Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

[KAding]

To be honest, I can't see why you'd feel that way. As you recognise later in that same post, religious adherence is memetic, not genetic. Birth rates are therefore fallacious to be either disappointed or thrilled about.

True, we can make all kinds of nuances, but I would be fooling myself if I thought a "10 times faster" rise in Muslims wouldn't actually mean more practicing politically-aware Muslims as well. We'll simply have more people walking around who are debating whether being friends with non-Muslims is halal, or whether voting isn't kufr, or who believe their own government is an enemy of Islam, or who believe making cartoons about Muhammed should be outlawed. They will have many issues with the current liberal, atheist 'hedonistic' way of life in Western European countries, one which I value strongly.

Note, I of course don't blame some Muslims for believing what they believe, but I think social strife will become more likely because of this. I don't want to play a blame game, 'Islamophobia' and racism among non-Muslims is a real issue as well and as much to blame as well.

I just want two things:
1. Keep our liberal ideals intact
2. Prevent social strife

 

[Whatsthepoint]

how when the Muslims population of europe NOT immigrants are producing the children. reducing immigertaion does nothing whats so ever. Maybe the non muslims need to produce more children and give up there hednostic lifestyle and take some sacrifices - which is what life has always been about - if people are not doing it - then why compalin? is there own fault.

An end to immigration will definitely tackle the growth to some extent as well as ensure that in 50 years Muslims will be better integrated, every Muslim will be british born, raised in british schools, more adapted to the british society than new immigrants.
I said before the government could introduce new taxation that would encourage every couple having 2 children, making it the best option financially speaking. That way Europans will have more kids, and the somali woman less.

 

[Zafran]

An end to immigration will definitely tackle the growth to some extent as well as ensure that in 50 years Muslims will be better integrated, every Muslim will be british born, raised in british schools, more adapted to the british society than new immigrants.

I said before the government could introduce new taxation that would encourage every couple having 2 children, making it the best option financially speaking. That way Europans will have more kids, and the somali woman less.

if you havent actually heard the next generation muslims are more religious(the British born) - you do know that - furthermore why the tax? to cover up the failure.

The end to immigertaion isnt actually the problem - its the brith rates realy - right now.

 

[aadil77]

well why are you not producing that many children??? are you not to blame for that??? are you willing make sacrifices like the somlia mother has?

.

lol, their birth rates are kept high by their 'liberal' girls going out and getting pregnant every other day by random chavs off the council estate. But then also birth rates are lowered because they all want to be single so they can fornicate all they like until they finally feel its time to settle down and have some kids, then when the marriage doesn't last 6 months the whole process starts all over again. yep these are the values they want to stick to

 

[Zafran]

lol, their birth rates are kept high by their 'liberal' girls going out and getting pregnant every other day by random chavs off the council estate. But then also birth rates are lowered because they all want to be single so they can fornicate all they like until they finally feel its time to settle down and have some kids, then when the marriage doesn't last 6 months the whole process starts all over again. yep these are the values they want to stick to

Thats the real problem - they have a choice - sacrfice or hedonism - its realy a failure on there part - but like most people they have to balme other people for there own failures.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

if you havent actually heard the next generation muslims are more religious(the British born) - you do know that - furthermore why the tax? to cover up the failure.

The end to immigertaion isnt actually the problem - its the brith rates realy - right now.

Yes I have heard that, but what about the third generation, and the fourth? And IMHO its their way of revolting and seeking identity etc. Of course additional discrimination of Muslims would make them revolt even more.
Yep, to cover up the failure. Or in other words to protect it at least to some extent. Of course any such legislation would be far from the principles of liberal hedonistic democracy, but you said it yourself, sacrifices need to be made.

 

[aadil77]

they have a choice - sacrfice or hedonism - .

The only thing that gets sacrificed is their babies through abortions

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Thats the real problem - they have a choice - sacrfice or hedonism - its realy a failure on there part - but like most people they have to balme other people for there own failures.

That is correct. Immigrants are not the ons to blame. They were invited here mostly as cheap labor, they weren't exactly treated well, and they were poor for the most part and had more children.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

The only thing that gets sacrificed is their babies through abortions

Doyou think Muslims girls don't have abortions? The family pressure on them is even greater, to have an illegitimate child in a Muslim environment must be tough, much easier to go to the clinic.

 

[Zafran]

Yes I have heard that, but what about the third generation, and the fourth? And IMHO its their way of revolting and seeking identity etc. Of course additional discrimination of Muslims would make them revolt even more.
Yep, to cover up the failure. Or in other words to protect it at least to some extent. Of course any such legislation would be far from the principles of liberal hedonistic democracy, but you said it yourself, sacrifices need to be made.

including the third generation - from person experience They are more religious not becasue of "seeking identity" but Becasue Islam is the identity.

correction there is no such thing as "liberal hednostic democracy" only liberal democracy which is a system where everyone chooses there way of life on there individual prefernences

or sacrifcies VS hedonism. - the hedonism isnt working maybe the personal sacrifes have to come into - as said before thats what life has always been about.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

including the third generation - from person experience They are more religious not becasue of "seeking identity" but Becasue Islam is the identity.

correction there is no such thing as "liberal hednostic democracy" only liberal democracy which is a system where everyone chooses there way of life on there individual prefernences

or sacrifcies VS hedonism. - the hedonism isnt working maybe the personal sacrifes have to come into - as said before thats what life has always been about.

You seem to like liberal demcoracy very much.. to what extent? do you suppoer gay marriage, legal protitution etc?
I know there isn't, but everyone is mentioning hedonism so I thought I'd add it.

 

[Zafran]

That is correct. Immigrants are not the ons to blame. They were invited here mostly as cheap labor, they weren't exactly treated well, and they were poor for the most part and had more children.

They also did all the terrible jobs that nobody wanted to do but most important of all they were willing to sacrifice unlike the hednostic poor people. As you said they were also willing to work for low wages. If they went through all that - they have a right or even more to stay in that country.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

They also did all the terrible jobs that nobody wanted to do but most important of all they were willing to sacrifice unlike the hednostic poor people. As you said they were also willing to work for low wages. If they went through all that - they have a right or even more to stay in that country.

Yes they do, I'm not saying they should be expelled. New ones shouldn't come in, thats all. No more family reunions either.

 

[Zafran]

You seem to like liberal demcoracy very much.. to what extent? do you suppoer gay marriage, legal protitution etc?
I know there isn't, but everyone is mentioning hedonism so I thought I'd add it.

Gay marriage and especially "legal prostitution" are not Inherently part of liberal democracy - in a liberal democracy you dont have to support either - its all about individual choices. The problem is make the selfish one then your going to feel drawbacks.

eg - pro homosexuality or legalise prostitution will just reduce the birth rates.

 

[Zafran]

Yes they do, I'm not saying they should be expelled. New ones shouldn't come in, thats all. No more family reunions either.

sorry to tell you but you cant stop the family reunions anyway

Immigeration is needed anyway - to do the jobs nobody wnats to do. You can put the limit on but you'll see the effect on the economy.

I'm off.

 

[aadil77]

Doyou think Muslims girls don't have abortions?

I think asian muslim girls would rather die than let there families find out somethin like that

but you can't even compare their abortion rates to the average english screw-ups off estates

 

[KAding]

again this preety much "hypothetical" right? because the article shows that the birth increase is the real problem from european muslims rather then immigeration.

They are both important. The article just says that immigration, birth rates and conversions matter, it doesn't quantify how important they are exactly?

Like whatsthepoint states, we cannot force people to have more or fewer children. Nor can we control conversions. But we can to a limited extend control immigration.

But you are right, the core issue is that our own values and lifestyles are to an extend to blame for the current state of affairs. Firstly, we have fewer children and secondly, our constitutions forbid policies that protect the majority culture. Virtually every Muslim-majority country puts limits on the building of churches, on public preaching by non-Muslims and on conversions away from Islam. These measures are not allowed here.

That is exactly why there is such pressure on these values from extreme-right parties and movements, because there are voters out there who believe these same illiberal measures need to be implemented here, to protect our culture. From my perspective both these extreme-right groups who want to 'stop Islamization' by illiberal means and Muslims who want 'stop kufr' are two sides on the same coin. Both are a threat to my freedoms, both groups are growing. I am not comfortable with this.

Perhaps you are right, the only way for me to do anything about it is to breed more children! But there are enough people on this planet as is if you ask me .

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Gay marriage and especially "legal prostitution" are not Inherently part of liberal democracy - in a liberal democracy you dont have to support either - its all about individual choices. The problem is make the selfish one then your going to feel drawbacks.

eg - pro homosexuality or legalise prostitution will just reduce the birth rate.

I don't have to inherently support minorities rights either, do I?
I know, but I'm not yet saying we should try to raise it.
We close the door for new Muslims, including imams, expel every imam who can't pass the advanced english certificate test, try to non-agressively secularize the Muslim population, or let the process go by itself, but to do that Britain should stop all foreign affairs that may negatively affect its Muslim community.
The Muslims birth rate should settle down, as it is already doing, more Muslims women are studying, Muslims strice for higher standard which requires more money etc.
Then we bring south Americans, or Buddhists, or Poles. someone who will integrate better.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

sorry to tell you but you cant stop the family reunions anyway

Immigeration is needed anyway - to do the jobs nobody wnats to do. You can put the limit on but you'll see the effect on the economy.

I'm off.

Yes you can, by family renuions I am referring to legal immigrants bringing their families to the UK.
Yes, but let's have the Poles instead!

 

[Muezzin]

True, we can make all kinds of nuances, but I would be fooling myself if I thought a "10 times faster" rise in Muslims wouldn't actually mean more practicing politically-aware Muslims as well.

In practicing Muslims (whatever they are), political-awareness is necessarily a bad thing?

We'll simply have more people walking around who are debating whether being friends with non-Muslims is halal, or whether voting isn't kufr, or who believe their own government is an enemy of Islam, or who believe making cartoons about Muhammed should be outlawed. They will have many issues with the current liberal, atheist 'hedonistic' way of life in Western European countries, one which I value strongly.

Aren't you pro freedom of expression?

Note, I of course don't blame some Muslims for believing what they believe, but I think social strife will become more likely because of this.

I agree to a point. We have to be more optimistic because, as you've said, co-existence is the only option. So, enough of this 'dialogue' stuff as it's generally understood. Dialogue shouldn't be limited to religious scholars conversing on YouTube. Muslims should go out, be kind to their neighbours, Muslim or non-Muslim, help in the community. Things like that, which Islam encourages. Everything else should fall into place, and any racists will even more clearly expose themselves as such and be rightly marginalised by the wider society.

I don't want to play a blame game, 'Islamophobia' and racism among non-Muslims is a real issue as well and as much to blame as well.

I just want two things:
1. Keep our liberal ideals intact
2. Prevent social strife

1. Nobody can make any guarantees in politics.
2. I agree wholeheartedly.

Yep, that's why the government should make 2 children per couple the only financially viable option, by putting additional tax pressure on less or more etc.

If God gives you lemons... move to China.