Man needing a saviour???

[Hiroshi]

Just some questions. If Jesus(as) was a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, where is the sacrifice? If you accept that Jesus(as) is God(swt) he could not die, only the physical body could. But, the physical body would only have been an insignificant bit of created matter, replaceable by God(swt) if he so desired. Giving up something which is insignificant is not a sacrifice. What was the sacrifice? Where is the price of sacrifice paid and to whom was the sacrifice made too? Who paid the price of the sacrifice, if you say God(swt) does that mean Jesus(as) was God(swt)'s property and not God(swt)? Who was the sacrifice made to? To God(swt)? But, does it makes sense in concept of a sacrifice to pay the sacrifice price to yourself?

Did Jesus(as) know he was God(swt)?

My view here, and I will upset someone again for saying so, is that Jesus isn't God. God is immortal and cannot die. But Jesus could die once, and then, according to Romans 6:9, after his resurrection he would never die again (as a reward from God).

Jesus was without sin, so he was the equal of what Adam had been before he sinned. One perfect man (Adam) introduced sin into the human family and so another perfect man (Jesus) was needed to buy back what Adam had lost.

Jesus had the potential to father a whole new perfect race of humanity that would be without sin. But he never did so. Any potential descendants died with him. So although he was just one man, his sacrifice could be viewed as equal to repurchasing all mankind that have ever lived.

Jesus isn't God and so was not sacrificing himself to himself. By his obedience he vindicated and sanctified God's name. Satan brought reproach upon God when he claimed that no human would prove faithful out of genuine love and loyalty (Job 2:4-5). But Jesus provided the perfect answer to Satan's taunting challenge (Proverbs 27:11).

 

[Insaanah]

^ The Islamic view is that there are no such complications (such as God needing to repurchase His own property, and sacrifice a human or the like) involved in forgiving mankind:

"Then Adam received from his Lord words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful." (Qur'an, 2:37)

And such is the case that Allah is All Forgiving for those who believe in Him, repent from wrongdoing and ask sincerely.

Peace.

 

[Hiroshi]

Notice that it first mentions that Allah will forgive them. No sacrifice of any sort has been mentioned. After the Muslim in question has been forgiven (out of Allah's Divine Mercy), if the Muslim was next in line to Hell, and Allah forgave him out of His Mercy, then the next Jew or Christian will go in (not the righteous of old).

...

So they are not being unduly punished instead of Muslims. They are receiving the punishment they would always have received. There is no sacrifice of any sort being made. Allah forgives whom He Wills through His Divine Mercy, and not by unjustly making an innocent person carry the burden of another.

The Hadith said:

"Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire." And it was explicitly stated that these Jews or Christians were placed in the "stead" of sinful Muslims.

Your explanation seems to be that after a Muslim is forgiven, solely on account of God's mercy, then a Jew or Christian would just happen to be the next in line for Hell-Fire. But the word "rescue" in the above phrase is clearly tied in with this providing a Jew or Christian in the stead of the Muslim. I don't see that you have completely explained away the difficulty.

Can you show me any commentary to support your suggestions?

 

[Insaanah]

I don't see that you have completely explained away the difficulty.

^ There is no difficulty to be explained.

I can go better than commentary. I will bring a verse of the Qur'an:

"Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved. Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget, or miss the mark! Our Lord! Lay not on us such a burden as thou didst lay on those before us! Our Lord! Impose not on us that which we have not the strength to bear! Pardon us, absolve us and have mercy on us, Thou, our Protector, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk." (Pickthall translation of Qur'an: 2:286)

Thus each person is responsible for their own deeds, and Allah forgives out of His Mercy, and not due to some sacrifice on His part, as shown in the hadeeth below:

The mercy of Allaah is what will admit His believing slaves to Paradise on the Day of Resurrection. No one will ever enter Paradise because of his deeds alone, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No one’s deeds will ever admit him to Paradise.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “No, not even me, unless Allaah showers me with His Mercy. So try to be near to perfection. And no one should wish for death; he is either doing good so he will do more of that, or he is doing wrong so he may repent.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5349; Muslim, 7042

Thus forgiveness and entry into paradise, will be due to Allah's Mercy.

In Saheeh Muslim it is narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah has one hundred parts of mercy, of which He sent down one between the jinn, mankind, the animals and the insects, by means of which they are compassionate and merciful to one another, and by means of which wild animals are kind to their offspring. And Allaah has kept back ninety-nine parts of mercy with which to be merciful to His slaves of the Day of Resurrection.”

Muslim, al-Tawbah, 6908

It was narrated that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: “Some prisoners were brought to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and there was a woman among the prisoners who was searching (for her child). When she found her child she embraced him and put him to her breast. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to us, ‘Do you think that this woman would throw her child in the fire?’ We said, ‘No, by Allaah, not if she is able not to.’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Allaah is more merciful to His slaves than this woman is to her child.’”

Al-Bukhaari, 5653; Muslim, 6912.

So Allah, All Merciful, will forgive and admit into Paradise, those whom He wills, out of His Mercy.

And some more verses of the Qur'an:

"Say, The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is better for he who fears Allah . And injustice will not be done to you, [even] as much as a thread [inside a date seed]."(4:77, part)

"And fear the Day when you will be returned to Allah. Then every soul will be paid in full that which it has earned, and they will not be treated unjustly." (2:281)

So nobody will be thrown unjustly into hell who did not deserve to be there.

Peace.

EDIT: Just one question that popped into my head, if you don't mind.

So although he was just one man, his sacrifice could be viewed as equal to repurchasing all mankind that have ever lived.

If God had to re-purchase His own property, who did He purchase it from? Does that mean that God's own property went out of His control, and into somebody else's control for a while eg shaytaans control or someone else's control? Presumably you believe that God paid the price to repurchase His property, the price being Jesus (peace be upon Him). So who was the other party that God made the sacrifice to, and bought back His property from?

Peace.

 

[Hiroshi]

(3:108)... Allah (swt) Wills no wrong to His Creation."

Allah has the perfect right to do anything that Allah chooses with His Creation. So Allah can do no wrong. How could it be otherwise?

Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over, is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'" (Muslim)

Pickthall renders Surah 91:7-8 as: "And a soul and Him who perfected it and inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and what is right for it." Dawood reads: "by the soul and Him that moulded it and inspired it with knowledge of sin and piety:"

All of my English translations read similarly except for Rodwell (amongst Muslims a most unpopular version). This gives the impression that Surah 91:7-8 is merely saying that God gave to each soul a conscience.

But according to the hadith quoted above, Mohammed himself did not understand Surah 91:7-8 to mean that!

Rodwell renders the verses: "By a Soul and Him who balanced it, and breathed into it its wickedness and its piety". This does not just say that God gave us a sense of right and wrong. It says that God foreordained (breathed into) each one to commit specific acts of wickedness and specific acts of piety. This is the explanation given in the hadith: The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'


I am not happy with these translations when they seem to be pulling the wool over our eyes.

 

[aadil77]

never heard of rodwell, why not stick to more the established ones www.Quran.com

 

[Hiroshi]

never heard of rodwell,

My point exactly.

Btw, many thanks for the link.

 

[Hiroshi]

^ There is no difficulty to be explained.

I can go better than commentary. I will bring a verse of the Qur'an:

"Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved. Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget, or miss the mark! Our Lord! Lay not on us such a burden as thou didst lay on those before us! Our Lord! Impose not on us that which we have not the strength to bear! Pardon us, absolve us and have mercy on us, Thou, our Protector, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk." (Pickthall translation of Qur'an: 2:286)

Surah 17:15 says: "no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another." But then Surah 16:25 says: "they may bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection and some of the burdens of those whom they misguide without knowledge."

EDIT: Just one question that popped into my head, if you don't mind.



If God had to re-purchase His own property, who did He purchase it from? Does that mean that God's own property went out of His control, and into somebody else's control for a while eg shaytaans control or someone else's control? Presumably you believe that God paid the price to repurchase His property, the price being Jesus (peace be upon Him). So who was the other party that God made the sacrifice to, and bought back His property from?

A human life needed to be provided and sacrificed in order to satisfy the righteous requirements of God's own divine justice.

 

[Insaanah]

I am not happy with these translations when they seem to be pulling the wool over our eyes.

I don't think it's a good idea to say that the wool is being pulled over your eyes, when it's a simple case of you not understanding something.

As far as you are concerned, if something has been foreordained, then that means there is no free will, and thus, to you, the Qur'an contradicts the hadeeth. I have explained the issue on the previous page of this thread.

I am re-quoting the hadeeth you mentioned, and putting my explanation for you in red.

Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over (i.e. Allah's pleasure and Paradise), is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' (i.e. Will Allah will see how things pan out and then decide on heaven and hell, and thus that Allah doesn't know our final destination yet either?) The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'"Allah already knows what choices will be made, with the free will and conscience man has been given, and thus whether the final destination will be heaven or hell, and that has all been written down. (Muslim)

But according to the hadith quoted above, Mohammed himself did not understand Surah 91:7-8 to mean that!

See above.

Peace.

 

[Woodrow]

Surah 17:15 says: "no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another." But then Surah 16:25 says: "they may bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection and some of the burdens of those whom they misguide without knowledge."


A human life needed to be provided and sacrificed in order to satisfy the righteous requirements of God's own divine justice.

I see that meaning they will reap the punishment of misguiding. It is their burden they mislead. They are not taking away or paying for another persons burden. It is their fault they misled and they will pay the penalty for doing so. They also are guilty of the sins committed by the people they mislead. But this is a separate guilt and is not removing or paying for another person's guilt.

Very similar to in a court of law, in which a person who helped a person commit a crime can be convicted as an accessory to the crime. If a persons commits a crime because you misled them, you are guilty of being an accessory and you share the burden of the punishment for the crime. You both get punished, and being the one who did the misleading, you may even receive the greater punishment.

 

[Insaanah]

Surah 17:15 says: "no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another." But then Surah 16:25 says: "they may bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection and some of the burdens of those whom they misguide without knowledge."

You forgot to quote 35:18, which says, "and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted".

There is no contradiction between this and other Ayat such as 16:25, or 17:15.

For those who called others to do evil will bear the sin of their own deviation as well as the sin of those whom they led astray, without detracting the least amount from the burden of those people, and none of this burden shall be removed from them. (Tafseer Ibn Kathir)

So, the burden they are carrying is for misguiding people; they shall carry the burden of that evil deed of theirs, which made others do bad deeds, without the burden of the one who obeyed and followed them being lightened in the least bit.

Peace.

 

[syed_z]

Allah has the perfect right to do anything that Allah chooses with His Creation. So Allah can do no wrong. How could it be otherwise?

Pickthall renders Surah 91:7-8 as: "And a soul and Him who perfected it and inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and what is right for it." Dawood reads: "by the soul and Him that moulded it and inspired it with knowledge of sin and piety:"

All of my English translations read similarly except for Rodwell (amongst Muslims a most unpopular version). This gives the impression that Surah 91:7-8 is merely saying that God gave to each soul a conscience.

But according to the hadith quoted above, Mohammed himself did not understand Surah 91:7-8 to mean that!

Rodwell renders the verses: "By a Soul and Him who balanced it, and breathed into it its wickedness and its piety". This does not just say that God gave us a sense of right and wrong. It says that God foreordained (breathed into) each one to commit specific acts of wickedness and specific acts of piety. This is the explanation given in the hadith: The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'


I am not happy with these translations when they seem to be pulling the wool over our eyes.

I've already explained what i had to... all i see is that you and many others like you on www.Islamicboard.com are not here to learn or understand about Islam... you people are here to argue against Islam and somehow create doubts in our hearts.... which you will fail if you are trying to, because why would you keep arguing when some one has already answered it, either you are just playing around or here to create doubts, which you have failed .... and trust me... even though people like you have spent so much time here on the Islamic forum, every one is STILL a Muslim Praise be to Allah, none of us has changed and never will, because no sensible person would trade Truth (Islam) for Falsehood.... So imagine all the time you and others like you have wasted of your life, may be if you would have spent this time learning something better or helping mankind in some way, may be it would have been better for you.... think about it, you still have time... all the best..

 

[Snowflake]

Another thread has me thinking. Thanks to all of you who have been posting about Christianity's belief that Jesus had to die so sin can be forgiven as well as Islam's counter response.

I have been taught that God cannot stand sin. One sin is enough to merit eternal hellfire. The Breach of one sin can only be paid with the blood of God's only son. Man cannot atone for the dammage he has commited. This is taught that as God is just the penalty must be paid it cannot be waived.

This is not making sense to me. God is Omniscent, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. The whole teaching of the bible is to forgive the repentent offender. Nowhere does it say forgive the offender after he makes reperations. If God is merciful than he can forgive any offense aginst him. If man can wound God so much that he must bleed to be able to forgive what man has done how can he than be God?? Can the clay pot harm the potter? Can the cornstalk harm the planter? How can creation become so powerful that he can limit God's ability to grant mercy without God himself dying?

I'm very interested in your comments on this.

Peace to all

Chapter Psalm 91 clearly and indisputably confirms that Jesus never got crucified!

Taken from: http://answering-christianity.com/ac.htm

It is, first of all, important to know that Psalm 91 is referenced more than once in the New Testament for Jesus Christ. So we know for certainty that Psalm 91 is referring to the coming Messiah in the Bible:

Luke 4:10-11

10 For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you (Christ) to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Matthew 4:5-6

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Satan said so to Jesus Christ and Jesus answered hem: "It is also written..." (matthew4:7) So according the new testament Jesus agreed that It written about him. In Psalm91 we see it.


Let us now take a look at Psalm 91:

(Please pay specially attention to Psalm 91:11-12, 15)
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]
2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."
3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked. (According to the Noble Quran and the original writings of the Disciples of Jesus, Jesus was not crucified, and he watched the crucifixion of the doomed person).
9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-
10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).
13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

Footnotes:
a. Psalm 91:1 Hebrew Shaddai
b. Psalm 91:2 Or He says

There is no question!

There is no question that the emphasized parts above, especially in Psalm 91:11-12, 15 and the others, clearly and indisputably agree with the Noble Quran's and Isaiah 52:13 Verses that are shown below. Jesus was neither crucified nor resurrected, and he was protected and lifted by GOD Almighty. Also, the New Testament, again, confirms that Psalm 91 is referring to Jesus Christ.



• Will hear his cries (Psalm 91:15) and save will him (Psalm 91:3).
• He will cover him with His Protection (Psalm 91:4).
• Christ will then not have any fear in him (Psalm 91:5).
• Christ will then observe with his own eyes the punishment of the crucified ones (Psalm 91:8).
• No harm or disaster will even come near Christ (Psalm 91:10....this even contradicts him getting beaten up before crucifixion).
• GOD Almighty will send down the Angels to protect him and lift him (Psalm 91:11-12, 14). Not even his foot will strike the ground from his enemies pushing, grappling and punishment.
• Christ will be delivered and honored (Psalm 91:15).
• His life will be prolonged (extended) and he will live to even see his offspring (Isaiah 53:10, which by the way contradicts Jesus never got married and had children. In Islam's Noble Quran's 13:38, however, it is quite possible that Jesus Christ had wives and children).


• His life will overpower death (Isaiah 53:12).

Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I've already explained what i had to... all i see is that you and many others like you on www.Islamicboard.com are not here to learn or understand about Islam... you people are here to argue against Islam and somehow create doubts in our hearts.... which you will fail if you are trying to, because why would you keep arguing when some one has already answered it, either you are just playing around or here to create doubts, which you have failed .... and trust me... even though people like you have spent so much time here on the Islamic forum, every one is STILL a Muslim Praise be to Allah, none of us has changed and never will, because no sensible person would trade Truth (Islam) for Falsehood.... So imagine all the time you and others like you have wasted of your life, may be if you would have spent this time learning something better or helping mankind in some way, may be it would have been better for you.... think about it, you still have time... all the best..

This post is not directed at you and your interaction above, it is just something that this post brought to my mind. It highlights a common misperception some of the muslims have on this board.

We non-muslims who express opposing views are not here to create doubt and change you, we're here to exchange different vantage points. Of course both the muslims and non-muslims will sometimes be puzzled and yes even dismayed at how the other sees things, but does it not fascinate you?

Discussing matters with people who don't share my worldview is what brought me here and keeps me here. Your worldview (Islam) is polar opposite to my own, the opposite in almost every conceivable way, and I don't encounter it in my real life hardly at all. So it is very interesting to see what some of your fellow muslims have to say about things.

Nobody I've seen on this board wants to change your view, for if we did then we would lose the very reason we come here. If I wanted to talk to like minded people I could just call my neighbours. I speak my mind here as strongly as I do because I am confident that you are solid in your faith and that nothing I say will shake you. If I thought you were fragile I wouldn't say what I do. Its why I avoid the sections aside from comparitive religion and world events (which I see as your virtual mosque). I figure if you venture into these sections here you are venturing forth into the larger marketplace of ideas, so are strong in your convictions.

 

[Hiroshi]

I see that meaning they will reap the punishment of misguiding. It is their burden they mislead. They are not taking away or paying for another persons burden. It is their fault they misled and they will pay the penalty for doing so. They also are guilty of the sins committed by the people they mislead. But this is a separate guilt and is not removing or paying for another person's guilt.

Very similar to in a court of law, in which a person who helped a person commit a crime can be convicted as an accessory to the crime. If a persons commits a crime because you misled them, you are guilty of being an accessory and you share the burden of the punishment for the crime. You both get punished, and being the one who did the misleading, you may even receive the greater punishment.

But suppose that the one misled, by pure chance, ended up committing no sin. How could the one misleading then bear some of the other's burden? I think that we need to concede that something does depend on the amount of damage that was caused by the person who was misled.

So it isn't just black and white. There are gray areas. If someone belonged to a group (or actively supported them) and then that group began to do evil things, wouldn't he then become accountable for their sins by continuing to support them?

Looking at things another way, couldn't the good deeds of someone else help a person, even if the person was already burning in hell for their sins?

 

[Hiroshi]

I don't think it's a good idea to say that the wool is being pulled over your eyes, when it's a simple case of you not understanding something.

As far as you are concerned, if something has been foreordained, then that means there is no free will, and thus, to you, the Qur'an contradicts the hadeeth. I have explained the issue on the previous page of this thread.

I am re-quoting the hadeeth you mentioned, and putting my explanation for you in red.

Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over (i.e. Allah's pleasure and Paradise), is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' (i.e. Will Allah will see how things pan out and then decide on heaven and hell, and thus that Allah doesn't know our final destination yet either?) The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'"Allah already knows what choices will be made, with the free will and conscience man has been given, and thus whether the final destination will be heaven or hell, and that has all been written down. (Muslim)





See above.

Peace.

Peace my friend.

Consider another hadith:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/...rces/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/077.sbt.html

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611 says:

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses".


If Adam exercised free will and sinned, how could he then successfully excuse himself and argue that he was not to blame since Allah had given him that fate?

 

[aadil77]

Peace my friend.

Consider another hadith:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/...rces/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/077.sbt.html

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611 says:

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses".


If Adam exercised free will and sinned, how could he then successfully excuse himself and argue that he was not to blame since Allah had given him that fate?

nice find, didn't even know prophet Musa spoke to prophet Adam, prophet Musa straight forward as usual

All I would say is everything happens by Allahs will, it might have been His will for things to plan out this way

 

[Woodrow]

But suppose that the one misled, by pure chance, ended up committing no sin. How could the one misleading then bear some of the other's burden? I think that we need to concede that something does depend on the amount of damage that was caused by the person who was misled.

So it isn't just black and white. There are gray areas. If someone belonged to a group (or actively supported them) and then that group began to do evil things, wouldn't he then become accountable for their sins by continuing to support them?

Looking at things another way, couldn't the good deeds of someone else help a person, even if the person was already burning in hell for their sins?

Now to see if I can clarify this without causing further confusion.

Person A misleads person B
Person B Commits serious sins as a result of being misled and is punished
Person A will be also punished for those sins as he was an accessory to them for misleading

Person A properly leads person B
Person B does good deeds as a result of being properly led and is rewarded
Person A also receives rewards as he was an accessory in causing the good deeds

Person A commits sins in the desire of person B being punished
Person B did nothing so is not punished

Person A does good Deeds in the desire of Person B being rewarded
Person B did nothing so is not rewarded

Person A is not going to be affected in anything person B does
Unless person B is doing them as a result of what person A has done


You can do all of the good deeds possible not one of them will bring me any rewards, unless I was instrumental in leading you to do the good deeds.

Jesus(as) did very many good deeds and is/ will be rewarded for them.
I will not receive one reward for the Good deeds He has done, because I did not lead him to doing the deeds.

Hitler did many Evil deeds and is/will be punished for them.
I will not be punished for any deed Hitler did, as I did not lead him to do them

It is very Probable that Jesus(as) and all of the Prophets(PBUT) will share in the rewards for any good deeds I may do as it is through their teachings they passed down I did them. It is also probable some evil people will share in the punishments for the bad deeds I do, if I do them as a result of their teachings.

 

[Hiroshi]

You can do all of the good deeds possible not one of them will bring me any rewards, unless I was instrumental in leading you to do the good deeds.

Jesus(as) did very many good deeds and is/ will be rewarded for them.
I will not receive one reward for the Good deeds He has done, because I did not lead him to doing the deeds.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, number 601 says: "the Prophet added, 'I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted .' I will say, 'O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.' Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.'''

See:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/...rces/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/093.sbt.html


This narrative doesn't say that those who were taken out of Hell contributed to Mohammed's good deeds. The only criteria here is that Mohammed pleads for them.

 

[Hiroshi]

I've already explained what i had to... all i see is that you and many others like you on www.Islamicboard.com are not here to learn or understand about Islam... you people are here to argue against Islam and somehow create doubts in our hearts.... which you will fail if you are trying to, because why would you keep arguing when some one has already answered it, either you are just playing around or here to create doubts, which you have failed .... and trust me... even though people like you have spent so much time here on the Islamic forum, every one is STILL a Muslim Praise be to Allah, none of us has changed and never will, because no sensible person would trade Truth (Islam) for Falsehood.... So imagine all the time you and others like you have wasted of your life, may be if you would have spent this time learning something better or helping mankind in some way, may be it would have been better for you.... think about it, you still have time... all the best..

I'm sorry that you say these things, Syed. I am constantly learning with every reply that I get on this forum. But I also believe that I have something to offer. And I feel that it is beneficial to get to grips with these matters.