Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

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maybe, but you don't know about our somali brothers theres new ones being born everyday, I reckon at this rate there'll be more somali muslims in this country than pakistani muslims in a few years.

Well yes, last week I was watching a tv news, where a somali pirate caught by the Brittons or whatever wanted to thank the jail service for the unexpected goods that he has now in jail and he didnt have in his home back in Somalia, for example - a toilet and a running water. So yes, they multiply fast but at what level of progress they are? What is the level of life in rural Pakistan and Morocco, from where many immigrants come to Europe?
And to answer to Whatsthepoint and Kading, You are both with good will but a bit naive Im afraid. Especially the liberal attitude of Kading suprises me, especially that his grandchildren might not see a Dutch in Amsterdam. Whatsthepoint, just like me only observes it from a far distance. Our countries, hidden well in eastern central Europe doesnt have these problems because communism made us too poor to atracct the immigrants for the last 50 years. But I still want to repeat, that liberal democracy will make western Europe a muslim colony, of course I might guess that many Europeans wont care but many (especially the catholic nations) would do many things to avoid it. We even see now signs of the new system in Italy (when democracy is becoming more a decoracy as Whatsthepoint wrongly spelled). Armed soldiers on the streets, navy patrolling the sea. They even already have candidate for a leader, Gianfranco Fini. And history teaches us that Italy gives the new (sometimes bad) ideas to rest of Europe.
 
What do you think? It means what it means, their is no hidden meaning. The government can turn on the people, and most likely will later on in the American existence.

what is this, some stupid american theory? do you think you can hold up with a couple of guns against an army? It just sounds ridiculous
 
what is this, some stupid american theory? do you think you can hold up with a couple of guns against an army? It just sounds ridiculous

You apparently don't understand the bigger picture, I am not going to discuss anymore with you.

If you want to know the answer to it, then use common sense, I refuse to answer you again when your gonna behave with rude behaivor.
 
It's fine going by numbers but many "muslims" I've met are known to drink alcohol, sleep with women and commit sin after sin. They still call themselves muslims.
 
Well yes, last week I was watching a tv news, where a somali pirate caught by the Brittons or whatever wanted to thank the jail service for the unexpected goods that he has now in jail and he didnt have in his home back in Somalia, for example - a toilet and a running water. So yes, they multiply fast but at what level of progress they are? What is the level of life in rural Pakistan and Morocco, from where many immigrants come to Europe?
And to answer to Whatsthepoint and Kading, You are both with good will but a bit naive Im afraid. Especially the liberal attitude of Kading suprises me, especially that his grandchildren might not see a Dutch in Amsterdam. Whatsthepoint, just like me only observes it from a far distance. Our countries, hidden well in eastern central Europe doesnt have these problems because communism made us too poor to atracct the immigrants for the last 50 years. But I still want to repeat, that liberal democracy will make western Europe a muslim colony, of course I might guess that many Europeans wont care but many (especially the catholic nations) would do many things to avoid it. We even see now signs of the new system in Italy (when democracy is becoming more a decoracy as Whatsthepoint wrongly spelled). Armed soldiers on the streets, navy patrolling the sea. They even already have candidate for a leader, Gianfranco Fini. And history teaches us that Italy gives the new (sometimes bad) ideas to rest of Europe.

I think we essentially disagree two-fold:
1. We disagree on the urgency of the situation
2. I disagree that we should destroy our freedoms to save our freedom
 
It's fine going by numbers but many "muslims" I've met are known to drink alcohol, sleep with women and commit sin after sin. They still call themselves muslims.

Blacksheeps in all groups - most of these people do this sort of stuff hidden.
 
It's fine going by numbers but many "muslims" I've met are known to drink alcohol, sleep with women and commit sin after sin. They still call themselves muslims.

True, this is the real unknown. How big is the 'MINO' (Muslim in name only) group?

All this is complicated by the taboo on apostasy in Islam, which means we end up with a social group of so-called 'secular Muslims', which is an obvious contradiction in terms.
 
Blacksheeps in all groups - most of these people do this sort of stuff hidden.

But in what 'group' do these 'secular Muslims' belong? Why do we even still consider them Muslim if they don't practice? My grandparents were Christians, but that doesn't mean I am now a 'secular Christian'. I am just not a Christian, full stop.

That same logic should apply to Muslims. Islam is not an ethnicity or race, it isn't a biological trait or hereditary.
 
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But in what 'group' do these 'secular Muslims' belong? Why do we even still consider them Muslim if they don't practice?

Muslims are muslims until they out right reject the faith - sinning doesnt take you out of Islam but could make you end up in a not so nice place in the next world if they dont repent sincerly that is.

"secular muslims" - never heard anybody calling themselves that.
 
That same logic should apply to Muslims. Islam is not an ethnicity or race, it isn't a biological trait or hereditary

your right its a choice of sumbitting to God sincerly - if people take it as a joke then the joke will be on them in the next world.......unless they repent in this world sincerly.
 
But in what 'group' do these 'secular Muslims' belong? Why do we even still consider them Muslim if they don't practice? My grandparents were Christians, but that doesn't mean I am now a 'secular Christian'. I am just not a Christian, full stop.

That same logic should apply to Muslims. Islam is not an ethnicity or race, it isn't a biological trait or hereditary.
I think the social pressure to call yourself a Christian has largely diminished in European countries.
As people become more confident to openly state that they are not Christians, the ones who do refer to themselves as Christians are more likely to be actual followers of the faith.

So although statistically the numbers of Christians are reducing in Europe, they probably more honestly and realistically reflect the true numbers of actual practising Christians ...

Arguably, those who only follow religious tradition because they are 'made to' (either by parents, peers or society as a whole) aren't real followers of the faith anyway ...
I guess that thinking would apply to other faiths too.

Peace :)
 
We don't die
We multiply

I must admit that worries me, too. Don't get me wrong, my problem is with population growth in general not with a particular religion.

The world simply has too many people, a situation that is getting exponentially worse and IMO a significant reduction, over time, to perhaps half the current level is desperately needed. Suffering, famine and war over scarce resources will be the only result unless attitudes are changed. Note, 'attitudes'.. people need to be persuaded on this one, not forced.
 
I must admit that worries me, too. Don't get me wrong, my problem is with population growth in general not with a particular religion.

The world simply has too many people, a situation that is getting exponentially worse and IMO a significant reduction, over time, to perhaps half the current level is desperately needed. Suffering, famine and war over scarce resources will be the only result unless attitudes are changed. Note, 'attitudes'.. people need to be persuaded on this one, not forced.

Yes people need to scarifice and reduce there hednostic consumption. Its all about the attitudes as you said. The suffering and wars are already taking place over sacrce resources in some parts of the world.
 
right - i thought you menat stopping the hedonstic lifestyle
I'v been thinking about that and you're perfectly right. europeans should stop their hedonistic lifestyles, it's what brought them into this multicultural mess in the first place. Workers were imported ebcause natives would not do the dirty jobs. It's time they reconsider and I think the bst way to do that is to cutt off all the social benefits big time. This will make everyone do whatever job there is plus it will prevent big families, hence limiting the birth rates of certain minorities.
 
Zafran, I think you need to think up a new post, you've used the same one about 10 times already.

Even though you've repeated it so much I still don't understand your solution.
Western women should make more 'sacrifices' like Somali women? Does having a greater population than other ethnicities/religions/nationalities mean that you somehow 'win'? Could you explain to me how having 8 kids for which you would struggle to provide is selfless while a family with two working parents trying to provide a better standard of living to their 1/2 children is selfish?

Strange that those Somalis come here when Somalia must be such a great place to live.
Maybe we should all take your advice and start having more kids (like the Somalis), then in 2100 we can all celebrate when the UK population is 600 million and people are starving and killing each other for food (like the Somalis).
 
No religious growth comes anywhere near the growth of secularism. The rise of secularism is huge is increasing. Britain used to be Christian but that has declined. This is a secularist country and with the way things are heading the future Britain will remain secularist.

Being a secularist doesn't mean that we don't believe in God but we don't think of God the same way religious people do. I live my life, I look after my family, I don't hurt His people, I don't steal, murder, burgle, rape. I follow the laws of common sense. I have done nothing that warrants hell. Despite being a secularist I feel very close to God and I wear a crucifix around my neck.
 
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