleed to be able to forgive what man has done how can he than be God?? Can the clay pot harm the potter? Can the cornstalk harm the planter? How can creation become so powerful that he can limit God's ability to grant mercy without God himself dying?

I'm very interested in your comments on this.

Peace to all

 

[Woodrow]

This is not making sense to me. God is Omniscent, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. The whole teaching of the bible is to forgive the repentent offender. Nowhere does it say forgive the offender after he makes reperations. If God is merciful than he can forgive any offense aginst him. If man can wound God so much that he must bleed to be able to forgive what man has done how can he than be God?? Can the clay pot harm the potter? Can the cornstalk harm the planter? How can creation become so powerful that he can limit God's ability to grant mercy without God himself dying?


Peace to all

Peace,

I only quoted part in order to get directly to the issue.

You are correct. Us humans can not harm Allaah(swt) and He need only think it for us to be forgiven. There is no need for him to do anything for us to be forgiven, except him saying we are forgiven, It is his universe and he has full control over it, no matter what we humans think he needs to do,

 

[Seeker1066]

Peace,

I only quoted part in order to get directly to the issue.

You are correct. Us humans can not harm Allaah(swt) and He need only think it for us to be forgiven. There is no need for him to do anything for us to be forgiven, except him saying we are forgiven, It is his universe and he has full control over it, no matter what we humans think he needs to do,

Thanks for your help posting this and the reply. Justice is defined as "•the quality of being just or fair
•judgment involved in the determination of rights and the assignment of rewards and punishments
•judge: a public official authorized to decide questions brought before a court of justice".


According to this God is just when he determines the rewards or punishments. Therefore if God decides to not assign us blame that is Just. If he decides to assign us Punishment that is Just. To say that God would really like to forgive us but he cannot until he himself incarnates and dies is not by definition Justice. God says to man do this and I will reward you do this and I will punish you. This seems just and most fair. I can't but help feel that Christianity is limiting God by the claim of atonement. If you accept that man has hurt God and he will accept no remorse of man alone than man is hopeless. Why accept a hurt from one who cannot atone when you are God and need accept nothing that you do not will to accept? As many of you know I am seeking Truth. This is a point that I had not as yet considered.

Peace to all here

 

[Woodrow]

One error us humans make is we fail to see what arrogant and self-rightious creatures we are. We want god to be the perfect human. We do this by attributing him with human characteristics.

This in turn gives us a resemblance of being nearly the same as god. Man has often created a god in the image of man himself. Man does not seem to want to worship god. Man wants to worship an enhanced version of a man.

We can indeed be very arrogant creatures. Many of us seem to want a god we can lead around on a kite string. We punish god, by wishing him to die in punishment for giving us free will and then we want to become exempt from the consequences of free will.

Maybe arrogant is the wrong word, but it is the only one I can think of that seems to suit us when we decide how we want god to be.

I deliberatly used the uncapitalized god as it is apparant many do not want to worship a god who is God(swt)

 

[Trumble]

One error us humans make is we fail to see what arrogant and self-rightious creatures we are. We want god to be the perfect human. We do this by attributing him with human characteristics.

This in turn gives us a resemblance of being nearly the same as god. Man has often created a god in the image of man himself. Man does not seem to want to worship god. Man wants to worship an enhanced version of a man.

Indeed. Would you not also agree that it is this assignment of what are the best things about us to God in this anthropomorphic fashion that is at least partially responsible for that arrogance and self-righteousness? With the best bits alienated (a word that will clue in some that this is hardly an original thought!) only the worst bits are left to fester?

 

[Hiroshi]

I have been taught that God cannot stand sin. One sin is enough to merit eternal hellfire.

I would like to include a thought here and I hope this isn't considered off-topic.

If a person is pre-destined to sin and consequently to suffer eternal, unbearable suffering in hellfire, wouldn't it have been more merciful on the part of God, to have never brought that person into existence in the first place?

 

[Woodrow]

I would like to include a thought here and I hope this isn't considered off-topic.

If a person is pre-destined to sin and consequently to suffer eternal, unbearable suffering in hellfire, wouldn't it have been more merciful on the part of God, to have never brought that person into existence in the first place?

That would be true, if man was pre-destined to live a life of sin. But, all we do, is by our own free will. Life gives us rewards and punishments as the consequences of our own actions.

Full knowledge of all things past, present and future is not pre-destination. It is full knowledge.

We reap the fruits of our own plantings and harvests.

 

[Hiroshi]

That would be true, if man was pre-destined to live a life of sin. But, all we do, is by our own free will. Life gives us rewards and punishments as the consequences of our own actions.

Full knowledge of all things past, present and future is not pre-destination. It is full knowledge.

We reap the fruits of our own plantings and harvests.

We could think of an illustration of a scientist predicting that there will be an earthquake, based on his knowledge and research. Let's say that his prediction comes true. Is he then to blame for the destruction that the earthquake has caused? Of course not. He has merely been a passive observer.

But in the case of God, as taught in the Qur'an, it seems that God is more than just a passive observer. God is presented as actively directing the will of man at all times, either to do good or to do bad. Surah 81:29 says: "ye shall not will except as Allah wills".

 

[Woodrow]

We could think of an illustration of a scientist predicting that there will be an earthquake, based on his knowledge and research. Let's say that his prediction comes true. Is he then to blame for the destruction that the earthquake has caused? Of course not. He has merely been a passive observer.

But in the case of God, as taught in the Qur'an, it seems that God is more than just a passive observer. God is presented as actively directing the will of man at all times, either to do good or to do bad. Surah 81:29 says: "ye shall not will except as Allah wills".

Let us go back to your scientist and imagine a perfect scientist who by his knowldge actually knows from his research an eathquake will occur. Think about that for a moment.

Now think in terms that Allaah(swt) is perfect and will make no error. He knows, he is not predicting. Yes all things are through the will of Allaah(swt) and our free will is the result of him willing us to have it. Allaah(swt) is the source of all power and with out his will we are powerless to do anything. Because he has willed us to have free will, does not mean we can not make our own choices. My grandson wants to go to the movies. I give him the $5 to go. Does that mean I made him go to the movies even though I made it possible and know he is going to the movies?

Actually the Christian concept of the all-knowing aspect of Allaah(swt) is nearly identical with our view. The Presbyterian is the closest, but they often get accused of believing man has no free will.

 

[Predator]

If a person has a disease , he should take the injection and no other person can take it on his behalf.

Similarly why should Jesus feel the pain on the cross , instead of sinners .

What kind of mercy and justice is that, God could not punish the evil doers and kills his own son ?

 

[Hiroshi]

If a person has a disease , he should take the injection and no other person can take it on his behalf.

Similarly why should Jesus feel the pain on the cross , instead of sinners .

What kind of mercy and justice is that, God could not punish the evil doers and kills his own son ?

In Surah 37:107, Abraham's son is ransomed by an animal that is sacrificed in his place. Was that something wrong?

 

[Pygoscelis]

I have a number of issues with the old testament bible, as I'm sure most moral minded people do. Things like dashing children against rocks, stoning disobedient children to death, stoning rape victims, genocides done at God's command etc. Most modern Christians in defence to that will tell me that there is a new covenant, under gentle Jesus, meek and mild. They are then often surprised to hear that I have even stronger objections to the new testament bible.

The introduction of a savior required a central role for the concept of hell. And i say it is even more immoral. Consider the following:

1. To need a savior you need something to be saved from. You have to believe that we all are deserving of eternal torment and can not redeem ourselves on our own. I find that a very disturbing mindset.

2. If somebody really believes the above, that they have done something so bad they deserve eternal torment as punishment, they should take that punishment. Not allow some innocent third party to suffer in their place. Allowing YOUR just punishment to be put off on somebody else (even if they are a volunteer) is a complete abdication of personal responsibility. We would not let volunteers take the place of people on death row and set mass murderers free.

3. To redeem sin God demands blood, pain, and suffering. Why not good deeds? Why not demand that people do service towards helping others to make up for their wrongs? What does torturing wrongdoers accomplish? It is just a sadistic sort of cosmic vengeance. It isn't like reformation is a possibility, these people are to be tortured forever (no lesson can be learned or ways reformed after one is in hellfire).

4. This is all as much for disbelief in God (or the right God) and not following the proper worship customs as it is for actual immoral behaviour, and it is the same level of punishment for all. The guy who says the wrong prayer to the wrong concept of God gets the same punishment as Hitler. That is just crazy.

 

[Insaanah]

Originally Posted by Airforce
If a person has a disease , he should take the injection and no other person can take it on his behalf.

Similarly why should Jesus feel the pain on the cross , instead of sinners .

What kind of mercy and justice is that, God could not punish the evil doers and kills his own son ?

In Surah 37:107, Abraham's son is ransomed by an animal that is sacrificed in his place. Was that something wrong?

That was simple a test of obedience from Allah. Nobody was going to have to die for anybody's sins.

Peace.

 

[Hiroshi]

Let us go back to your scientist and imagine a perfect scientist who by his knowldge actually knows from his research an eathquake will occur. Think about that for a moment.

Now think in terms that Allaah(swt) is perfect and will make no error. He knows, he is not predicting. Yes all things are through the will of Allaah(swt) and our free will is the result of him willing us to have it. Allaah(swt) is the source of all power and with out his will we are powerless to do anything. Because he has willed us to have free will, does not mean we can not make our own choices. My grandson wants to go to the movies. I give him the $5 to go. Does that mean I made him go to the movies even though I made it possible and know he is going to the movies?

Actually the Christian concept of the all-knowing aspect of Allaah(swt) is nearly identical with our view. The Presbyterian is the closest, but they often get accused of believing man has no free will.

What you say makes sense and places moral responsibility squarely on the shoulders of man. This seems most logical. However, I have read a number of hadiths that appear to paint a different picture:

Muslim bin Yasar said that when 'Umar bin al-Khattab was questioned about the verse, "When your Lord took their offspring from the backs of the children of Adam ..." [Qur`an 7:172], he replied that he had heard God's messenger say when he was questioned about it, "Verily God created Adam and then rubbed his back with His right hand and took out a progeny from him and said: 'I created these for Paradise and with the actions of the inmates of Paradise which they will do.' Afterwards He rubbed his back with His left hand and took out a progeny from him and said: 'I created these for Fire and with the actions of the inmates of Fire which they will do.'" Someone asked the Prophet, "What are then deeds for?" The Prophet replied, "When God creates a servant for Paradise he makes him do deeds of the people of Paradise until he dies doing the deeds of the people of Paradise and He then puts him in Paradise on account of them (i.e. the deeds). And when God creates a servant for Fire he makes him do deeds of the people of Fire until he dies doing the deeds of the people of Fire and He then puts him in Fire on account of them."


Ahmad ibn Hambal records the following hadith:

(Abu Nadra told that the Prophet was heard by a companion called Abu Abd Allah as saying that) God took a handful in His right hand and another in His left saying, "This (i.e., the handful in His right hand) is for this (i.e., Paradise), and that (i.e., the handful in His left hand) is for that (i.e., Hell), and I do not care." (Ahmad)


Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over, is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'" (Muslim)


Suraqa bin Malik came to the Prophet and said, "O Messenger of God! Explain our religion for us (in this matter): Suppose we are born now. For what do we do deeds? For that with which the pen has dried (after writing maqadir) and the fates are sealed? Or, for that which we meet in the future (without being ordained)?" The Prophet replied, "But no, for that with which the pen has dried (after writing maqadir) and the fates are sealed." ... (Muslim on the authority of Jabir)


According to a hadith found both in Bukhari and Muslim, the Prophet said that during pregnancy:

God sends an angel and orders him to write four things: his provision, his age, and whether he will be wretched (shaqiyy) or blessed (sa'id). Then the spirit (ruh) is breathed into him. And by God, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which God has ordered the angel to write) proceeds, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing proceeds and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it. (Bukhari on the authority of Ibn Mas'ud; Muslim also reports something parallel)

 

[Hiroshi]

That was simple a test of obedience from Allah. Nobody was going to have to die for anybody's sins.

Peace.

But as we all know, this same pattern or ritual was followed by Abraham's descendants for many centuries when, under the law of Moses, animal sacrifices were offered to God for forgiveness of sins. It was the blood, representing the life of the sacrificed animal, that made atonement for sins (Leviticus 17:11). The animal died in the place of the one offering the sacrifice.

 

[Danah]

In Surah 37:107, Abraham's son is ransomed by an animal that is sacrificed in his place. Was that something wrong?

Instead of jumping to the conclusion like that, read the full story, verses from 102 till you reach 107.


And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him, (Abraham) said: O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee. So look, what thinkest thou? He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded. Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast. (102) Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face, (103) We called unto him: O Abraham! (104) Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good. (105) Lo! that verily was a clear test. (106) Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim. (107)

 

[Insaanah]

But as we all know, this same pattern or ritual was followed by Abraham's descendants for many centuries

Our concern here is not about what the people after Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) did, but about him himself and what Allah commanded him to do. At no stage does Allah say to him, "I want you to sacrifice your son because of your or his sins". Abraham and Ismail (peace be upon them both) were amongst the most upright and noble of humanity.

Allah tells us Himself that the sacrifice that Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was ordered to do was nothing more than a test, as sister Danah has shown from the Qur'an.

Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Best I can tell the Abe & Isaac story is a loyalty test. Not unlike a mobster handing a new recruit a gun and telling him to shoot his brother (not knowing the gun isn't loaded).

 

[Insaanah]

^ I find your comparison of God and His noble Prophets with sinful mobsters, repulsive.

Abraham (peace be upon him) was not a "new" Prophet at the time of this incident, so in no way does your "example" hold any validity.

Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

It is a clash of obedience and morality is my point. A moral ending to the story would have been Abraham refusing to kill Isaac, saying something like "I will not kill my innocent son Lord, for you have taught me it is wrong to kill" and God saying he passed the test.

This idea of confusing obedience for morality, or of them clashing and obedience trumping is a common theme across abrahamic dogma. It comes up again and again. It is one of the primary problems I have with these faiths.