Meteorite crashed in russia - 500 injured

[Independent]

You quote AIDS as an example that affects African communities than Western ones. Maybe you're not aware but there is a theory which has some validity that AIDS in Africa was spread via western medical teams passing it on to people in the disguise of vaccinations, in order to wipe out people in the region.

I have heard the theory and it's malicious nonsense. People are always inventing nasty rumours about vaccinations, instead of celebrating the eradication of horrible diseases like smallpox. Hopefully we will be able to eliminate polio soon as well.

However, the more general point is that poor communities are more vulnerable to most diseases - such as cholera which is the result of inadequate fresh water supplies.

The reason we believe that natural disasters are a form of divine punishment is because in The Bible and Qur'an there is reference to these phenomena having a divine connection.

When i was a Christian I read this metaphorically, but I understand that Muslims don't.

If someone really wanted to leave the work of a Divine Creator out of the equation, they could logically explain everything but there will come a point where some thing cannot be logically explained or make sense unless the action of a Divine Creator is taken into consideration

There's a lot about this in the Atheism Disproved in one paragraph thread, or whatever it's called.

 

[ardianto]

The reason we believe that natural disasters are a form of divine punishment is because in The Bible and Qur'an there is reference to these phenomena having a divine connection.

Do you mean earthquakes and tsunamis that often happened in Indonesia are punishment for Indonesian people?

 

[Mustafa2012]

I have heard the theory and it's malicious nonsense. People are always inventing nasty rumours about vaccinations, instead of celebrating the eradication of horrible diseases like smallpox. Hopefully we will be able to eliminate polio soon as well.

However, the more general point is that poor communities are more vulnerable to most diseases - such as cholera which is the result of inadequate fresh water supplies.


When i was a Christian I read this metaphorically, but I understand that Muslims don't.


There's a lot about this in the Atheism Disproved in one paragraph thread, or whatever it's called.

I wouldn't put it past some people to think of and even carry out a plan like that. By the way I didn't read it off some conspiracy theory website. It was from a book written by a westerner.

I agree that sometimes poor communities are more vulnerable. Sometimes natural disasters are not always punishments. We don't always know the reasons behind the actions of the Divine Creator.

Some verses in religious scripture are metaphoric and some are literal.

There was one explanation given by some scholar as to why atheists choose to reject the idea of a Creator.

He said that by rejecting a Creator, they psychologically let them themselves off the hook. Then they don't have to be accountable for their actions. It eases their conscience and they feel they can do as they wish without anyone to answer for.

What do you think of this explanation?

 

[Mustafa2012]

Do you mean earthquakes and tsunamis that often happened in Indonesia are punishment for Indonesian people?

Allaah knows best why he does things.

Sometimes He might just decide to cause an earthquake as a sign of His Power and a warning to others.

However in the Bible and Qur'an natural disasters are spoken about a lot. The people of the past were destroyed for their disbelief and transgression with different kinds of natural disasters.

Even Christian Leaders blamed the recent tornados in the U.S. on the sins of their people.

 

[Tyrion]

Allaah knows best why he does things.

Exactly, so leave it that way. Don't try and speak for god by saying such and such disaster was obviously a punishment for that nation. It's not right.

Even Christian Leaders blamed the recent tornados in the U.S. on the sins of their people.

A lot of Christians would see those "leaders" the same way most Muslims see the random crazy cleric as a Muslim leader. Then again, maybe I shouldn't say that here since we've had members proclaim some kind of admiration for known extremists before...

 

[Independent]

There was one explanation given by some scholar as to why atheists choose to reject the idea of a Creator.

He said that by rejecting a Creator, they psychologically let them themselves off the hook. Then they don't have to be accountable for their actions. It eases their conscience and they feel they can do as they wish without anyone to answer for.

What do you think of this explanation?

This is daft. He has zero insight into atheist/agnostic thinking and can't be bothered to try.

It's not some kind of calculation just to get yourself off the hook. You either believe or you don't. I can't help myself from not believing in any organised religion I've been exposed to. If I live in a stricter society, I'd probably lie and say I was a believer. I'll bet there are any number of people in Muslim countries who do exactly that, for the sake of an easier life. I don't blame them.

From what I have seen I am not convinced that religious followers are any better morally than agnostics or atheists. They are certainly differently moral - there are things which are forbidden by Islam which are ok in Christianity, and things that are disapproved of by Christianity which are ok by secular people.

But much of the basic stuff is the same the world over. No killing, no stealing etc.

I don't think that 'no religion' leads automatically to 'uncontrolled self interest' and I think the evidence backs me. (You could also read 'The Roads to Freedom' by Jean Paul Sartre, which portrays a character for whom atheism seems to lead to even greater moral angst and pressure. This character has no God to tell him what to do. Instead of freeing him to do what he wants he finds making moral judgements even harder, because he has to work it out each time for himself.)

I agree that sometimes poor communities are more vulnerable. Sometimes natural disasters are not always punishments. We don't always know the reasons behind the actions of the Divine Creator.

In almost every area, poor countries suffer the most from natural disasters and disease. I know theologians have come up with arguments to explain that, but I don't agree.

One day there will be a big earthquake in San Francisco. Quite possibly it will be very soon. Is that divine judgement, or is it because the city sits on the San Andreas fault? Again, there is a famous book by another Frenchman, Voltaire, called 'Candide' which talks about the catastrophic 1755 Lisbon earthquake and satirises this kind of divine fatalism.

 

[Mustafa2012]

Exactly, so leave it that way. Don't try and speak for god by saying such and such disaster was obviously a punishment for that nation. It's not right.

A lot of Christians would see those "leaders" the same way most Muslims see the random crazy cleric as a Muslim leader. Then again, maybe I shouldn't say that here since we've had members proclaim some kind of admiration for known extremists before...

Firstly, I did not say that the meteorite was obviously a punishment for any nation. Please go back and read my first post on this thread.

I think you should read carefully before replying to people's posts.

Natural disasters have been mentioned in many places in The Qur'an as a type of punishment for former nations for their transgression and disbelief. Those are not my words. They are the words of Allaah :swt1:. If something has been mentioned in The Qur'an then part of the Muslim's belief is to accept it without questioning it.

If today, we see a country committing oppression and supporting other countries in committing oppression and then a natural disaster hits them, we could be excused for assuming that the natural disaster is a type of Divine Punishment for the oppression they are causing other people. This is based on what we've learnt in The Qur'aan.

If however there are other nations that are not known to commit oppression but are struck with a natural disaster, then it would not be fair to assume they are being punished. If there is no known explanation, then we cannot speculate. Nowhere did I say that natural disasters that affect poor people are Divine punishments.

As for what the Christian leaders say, it doesn't matter what most people think of them. If their sayings are in line with what we believe then we do not consider them to be random crazy clerics.

 

[Mustafa2012]

This is daft. He has zero insight into atheist/agnostic thinking and can't be bothered to try.

It's not some kind of calculation just to get yourself off the hook. You either believe or you don't. I can't help myself from not believing in any organised religion I've been exposed to. If I live in a stricter society, I'd probably lie and say I was a believer. I'll bet there are any number of people in Muslim countries who do exactly that, for the sake of an easier life. I don't blame them.

From what I have seen I am not convinced that religious followers are any better morally than agnostics or atheists. They are certainly differently moral - there are things which are forbidden by Islam which are ok in Christianity, and things that are disapproved of by Christianity which are ok by secular people.

But much of the basic stuff is the same the world over. No killing, no stealing etc.

I don't think that 'no religion' leads automatically to 'uncontrolled self interest' and I think the evidence backs me. (You could also read 'The Roads to Freedom' by Jean Paul Sartre, which portrays a character for whom atheism seems to lead to even greater moral angst and pressure. This character has no God to tell him what to do. Instead of freeing him to do what he wants he finds making moral judgements even harder, because he has to work it out each time for himself.)


In almost every area, poor countries suffer the most from natural disasters and disease. I know theologians have come up with arguments to explain that, but I don't agree.

One day there will be a big earthquake in San Francisco. Quite possibly it will be very soon. Is that divine judgement, or is it because the city sits on the San Andreas fault? Again, there is a famous book by another Frenchman, Voltaire, called 'Candide' which talks about the catastrophic 1755 Lisbon earthquake and satirises this kind of divine fatalism.

There probably are some people who outwardly act as Muslims but inwardly believe something else. They are referred to as hypocrites. Maybe they do that to avoid the pressure of society more than anything. But they are the minority.

From what I have seen I am not convinced that religious followers are any better morally than agnostics or atheists.

I disagree here. You might think I'm biased here but I've been around people of many different backgrounds and faiths and for me Muslims stand out morally. They are not perfect by any means but the difference with them is that they have a sense of awareness of God's laws and try to correct themselves regularly. This is more amongst the practising community. It is less among non practising Muslims but nevertheless even many of this category still have great respect for religion even if they do not lead a religious life.

Yes, most religions have the same themes but when it comes to the details they differ greatly.

Like for e.g. The Concept of The Creator, who He is, His Attributes. There is a big difference on this topic among different religions. I feel the Muslim belief offers the clearest picture as to who The Creator is and what the boundaries are in discussing His essence.

Also re: The Afterlife. There is a big difference in this area. In the Muslim belief, there is complete justice offered in The Next Life. Whatever good you did in this life, will be multiplied 10-600 times. Any evil will be recompensed just 1 time. The Mercy of Allaah will be 99 times greater on Judgement Day than all of the mercy shown in this lifetime etc.

Then there's Paradise and The Hellfire - Paradise is a very strong motivator to do good. The promise of eternal peace, happiness and relaxation. It is enough as a motivator to make change people for the better. Similarly The Hellfire is strong deterrent for those who commit evil and reject the signs of Allaah in this lifetime. Just the thought of it, is enough to prevent people from living a life of sin.

Then there's dealings with people - What rights people have against each other. Islam has a whole system for this. No other religion offers a complete system. Yes I'll admit, Muslims are human and are far from the ideal picture but at least there's a systematic framework to follow. No other religion offers such a detailed system.

These are just a few points.

I cannot explain why natural disasters affect poor people. In such cases we are required to just accept it as being The Divine Will at work. He does whatever He wills without having to give us an explanation for everything.

 

[Independent]

I cannot explain why natural disasters affect poor people. In such cases we are required to just accept it as being The Divine Will at work. He does whatever He wills without having to give us an explanation for everything.

I understand why you say this and I respect your point of view. However, for me, this is not consistent with the much repeated claim that Islam is a 'rational' religion - there are limits to it - because this is not capable of being rationalised. (You can make the same objection to Christianity, I'm not singling out Islam here.)

At the core of Islam, as with Christianity, is a leap of faith - not rationality - which permits you to stop asking dumb questions like mine.

 

[Mustafa2012]

I understand why you say this and I respect your point of view. However, for me, this is not consistent with the much repeated claim that Islam is a 'rational' religion - there are limits to it - because this is not capable of being rationalised. (You can make the same objection to Christianity, I'm not singling out Islam here.)

At the core of Islam, as with Christianity, is a leap of faith - not rationality - which permits you to stop asking dumb questions like mine.

It is still a very rational religion, more than any other I know of.

Whatever cannot be explained by normal secular rational thinking usually has an explanation in Islam from a religious, spiritual point of view.

Just because Islam doesn't offer an answer for every single thing in life, that doesn't mean it is not rational. There is still rationality behind most of what we are taught in Islam.

But there will always be some things that mankind will not know and there is some wisdom behind it. There are some things The Creator wanted to keep to Himself like for e.g. the secret of life and many other things.

Chances are if we knew everything there is to know, we would probably misuse that knowledge and use it to cause even more problems than there already are.

However yes, there are some areas which we do not have answers for. In these cases we are required to accept it and believe that there is some divine wisdom behind it which we cannot understand.

I also agree that at the core of Islam and Christianity is a leap of faith however it can be based on rationality. It can be based on research and comparison of what each has to offer.

Then of course the person has to make a leap of faith or a decision but again the decision is not always made on blind faith.

Many people choose a particular religion after having studied some of the most popular religions and weighing the pros and cons of each one.

Islam offers people a way to make sense of this life and what happens after we die. It offers answers to questions that secular systems cannot offer.

As one companion of The Prophet Rab'i bin Amir said when he was sent to a Persian leader,

"Allah (the Almighty) has sent us so that we may liberate fellow human beings from subservience to other fellow human beings and bring them to obedience to the One True God. We are here to take them from the narrowness of the world to it's spaciousness. Our aim is to free them of the persecution perpetrated against them by other religions. We want to bless them with the justice and equity of Islam."