Man needing a saviour???

[Hiroshi]

The link you gave for the translation is very possibly the most inaccurate translation I have ever read. I doubt that many errors would be accidental. The author of that translation is the late Dr. Rashad Khalifa an apostate who was very anti-Islamic. His Translation was a deliberate attempt to provide a false translation of the Quran to demean and attack Islam.

Thanks for the information. I honestly didn't know that.

 

[Hiroshi]

and yet you keep insisting on using his translation
....

:bravo:

Doesn't look very clever does it? But sometimes useful information can be found in his translation.

 

[Woodrow]

I might get banned eventually anyway although I am trying to stick to the rules of the powers that be. Anyway, thanks for the warning. I truthfully had no idea that anything was amiss. Khaleefa's rendering didn't look any different to me than a dozen others although I now notice unusual wording in Surah 3:55 and Surah 5:117.

Have no fear the Brother was doing you a favor. Yes we will ban people who consistantly post links to deviant site. But we do understand that most non-Muslims would not recognize a deviant site and as long as we feel the member is doing so in good faith and without malice we will issue a warning and only request they do not repeat it. Be sincere in your questions and do not post out of malice is all we ask from all members. We are human too and we do understand errors will be made. We only ask that a member stop repeating the same errors after being warned.

Kalifa was a very shrewd man. Some of his translation is among the best seen. But he was very devious and used his knowledge to slip in some very non-Islamic thoughts. He pictured himself as and called himself a Prophet. It appears he was slowly re-translating the Qur'an into a manner that would support his claim for prophet-hood. I suspect he was trying to establish a caliphate with himself as the Caliph .Foolish man. No Muslim accepts any translation as being the Qur'an, we know all translations contain errors and the unintended opinion of the author. While his deviancy in translating might slip past those with no knowledge of Arabic any person knowing even rudimentary Arabic immediately sees the glaring false translations in his work. The sad part is he was an expert in both Arabic and English. He had the potential of writing the most accurate translation ever, but he misused his expertise in hopes of self gain.

 

[YusufNoor]

Doesn't look very clever does it? But sometimes useful information can be found in his translation.

actually, Khaleefa is a MAJOR Kufar! just toss his translation out the window, along with his "miraculous" number 19 crap!

btw, i saw somewhere that you are a Jehovah's witness. i KNEW there was something about you that i liked!
did you know that Jehovah is NOT God's Name, nor is it a proper translation of the tetragrammaton?

it WAS a Jehovah's Witness that got me interested in studying the Bible over 3 decades ago!

how do you feel that Christians like Grace Seeker claim that you are NOT a Christian?

:wa:

 

[Dave...]

Peace Dave.

I know I am nitpicking but I do not fully agree with this sentence.

Is God bound by these truths? Yes. That's why we can trust in His Word.

Allaah(swt) is beyond the concept of being bound. It is not that he is bound by those Truth it is He, who is the source of these Truths and they are in accordance with His will.

It is we who are bound by those truths and we can trust in his word, because His will is the source of all things..

Thanks Woodrow. If you don't mind, I will also nit pick, or perhaps elaborate is the better word.

It is true to say that God is His own standard, but sometimes people misunderstand that statement. That's why I try to avoid saying it in that way. Those who incorrectly understand that statement usually believe in a kind of form of relativism, meaning that they believe something like ... 'God can lie, but because He is God, it is not a lie.' I disagree with that kind of reasoning. I believe that if God tells us that He cannot lie, that He cannot lie. That is not a deep theological matter.

Granted, at the same time it does not mean that we, as mere mortals, have the capability to understand everything that God does, thus making us able to judge Him with fallen assumptions. I'm speaking with regards to God's judgments. But, and this is a very big BUT, does this mean that we should then take that idea to it's limits and say that because our mind is not His mind, and because our thoughts are not His thoughts, that nothing in God's Word can be taken as absolute because in the end we just don't know?

Woodrow, I'm sure that you would agree with me, that there is a balance to be considered here. We can hold to God's Word and know it's always the truth. We also know that sometimes, for various reasons, there are going to be limitations to our understanding the depths of everything in His word. I'm sure that you would agree that we must all be careful to try ask the difficult questions, and seek the answers to those questions, for any of us to hold to the correct balance here, and not use those limitations that I spoke of as an excuse to believe in something apart from testing it carefully.

Here are some scriptures that come to mind in light of this discussion.

God cannot go against His own nature (Habakkuk 1:13). The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works (Psalms 145:17). Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe (2 Chronicles 19:7). Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong (Job 34:10). To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him (Psalms 92:15).

Thus says the LORD, "What injustice did your fathers find in Me, That they went far from Me And walked after emptiness and became empty? (Jeremiah 2:5).


Dave

 

[Woodrow]

Thanks Woodrow. If you don't mind, I will also nit pick, or perhaps elaborate is the better word.

It is true to say that God is His own standard, but sometimes people misunderstand that statement. That's why I try to avoid saying it in that way. Those who incorrectly understand that statement usually believe in a kind of form of relativism, meaning that they believe something like ... 'God can lie, but because He is God, it is not a lie.' I disagree with that kind of reasoning. I believe that if God tells us that He cannot lie, that He cannot lie. That is not a deep theological matter.

Granted, at the same time it does not mean that we, as mere mortals, have the capability to understand everything that God does, thus making us able to judge Him with fallen assumptions. I'm speaking with regards to God's judgments. But, and this is a very big BUT, does this mean that we should then take that idea to it's limits and say that because our mind is not His mind, and because our thoughts are not His thoughts, that nothing in God's Word can be taken as absolute because in the end we just don't know?

Woodrow, I'm sure that you would agree with me, that there is a balance to be considered here. We can hold to God's Word and know it's always the truth. We also know that sometimes, for various reasons, there are going to be limitations to our understanding the depths of everything in His word. I'm sure that you would agree that we must all be careful to try ask the difficult questions, and seek the answers to those questions, for any of us to hold to the correct balance here, and not use those limitations that I spoke of as an excuse to believe in something apart from testing it carefully.

Here are some scriptures that come to mind in light of this discussion.

God cannot go against His own nature (Habakkuk 1:13). The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works (Psalms 145:17). Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe (2 Chronicles 19:7). Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong (Job 34:10). To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him (Psalms 92:15).

Thus says the LORD, "What injustice did your fathers find in Me, That they went far from Me And walked after emptiness and became empty? (Jeremiah 2:5).


Dave

Peace Dave,

No problem. Each of us only has a small concept of the omnipotence of God(swt) it is understandable we will use different phrases as we are both trying to describe the infinite. Perhaps we can agree that the power of God(swt) is impossible to understand. Each of us will have a different description of what we see and why we see what we see. My preference is to use will not instead of can not. But, that is most likely simply personal preference. I see the use of "can not" as placing a limit. You see it differently. In any case I think we can both agree the power of God(swt) is beyond ourunderstanding and we each only understand within the terms of what we have the ability to understand.

I hope that made sense. Honest I actually do speak English and grew up as a Connecticut Yankee. I just seem to have the ability to make the simple complex.

 

[Seeker1066]

Dave how would you than reconcile God ordering us to save the innocent and condemning the Baal child sacraficers yet have the Israelites kill babies???

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "NIV

 

[Hiroshi]

actually, Khaleefa is a MAJOR Kufar! just toss his translation out the window, along with his "miraculous" number 19 crap!

Yes, but I was referring to Rodwell's translation for the "useful information", not Khaleefa's. I don't have Khaleefa's version and had never heard of it until Woodrow put me wise. Now I have been told not to quote from Rodwell either.

btw, i saw somewhere that you are a Jehovah's witness. i KNEW there was something about you that i liked!

Thanks. Likewise.

did you know that Jehovah is NOT God's Name, nor is it a proper translation of the tetragrammaton?

it WAS a Jehovah's Witness that got me interested in studying the Bible over 3 decades ago!

how do you feel that Christians like Grace Seeker claim that you are NOT a Christian?

:wa:

Well, the Bible says many times that this is God's real name. The rendering "Jehovah" is derived from the consonants of one word and the vowels of another so a mistake was involved. But the fact is that we cannot be sure today what the vowels were in any case since the Jews stopped pronouncing the word until it's true sound passed out of memory.

I don't mind Grace Seeker and myself having our disagreements as long as we can have friendly discussions.

So, Jehovah's Witnesses have got you interested in the Bible for 30 years?

 

[Hiroshi]

Hi, мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє.

Seeying since we "muslims" are refferred to as the "Muhammadans", when we are not! and are called the "muslims" therefore proving that source is not accurate by any means.

Sorry. Hope you weren't offended.

I shall quote you

i thought you was talking about surah 19:33, you suddenly jump and bring up some next source which doesnt support muslims or Islaam esp when we are reffered to as the "Muhammadans" :-\

Anyways . . .

This is the Surah you mentioned Surah Maryam verse 33
\"And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!\"

In no way does this surah prove the death or crucifiction took place with Jesus (pbuh), Is this verse Jesus Pbuh says peace be upon him the day he WAS born, the day he DIES, not died, and the day he SHALL be raised alive.

And Surah 19:31 says that Jesus would give alms or charity (zakat) for as long as he lives. Has he then been giving money to charity for the past 2,000 years while he has been in heaven?

 

[Hiroshi]

Before a person goes about comparing words on the basis of having the same root. They had best know enough Arabic to understand the word they are comparing.

Stop and think in English ::: for Example the word bolt can be used in 2 opposite meanings -- To bolt the board down. To bolt away in fear. Same word same root yet in one usage it means to secure something and in the other usage it means to break loose from.

It is not wise to look for things in a language if you do not know the language. The fact that words have the same root is not necessarily indicative they have the same meaning.

Mutawaffika and it's derivatives appear more than 25 times in the Qur'an and always imply death, dying or causing to die (except for Surah 6:60 and 39:42 where the word figuratively refers to sleep).

Please see Surah 2:234; 2:240; 3:55; 3:193; 4:15; 4:97; 5:117; 6:61; 8:50; 10:46; 10:104; 12:101; 13:40; 16:28; 16:32; 16:70; 22:5; 32:11; 40:67; 40:77; 47:27.

I suggest to you that the definition of the word as it has been translated is determined more by context than by customary usage. Only in Surah 3:55 and 5:117 where the word is applied to Jesus does the translator avoid referring to death.

My question is why? Why is it so important to believe that Jesus didn't die when Allah "took him up" as was the case with all other humans? Are there hadith's that explicitly state that Jesus has never died up until now?

 

[Hiroshi]

By the way, check this out.

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/

Thanks. It is a lot to take in but very interesting.

 

[Woodrow]

Mutawaffika and it's derivatives appear more than 25 times in the Qur'an and always imply death, dying or causing to die (except for Surah 6:60 and 39:42 where the word figuratively refers to sleep).

Please see Surah 2:234; 2:240; 3:55; 3:193; 4:15; 4:97; 5:117; 6:61; 8:50; 10:46; 10:104; 12:101; 13:40; 16:28; 16:32; 16:70; 22:5; 32:11; 40:67; 40:77; 47:27.

I suggest to you that the definition of the word as it has been translated is determined more by context than by customary usage. Only in Surah 3:55 and 5:117 where the word is applied to Jesus does the translator avoid referring to death.

My question is why? Why is it so important to believe that Jesus didn't die when Allah "took him up" as was the case with all other humans? Are there hadith's that explicitly state that Jesus has never died up until now?

I do not know of any ahadith that address that Jesus(as) never died. But the Ahadith are a collection of what Muhammad said, not what is in the Qur'an. Apparently this was never an issue until recent times. We need not make it an issue if we look back as to what has always been taught in the Islamic colleges beginning with the oldest one

Al-Azhar University: This university, located in Egypt, is the world’s second oldest surviving degree-granting institute. Founded in 970-972, this university serves as a center for Arabic literature and Sunni Islamic learning. Al-Azhar university concentrates upon a religious syllabus, which pays special attention to the Quranic sciences and traditions of the Prophet Muhammad on the one hand, while also teaching all modern fields of science.

You are a sadistic little rascal making an old man work ;D


but you are getting on the right track in what it takes to translate Arabic into English. You are getting a grasp I see in this sentence.

I suggest to you that the definition of the word as it has been translated is determined more by context than by customary usage.

Arabic words do derive their meaning based upon the context. You have just given me a very large serving to explain why a particular meaning is used in each of those ayyats.

On a side note in regards to humans we do not view the death of a human in quite the same way as death in animals. We believe humans are aware of being in the grave and those who die unrepentant begin their eternal suffering at the moment they enter the state of death and there is suffering or Peace for the person the entire time they are in the grave dependent upon their repentance of lack of repentance. The torments of the grave can be very horrifying. In many ways our concept of the soul is similar to the JW concept in that the soul and body are basically the same or integrated into being the make up of a human. (not exactly that but only way I can explain it in my own words) A human is composed of 3 parts Jism (The physical body) Nafs (The persona or personality) and the Rooh (The non dieing spiritual aspect) Death in humans is another aspect of life and does not mean the person has ceased to exist. You need to grasp this concept before you can begin to understand mutawaffika.

Inthe ayyats you are quoting above you are using words that have the same root as mutawaffika, but they are not the same word as mutawaffika and you need to understand the full context of the surah to understand what is meant.


In 2:234 the word used is يُتَوَفَّوْنَ yutawaffawna

Which in English carries the meaning of die. It is used again in 240. Which is with context of the ayyats as the ayyats are giving instructions as to what a man should do to provide for his widow.

In 3:55 the word used is مُتَوَفِّيكَ mutawaffika which when standing alone has no English equivelent. But it is not a stand alone word and must be used in a phrase in this case the minimal phrase is: إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ innee mutawaffika warafiAAuka

Which when standing alone translates as I am causing you to die, but when taken in full context of the ayyat إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

It now translates as

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

In this context Allaah(swt) is speaking to Jesus(as) and in the context of what is being said the concept of taking up is more logical and within the context of what Allaah(swt) is saying. Since the first revelation of the Qur'an, this has always been seen as the meaning. There never was any question as to what was meant until the English translation came about. Keep in mind there never was an English translation attempted directly from Arabic until 1734 and the first acceptable English translation directly from Arabic was by Pickthall in 1930.

I will attempt to get back to this in a day or 2 at the moment I am getting ready to drive to Fargo to spend the day with my wife who is still in the hospital and will be for at least 2 more weeks. Currently she requires daily physical therapy until she can walk good enough to navigate her way through the jungle we call home. (We have too many stairs and she is not yet able to climb stairs, when she regains that ability, she gets to come home.)

 

[Hiroshi]

I do not know of any ahadith that address that Jesus(as) never died. But the Ahadith are a collection of what Muhammad said, not what is in the Qur'an. Apparently this was never an issue until recent times. We need not make it an issue if we look back as to what has always been taught in the Islamic colleges beginning with the oldest one

You are a sadistic little rascal making an old man work ;D


but you are getting on the right track in what it takes to translate Arabic into English. You are getting a grasp I see in this sentence.



Arabic words do derive their meaning based upon the context. You have just given me a very large serving to explain why a particular meaning is used in each of those ayyats.

On a side note in regards to humans we do not view the death of a human in quite the same way as death in animals. We believe humans are aware of being in the grave and those who die unrepentant begin their eternal suffering at the moment they enter the state of death and there is suffering or Peace for the person the entire time they are in the grave dependent upon their repentance of lack of repentance. The torments of the grave can be very horrifying. In many ways our concept of the soul is similar to the JW concept in that the soul and body are basically the same or integrated into being the make up of a human. (not exactly that but only way I can explain it in my own words) A human is composed of 3 parts Jism (The physical body) Nafs (The persona or personality) and the Rooh (The non dieing spiritual aspect) Death in humans is another aspect of life and does not mean the person has ceased to exist. You need to grasp this concept before you can begin to understand mutawaffika.

Inthe ayyats you are quoting above you are using words that have the same root as mutawaffika, but they are not the same word as mutawaffika and you need to understand the full context of the surah to understand what is meant.


In 2:234 the word used is يُتَوَفَّوْنَ yutawaffawna

Which in English carries the meaning of die. It is used again in 240. Which is with context of the ayyats as the ayyats are giving instructions as to what a man should do to provide for his widow.

In 3:55 the word used is مُتَوَفِّيكَ mutawaffika which when standing alone has no English equivelent. But it is not a stand alone word and must be used in a phrase in this case the minimal phrase is: إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ innee mutawaffika warafiAAuka

Which when standing alone translates as I am causing you to die, but when taken in full context of the ayyat إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

It now translates as

In this context Allaah(swt) is speaking to Jesus(as) and in the context of what is being said the concept of taking up is more logical and within the context of what Allaah(swt) is saying. Since the first revelation of the Qur'an, this has always been seen as the meaning. There never was any question as to what was meant until the English translation came about. Keep in mind there never was an English translation attempted directly from Arabic until 1734 and the first acceptable English translation directly from Arabic was by Pickthall in 1930.

I will attempt to get back to this in a day or 2 at the moment I am getting ready to drive to Fargo to spend the day with my wife who is still in the hospital and will be for at least 2 more weeks. Currently she requires daily physical therapy until she can walk good enough to navigate her way through the jungle we call home. (We have too many stairs and she is not yet able to climb stairs, when she regains that ability, she gets to come home.)

Many thanks for your valuable research, Woodrow. And I am very sorry to put an old man to so much work.

I wish you well and I hope and pray that your wife improves in her health and condition. Thanks again.

 

[Seeker1066]

May God(Allah) speed you wives recovery and bring her home to you.

 

[Hiroshi]

A human is composed of 3 parts Jism (The physical body) Nafs (The persona or personality) and the Rooh (The non dieing spiritual aspect) Death in humans is another aspect of life and does not mean the person has ceased to exist.

These Arabic words sound very similar to the Hebrew words that I am familiar with. "Nafs" might be the equivalent of the Hebrew "Nephesh" which is usually translated "soul" and means a living person or animal. "Rooh" sounds like "Ruah" which is Hebrew for "spirit" and has about 7 different meanings (including, for example, a spirit being such as an angel, or the life force of a person or animal, or breath). But neither word means something that continues conscious existence after the death of the body.

 

[aadil77]

These Arabic words sound very similar to the Hebrew words that I am familiar with. "Nafs" might be the equivalent of the Hebrew "Nephesh" which is usually translated "soul" and means a living person or animal. "Rooh" sounds like "Ruah" which is Hebrew for "spirit" and has about 7 different meanings (including, for example, a spirit being such as an angel, or the life force of a person or animal, or breath). But neither word means something that continues conscious existence after the death of the body.

From what I know our concious state in the grave will be very different to that of this world, time will either go fast for the believer or very slow for the disbeliever

 

[Hiroshi]

From what I know our concious state in the grave will be very different to that of this world, time will either go fast for the believer or very slow for the disbeliever

So I have read in the hadiths.


There is an account in the Qur'an (can't remember where just now) of a man who Allah causes to die for a hundred years and then restores to life. When he is asked how much time has passed, he replies: "A day, or part of a day." But then he is shown his dead donkey which has rotted to bare bones. And he realises that it has been a hundred years.

You could perhaps take that to mean that time for the dead man was speeded up. But you could also take it to mean that he was entirely unconscious while dead.

 

[aadil77]

So I have read in the hadiths.


There is an account in the Qur'an (can't remember where just now) of a man who Allah causes to die for a hundred years and then restores to life. When he is asked how much time has passed, he replies: "A day, or part of a day." But then he is shown his dead donkey which has rotted to bare bones. And he realises that it has been a hundred years.

You could perhaps take that to mean that time for the dead man was speeded up. But you could also take it to mean that he was entirely unconscious while dead.

Like I said a different state of conciousness, possibly more similar to a dream, one thing to remember is that we will be asked 3 questions in the grave by angels so I think there has to be some kind of conciousness to answer those questions properly

 

[Hiroshi]

Like I said a different state of conciousness, possibly more similar to a dream, one thing to remember is that we will be asked 3 questions in the grave by angels so I think there has to be some kind of conciousness to answer those questions properly

Please explain one thing.

In Surah 17:1 we are told that Muhammed is taken on a miraculous journey to a sacred mosque. There, according to hadith, he sees, among others, Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

Now with the exception of Jesus, we should expect these men who died long ago to be confined to their graves, according to what you have told me. Why then does Muhammed see them in the mosque?

 

[Hiroshi]

Like I said a different state of conciousness, possibly more similar to a dream, one thing to remember is that we will be asked 3 questions in the grave by angels so I think there has to be some kind of conciousness to answer those questions properly

I am wondering if the Qur'an says anywhere at all that the soul is conscious before a person is resurrected. All of the references to consciousness in the grave or elsewhere seem to be in the hadiths. Am I wrong here? Can you show me the 3 questions in the grave by angels in the Qur'an?