message in Christianity

[NoName55]

.......
Relationship between Persons in Trinity is high above my simple mind. ..........

question @ some one else Not sister duskiness: so us with simple minds are doomed or saved

Ah well

and gods are persons, ok

 

[duskiness]

Edit:
I nearly forgot about the one in [FONT=&quot]Catholicism[/FONT]

yes, that's true because Catholics are Christians. Christians (unless they are unitarians - who are really minor minority, often not considered "Christians") are trinitarian monotheists. We believe that there is one God of three person. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God. But ONE God.
How does it works? Mystery. He is God in the end...

Putting this in more formal way

We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.

Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.

The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.

Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit:

And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal;

as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit:

And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.

Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God:

And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord:

And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten;

the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father;

the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other;

 

[duskiness]

question @ some one else Not sister duskiness: so us with simple minds are doomed or saved

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Let's hope that being simple mined, we fulfill condition of being "poor in spirit"...

 

[NoName55]

[FONT=&quot]yes, that's true because Catholics are Christians. Christians (unless they are Unitarians - who are really minor minority, often not considered "Christians") are Trinitarian monotheists. We believe that there is one God of three persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Father is God, Son is God, and Holy Spirit is God. But ONE God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

ok, Peace but I feel that [FONT=&quot]Trinitarian monotheist is a contrdiction of itself since tri denotes 3 and mono equates to one, singular
[/FONT]

How does it work? Mystery.

[FONT=&quot]It certainly is a mystery to me
according to John.20:17 Jesus said "I am ascending to my Father and your Father to my God and your God.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]John.11:41-43 Jesus lifts his eyes toward heaven and prays, “I thank you that you heard me, and I know that you always hear me." [/FONT]We see consistently he is praying toward heaven just like all the people in the O.T.
So why pray if you’re G-d.

Mathew. 26:39-42 In Gethsamane he prays three times to the Father in doing his will. Why does he ask for the Father to let this cup pass if he is G-d, Isn’t this like asking himself?

I’ve asked and often got elaborate and confusing answers from many people and when I don’t understand I am accused of being member of some anti Trinitarian cult and some time far worse abuse.

He is G-d in the end...

[FONT=&quot]And forever was and will be[/FONT]

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Let's hope that being simple mined, will be accepted as "poor in spirit".

I feel that they are not poor in spirit, rather they are blessed in spirit but are poor materially (for meek shall inherit the earth)
He announces that those who should be considered blessed are not the rich, the powerful, the influential, but those who are poor, humble, unassuming, and pure of heart, those who mourn and are oppressed. (I looked it up in 15 version of Bible including kjv)

Ma'asalaama (go in peace)

 

[AbuAbdallah]

More Questions:
It seems to me that Christianity has no sense of bid'ah (innovations in the religion) for example, the Christmas tree, which really has no basis in Christianity isn't shunned by any Christians. What is the Christian view towards innovations in the religion?

 

[AbuAbdallah]

We believe that there is one God of three person. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God. But ONE God.

So when you pray, who do you pray to, either or?

 

[vpb]

abuabdullah,

or maybe shirk

 

[AbuAbdallah]

How does it works? Mystery. He is God in the end...

I'll admit, there are some things in Islam, that we as Muslims will say is a mystery and only God knows. But to say that the trinity is a mystery is troubling. Why? Because the basis of Christianity is the trinity! Without the trinity, there is no Christianity. This is your core base, your Aqeedah (creed), if that is a mystery, then that is something to be concerned about.

 

[AbuAbdallah]

abuabdullah,

or maybe shirk

Must be...

 

[Keltoi]

I'll admit, there are some things in Islam, that we as Muslims will say is a mystery and only God knows. But to say that the trinity is a mystery is troubling. Why? Because the basis of Christianity is the trinity! Without the trinity, there is no Christianity. This is your core base, your Aqeedah (creed), if that is a mystery, then that is something to be concerned about.

The word "Trinity" is a word used to describe God in the various ways in which He manifests Himself. This is a human concept meant to make sense of the complexity of Christ's relationship to God and the way in which the Holy Spirit works. The basis of Christianity is the Word of Jesus Christ, therefor the Word of God. God reveals Himself in different ways, so as Christians we aren't talking about three separate Entities, but one Entity that reveals Himself in three ways. As God Himself, the Person of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. An egg is one object, but has three components...the yoke, the white, and the shell. While all analogies are imperfect, that is a good way to think about it. The rest is a mystery, because humans cannot understand the "how" or "why" of God Almighty, He just is and does.

 

[NoName55]

............An egg is one object, but has three components...the yoke, the white, and the shell. ...........

I've seen few eggs with two yolks, that would make 4, probably that could be good for catholics, since I've seen them worshipping Mary, mother of Christ. Trinity +1

peace!

edit
but what if egg had gone off and was rotten?

edit2: another thing/problem: shell is no good on its own for it is not an egg

 

[Keltoi]

I've seen few eggs with two yolks, that would make 4, probably that could be good for catholics, since I've seen them worshipping Mary, mother of Christ. Trinity +1

peace!

but what if egg had gone off and was rotten?

:rollseyes As I said, the analogy is imperfect, but think about it as a concept, not the literal egg.

 

[NoName55]

ok, thanks, so there is nothing in the universe that He can be compared with!

 

[Keltoi]

ok, thanks, so there is nothing in the universe that He can be compared with!

I wasn't comparing God to an egg, I was comparing a concept to an egg.

 

[NoName55]

I don't understand the exact difference between G-d and concept of G-d

Peace

 

[Eesa Abdullah]

some questions to christians,

1. What criteria do you use (in christianity) to define if a message is a true message from God ?

In the book of Deuteronomy...I will post the verse insh'Allaah ta'aala. The Torah tells the people how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one.

2.and also if you say that Jesus was crucified to pay with his blood the sins of the people, then what happened to the people that died before Jesus came? Do they go to hell or heaven?

Now, I have spoken with some Christians and they explained it to me that Eesa (as) descended into hell for those three days to save those who came before....I am sure our Christian brothers and sisters can elaborate...

3. and also did the prophets that are mentioned in Bible teach trinity? (i'm refering to the prophets before Jesus was born).

This is controversial, because Christian missionaries can point to different verses in the Torah and misconstrue it to have a trinity connotation. i.e. the echad, the saying "I AM" reiterated in the NT, and numerous other verses.

 

[Grace Seeker]

weren't there 1400 gospels at the time of Constantine and didn't they choose 4 of them as the most accurate?

NO. Not even close. I don't mean to laugh, but where do these stories come from?


Here are some links that may help to answer your question more fully:

Where Did The Bible Come From? answered by the United Methodist Church. This will take you through many links to study the question in some depth and tries to put the process into context with contemporary analogies.

Where Did The Bible Come From, and Can We Trust It? answered by a Baptist pastor. This is a one-page synopsis.


Where Did The Bible Come From? as answered by the Eastern Orthodox Church This is an lengthy essay nicely divided into units.


There is a false idea circulating that there were councils called to sort through a bunch of writings and accept some but dismiss others because they did or did not conform to some political agenda. Nothing could be further from the truth. At Nicea, the New Testament canon had been pretty well established for over a century. The church historian Eusebius lists the books as authentic in his Church History volume III, chapters 3 to 25, long before the time of Constantine.

History shows that the early church had a fairly consistent method of recognizing what writings were authoritative and they would then copy and distribute them.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'm more confused now, are we now saying That Christ, Definitely, is not G-d but clearly someone who obeys and serves The Creator

No, we are not saying that Christ is not God. If you look at a triangle it has three sides. If we label one side Father, one side Son, and one side Holy Spirit we have three sides, each of which is completely God, But God is still the triangle not just one side. We may only be looking at one side, but the rest of the triangle is still there. So, Jesus (or the Son) is God. But to say that God is just the son would be false. To say that God is just the Father would be false, just like it would be false to say that the triangle was just the Father side of it. Yet the father side of the triangle is indeed part of the triangle, just as the Father is God. Now, of course this is an analogy (like the egg was and analogy) and being an analogy is not a perfect representation of God. At best it illustrates one aspect of the nature of God, not the totality of God, not even the totality of this concept called the Trinity. Perhaps with a 100 different analogies we would begin to come close, but each would have a flaw in them because there is no perfect analogy to explain God.

ok, thanks, so there is nothing in the universe that He can be compared with!

Yea!!! You got it. There really is nothing in the universe that God can be compared with. Because there is just one and only one God. So, what could compare with him. All analogies fail by virture of using something from the created world to try to explain the creator. That is why in the end it is still a mystery. It is a mystery as to how one being can exist in three persons. But it is not a mystery that God does exist this way, for we (speaking for Christians) have experienced God manifesting himself to us in the person of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. And yet he declares himself to be one.

Here are some places we can see that:

Jesus is speaking: "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)
The prophet Isaiah hears God speaking: "Then I heard the voice of the Lord [note the article is singular] saying, 'Whom shall I [note the pronoun is singular] send? And who will go for us [note the pronoun is plural]?' " (Isaiah 6:8)
God is speaking: "But about the Son he [God] says,
'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom'." (Hebrews 1:8) Here we have God speaking about the Son, and God calls the Son God.

So, if God is going to say these things, I am certainly not going to call God a liar just because I can't explain how it is that it works the way that God says it does work.

 

[Eesa Abdullah]

bismillah

interesting... I am in a rush and I will post later insh'Allaah.

 

[Eesa Abdullah]

bismillah

Greetings,

I would definitely like to delve into the Trinity concept, but before that lets touch upon the "Original Sin" concept since this is where Islaam and Christianity's path seperates....

Original Sin (Christianity's concept)

Quoting Paul,

Rom. 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

Rom. 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"

1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Through the eyes of our Christian brethren, we are doomed to hellfire because we will die in our sins without faith in 'Isa (alayhi sallam)... As we are told in the NT: "whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" (Rom.14:23)

My brother's and sister's in Islaam, according to Christian teachings, the mortal sin committed by our first parents in the Garden of Eden had drastic consequences for the humanity.

Most importantly, Christendom claims that these devastating effects extend far beyond the curses of painful childbirth and strenuous farming conditions outlined in the third chapter of Genesis.

There are more verses to present in the claim of original sin, but I will present verses now from the Jewish Bible.

Remember in Genesis why Cain killed his brother Abel? However, in the Bible God tells Cain in Genesis 4:6-7:

"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If, though, you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you shall master over it." What does that mean "you shall master over it"?

Ibrahim (alayhi sallam), remained loyal to God's commandments, take a look at the following verse:

"I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands, and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." (Genesis 26:4-5)

THERE IS NO ORIGINAL SIN ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH BIBLE

Deuteronomy 24:16 it specifically says this:

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

In Exodus 32:30-35 Musa (alayhi sallam) wants to atone for the sins of his nation, but God will not allow it:

"And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Eternal; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the Eternal, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Eternal said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the Eternal plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made." [Exodus 32:30-35]

I will not place every verse, but the idea is in the Jewish scriptures.

The entire 18th chapter of the book of Ezekiel is about this idea, that no one can die for someone else's sin. Original sin is foreign to the Jewish Bible.


ISLAM'S STANCE ON ORIGINAL SIN


"Say: "Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards Allah. He will tell you the truth of the things wherein ye disputed." (6:164)

"Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another;
That man can have nothing but what he strives for;
That (the fruit of) his striving will soon come in sight:
Then will he be rewarded with a reward complete;
That to thy Lord is the final Goal;"

(53:38:42)

"Then guard yourselves against a-Day when one soul shall not avail another, nor shall compensation be accepted from her nor shall intercession profit her nor shall anyone be helped (from outside)."
(2:123)

As Muslims in Islaam, we know that we can not enter Jannah (paradise) with our own deeds. We indeed know that we have to keep Allaah (swt) commandments and believe in HIM. No one shall enter the garden except by the mercy of Allaah (swt).

For Muhammad (salaallaahu alayhi wa sallam) says: The prophet (S.A.W.) said: "None of you will enter Paradise with his deeds", They said: "Not even you, oh messenger of Allah?!", He said: "Not even me unless Allah bestows His mercy upon me."

It is a common attack on Islaam that in Islaam you can gain your way into Paradise. How incorrect is that notion!?

Allaah ta'alaa Himself says in Qur'aan: "If Allaah were to punish men according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily God has in His sight all His Servants." (The Noble Quran, 35:45)

The above verse proves that deeds alone are not sufficient enough to gain entrance into the Garden.

Allaah ta'alaa hears our prayers and we are not to rely on any mediator:

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way." (The Noble Quran, 2:186)


Allaah ta'aala is ever ready to bestow His forgiveness:

Narrated Anas: "The Prophet said, 'My Lord says, 'If My slave comes nearer to me for a span, I go nearer to him for a cubit; and if he comes nearer to Me for a cubit, I go nearer to him for the span of outstretched arms; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, ONENESS, UNIQUENESS OF ALLAH (TAWHEED), Volume 9, Book 93, Number 627)"

There are many other verses, but these will suffice for now.

WaAllaahu alam