Mixed views on Saudi interfaith forum

[The_Prince]

You do realize the Bible is broken into 2 parts don't you?

which part where you referring to? Old or New? because neither fall under the criteria you gave my friend, the OT nor the NT were written by men under the dictation of God.

 

[The_Prince]

Even though I don't believe in it - it is easy to defend faith - in that - it is faith in the end. Be it christanity, hinduism, Judaism - everything can be made intellectually correct - as it is easy to do with faith. Hence, someone will always be able to refute you if you attack their religion.

So, stick to promoting yours, directly. Also, that eir of arrogance, it doesn't do anyone favours.

what arrogance? its a fact, and i said me and OTHER apologists, do you think you can debate me or any other apologist who does this for a living? doing hours and hours of research, hundreds of articles, public debates etc? thats not arrogance, thats just a mere fact. There are some qualified and some not qualified, you leave the matters to the qualified, even the Quran teaches that.

Secondly, you show your not qualified, you keep saying faith, well professionals can actually take it a step further and prove it, not just by faith my friend, and thats why i am an apologist LIKE OTHERS notice i say other people too not just me! and your not, your average bob and zaki will make these faith arguments, but when it comes to the real deal apologists will lay their facts on the table, and not just go on faith.

You can have faith that Jesus died, rose on three days etc, but we have real facts and proofs that these beliefs were already on paper word for word by other pagan religions.

You can have faith that your Bible is from God, but we have facts that say the Gospel of John is an interpretive book, not an actual historical account.

You can say Islam is false, but we have scientific evidences in the Quran at the time of the prophet which werent known to man, nor observable. we have prophecies made by him happening today, SPECIFIC PROPHECIES not vague ones like saying there will be big wars. all of this disproves the false claims because you will never be able to discount these established FACTS.

so no its not faith only.

 

[The_Prince]

Also, that eir of arrogance, it doesn't do anyone favours.

i will tell you what is really arrogant, and this isnt referring to you, just general. arrogant is someone like Joe who wants to and thinks he can debate someone else named Idris who has studied for years in the field of inter-faith apologetics, hours upon hours a day, and has written hundreds upon hundreds of articles on websites, and has held several debates as well. put in mind that Joe hasnt even done half of this, and doesnt have the will to do most of this, yet thinks hes qualified to debate Idris, and says he can do this and that if he debates Idris. who is the arrogant one here? Idris who points out that hes opponent isnt really qualified to debate or Joe who hasnt given his time to this studies and now thinks he can do it out of no where?

So no i am not arrogant.

 

[Izyan]

if thats true then you still lose the debate as your an atheist, so how does that help your case? your job is to disprove prophecies all together, whether it be Bible or Quran. as far as im concerned the only true prophecies in the Bible regard the Messiah, nothing else, and that supports a Muslims view.

as for Moses splitting the sea, well my book contains supernatural prophecies and can be relied upon and is trustworthy, so there is no reason to doubt the story ever took place. you have to dry and disprove its reliability, and disprove the supernatural to disprove this event, which you cant as the prophecies are a supernatural thing that happens.

Who said I was Atheist?

 

[Izyan]

what arrogance? its a fact, and i said me and OTHER apologists, do you think you can debate me or any other apologist who does this for a living? doing hours and hours of research, hundreds of articles, public debates etc? thats not arrogance, thats just a mere fact. There are some qualified and some not qualified, you leave the matters to the qualified, even the Quran teaches that.

Secondly, you show your not qualified, you keep saying faith, well professionals can actually take it a step further and prove it, not just by faith my friend, and thats why i am an apologist LIKE OTHERS notice i say other people too not just me! and your not, your average bob and zaki will make these faith arguments, but when it comes to the real deal apologists will lay their facts on the table, and not just go on faith.

You can have faith that Jesus died, rose on three days etc, but we have real facts and proofs that these beliefs were already on paper word for word by other pagan religions.

You can have faith that your Bible is from God, but we have facts that say the Gospel of John is an interpretive book, not an actual historical account.

You can say Islam is false, but we have scientific evidences in the Quran at the time of the prophet which werent known to man, nor observable. we have prophecies made by him happening today, SPECIFIC PROPHECIES not vague ones like saying there will be big wars. all of this disproves the false claims because you will never be able to discount these established FACTS.

so no its not faith only.

Nostrodamus made many specific prophecies that came true also and he didn't belong to any religion. Where are your facts that the Quran is the truth against all other?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

what arrogance? its a fact, and i said me and OTHER apologists, do you think you can debate me or any other apologist who does this for a living? doing hours and hours of research, hundreds of articles, public debates etc? thats not arrogance, thats just a mere fact. There are some qualified and some not qualified, you leave the matters to the qualified, even the Quran teaches that.

I think what was being implied was that you keep assuming you're right, when really you're defending a position that is unfalsifiable. You might want to look into that concept - it'd save you a lot of huffing and puffing.

It would also relieve you of the strange idea that persists among many Muslims that their religion can be proven. If any religion genuinely could be proven, everyone on Earth would believe it. Is that the case? Not at present.

Far from being some kind of expert, you haven't even scratched the surface of this debate.



Incidentally, since we may as well at least pretend to discuss the topic of the thread:

Who thinks the Saudi interfaith forum will reach a level of debate any higher than the one in this thread?

Peace

 

[S_87]

The Bible's prophecies and miracles have come to past too so how does the Quran hold any more presedence over it? The Bible pre-dates Islam.

The true bible and the Quran are indeed from the same source- God.

However through the years the Bible has been changed and today you yourself can see that there are many different versions of the Bible. The Quran is the same. Check a Quran anywhere in the world and its one version- one Quran

One of the main problems with the Bible is, like i said, it has been altered so much that it is not the word of God no more. It is the word of man. and man makes mistakes. One of the points of iman is to believe in the bookS of God. That includes the original Bible sent down. We do not disbelieve that the Bible was sent down to Isa peace be upon him, we believe that it has been altered so much, it is no longer the word of God...


It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the injeel (Gospel).

3:3

 

[SixTen]

nvm

 

[SixTen]

i will tell you what is really arrogant, and this isnt referring to you, just general. arrogant is someone like Joe who wants to and thinks he can debate someone else named Idris who has studied for years in the field of inter-faith apologetics, hours upon hours a day, and has written hundreds upon hundreds of articles on websites, and has held several debates as well. put in mind that Joe hasnt even done half of this, and doesnt have the will to do most of this, yet thinks hes qualified to debate Idris, and says he can do this and that if he debates Idris. who is the arrogant one here? Idris who points out that hes opponent isnt really qualified to debate or Joe who hasnt given his time to this studies and now thinks he can do it out of no where?

So no i am not arrogant.

So, you have done, what Ali Sina has done, what Sam shermoun has done, what Robert Spencer has done.

This means, that all of you know, more than all of us? I am pretty sure you wouldn't be happy to act like Ali Sina etc are very qualified and learned now would you? You did state

do you think you can debate me or any other apologist who does this for a living? doing hours and hours of research, hundreds of articles, public debates etc?

. They will all contest to the same thing as a line of defense. Lets not use that arguement. Beside, answering-christianity, is as bad as answering-islam in my books - very little is factual on both websites equally.

Your website is like exameinthetruth.com, its just another propaganda/researched website - it doesn't have intellectual or honest values.

 

[Izyan]

The true bible and the Quran are indeed from the same source- God.

However through the years the Bible has been changed and today you yourself can see that there are many different versions of the Bible. The Quran is the same. Check a Quran anywhere in the world and its one version- one Quran

One of the main problems with the Bible is, like i said, it has been altered so much that it is not the word of God no more. It is the word of man. and man makes mistakes. One of the points of iman is to believe in the bookS of God. That includes the original Bible sent down. We do not disbelieve that the Bible was sent down to Isa peace be upon him, we believe that it has been altered so much, it is no longer the word of God...


It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the injeel (Gospel).

3:3

I hate to break this to you but the Quran has been changed:

According to Shia and some Sunni scholars, Ali compiled a complete version of the Qur’an mus'haf immediately after death of Muhammad. The order of this mus'haf differed from that gathered later during Uthman's era. Despite this, Ali made no objection or resistance against standardized mus'haf, but kept his own book.

After seventy reciters were killed in the Battle of Yamama, the caliph Abu Bakr decided to collect the different chapters and verses into one volume. Thus, a group of reciters, including Zayd ibn Thabit, collected the chapters and verses and produced several hand-written copies of the complete book.


11th Century North African Qur’an in the British MuseumIn about 650, as Islam expanded beyond the Arabian peninsula into Persia, the Levant and North Africa, the third caliph Uthman ibn Affan ordered the preparation of an official, standardized version, in order to preserve the sanctity of the text (and perhaps to keep the Rashidun Empire united, see Uthman Qur'an). Five of the reciters from amongst the companions produced a unique text from the first volume which had been prepared on the orders of Abu Bakr and which was kept with Hafsa bint Umar. The other copies already in the hands of Muslims in other areas were collected and sent to Medina where, on orders of the Caliph, they were destroyed by burning or boiling. This remains the authoritative text of the Qur’an to this day.

 

[aamirsaab]

I hate to break this to you but the Quran has been changed:

2 things:
* Link sil vous plait.
* Shias aint mainstream muzzies.



To this particular topic; I like the idea of an interfaith forum. I do hope it will be a positive experience for all involved. But I can't help but think cynically at moments like these (heck, ALL moments!): will it actually work on a grand scale?
I sincerely hope it does (and it'd be really really awesome) but I just don't know if it will be enough. Us muzzies got a bad rep - it's gonna take a lot more than an interfaith forum to clean that black mark next to our names.

 

[The_Prince]

Nostrodamus made many specific prophecies that came true also and he didn't belong to any religion. Where are your facts that the Quran is the truth against all other?

can you show me every single prophecy he made? when you can then we can talk.

 

[The_Prince]

So, you have done, what Ali Sina has done, what Sam shermoun has done, what Robert Spencer has done.

This means, that all of you know, more than all of us? I am pretty sure you wouldn't be happy to act like Ali Sina etc are very qualified and learned now would you? You did state . They will all contest to the same thing as a line of defense. Lets not use that arguement. Beside, answering-christianity, is as bad as answering-islam in my books - very little is factual on both websites equally.

Your website is like exameinthetruth.com, its just another propaganda/researched website - it doesn't have intellectual or honest values.

Ali Sina is a nobody. as for Shamoun yes the man knows his info and thats why he has humiliated countless of Muslims who arent qualified to debate, and he will continue to do so.

Robert Spencer i havent seen him debate but yes he is qualified.

as for answering-Christianity.com i dont write on that site anymore, those articles of mine are old and most have been updated and edited on my own.

as for honest values, honest values to you is being a slave and not speaking against other false religions, if you want that thats fine, but thats not honest values but suck up slave no self respecting values which you can keep to yourself, but dont give it to all of us.

 

[S_87]

I hate to break this to you but the Quran has been changed:

compilation of Quran.

briefly- The Prophet peace and blessing be upon him had some sahabahs write down the Quran.
many of the companions still memorised it, but then in the time of the first caliph it was put in a book form.
then skip to third caliph. At this time the muslims were travelling to various lands and there were several dialects. This caused some confusion. As a result, the third caliph got the copy from Hafsa bint Umar radhiallahu anha who was keeping that same version and made more copies of it.

anyone who believe the Quran is not the same Quran and is altered by man has disbelieved in the words of the Quran. What you say is a big contradiction in itself because shias have the same Quran as sunnis and a lot of them believe uthman,Abubakr and Hafsa radhiallahu anhum were hypocrites, so they follow something they supposedly changed?

 

[SixTen]

Ali Sina is a nobody. as for Shamoun yes the man knows his info and thats why he has humiliated countless of Muslims who arent qualified to debate, and he will continue to do so.

Robert Spencer i havent seen him debate but yes he is qualified.

as for answering-Christianity.com i dont write on that site anymore, those articles of mine are old and most have been updated and edited on my own.

as for honest values, honest values to you is being a slave and not speaking against other false religions, if you want that thats fine, but thats not honest values but suck up slave no self respecting values which you can keep to yourself, but dont give it to all of us.

I am up for debating religions - but the way it is done today - it is usually negative. I mean, I still see the "Hey how can 3 = 1" and those "He married a 6 year old" stuff, I mean come on, whats constructive about that? Hence I stay, just promote yours - or just stick to refuting claims of others (such as islamic-awareness.org as an example). I hope you agree that, putting on a forum, "Look, the bible is pornographic", is only going to give thrills to muslims, while christians would just be disgraced - just as muslims would when christians state the thousands of things they do. I saw one of your debates (on youtube, well some minutes of it), and I can say, I was happy to see that you handled it in good manner - you stuck to refuting false claims. I was expecting something like that of Nadir Ahmed, because of how you post on LI. Are you sure you are the same person !

As for you Izyan, you are a christian I believe? Alot of christian work has been done to somewhat, to prove that the Qur'an has been changed, personally I have seen them all refuted - so if you want to bring any of those evidences up - please do so.

 

[The_Prince]

I am up for debating religions - but the way it is done today - it is usually negative. I mean, I still see the "Hey how can 3 = 1" and those "He married a 6 year old" stuff, I mean come on, whats constructive about that? Hence I stay, just promote yours - or just stick to refuting claims of others (such as islamic-awareness.org as an example). I hope you agree that, putting on a forum, "Look, the bible is pornographic", is only going to give thrills to muslims, while christians would just be disgraced - just as muslims would when christians state the thousands of things they do. I saw one of your debates (on youtube, well some minutes of it), and I can say, I was happy to see that you handled it in good manner - you stuck to refuting false claims. I was expecting something like that of Nadir Ahmed, because of how you post on LI. Are you sure you are the same person !

As for you Izyan, you are a christian I believe? Alot of christian work has been done to somewhat, to prove that the Qur'an has been changed, personally I have seen them all refuted - so if you want to bring any of those evidences up - please do so.

i agree with you, thats why i left AC.com.....sometimes i might go offtrack like on a forum, but this is why this is a forum, we all do it, sometimes were right in the heat of the moment. but im talking real debates like the one you watched, in a real format debate and articles i wont do these cheap tactics

 

[The_Prince]

infact if you read AC.com, you will see that there are many sub-sections, one section is called adulerated material in the Bible, it used to be called Pornography and i was the one who made the site owner change it.

 

[Uthman]

edit

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I hate to break this to you but the Quran has been changed:

it says the order was changed, i dont know if this is authentic but even if it is it doesnt change the Quran.

for example surah Alaq was the first surah revealed to our prophet (sallallahi alaihi wasallaam) however it is around the 90th surah in the Quran.

Im sure the sahabi's have compiled the Quran as it would have been desired by the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam.

But in no way does this change the recitation of the Quran at all. It is recited today as it was recited 1400 years ago.



Hate to break it to ya pal