Muslims, what do you think of Catholicism?

[siam]

Catechism of the catholic Church
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

What does "the plan of salvation" mean?

 

[ardianto]

You haven't explained why Paus Johannes Paulus created more saints than ALL the numbers of saints created by ALL previous popes COMBINED.

Naidamar means : Pope John Paul II

 

[Hiroshi]

To Christians at least Catholics, Jesus is both God and man. He is God made manifest.

Hi gmcbroom.

One of the hardest things for Muslim's to accept is the teaching that Jesus is God. But 1 Timothy 2:5 says: "For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus" (Jerusalem Bible).

Now a mediator is a "go-between" for two parties. But, by definition the mediator is not either one of those parties. This would seem to exclude Jesus from being that "only one God" mentioned in the verse. Doesn't this raise the possibility in your mind that Jesus might not actually be God?

Another thought: the verse goes on to say that Jesus "sacrificed himself". Is God able to die? And if Jesus did not die why would he need a resurrection?

 

[gmcbroom]

I'm off to work but at it's conclusion i'll explain my position. Have faith.

 

[Hiroshi]

I'm off to work but at it's conclusion i'll explain my position. Have faith.

Thanks my friend. Talk to you later.

 

[gmcbroom]

Hiroshi, i'll break this into parts, because tonight is Holy Thursday Theophony or Epiphany; and I need to get ready for it. In the Catholic Church this night celebrates when Jesus was found in the Temple.

When you bring up 1 Timothy 2.5 you being up the no mediator between God and man. It seems like your discussing the saints and their intercessation. But, that reference is actually about CONFESSION otherwise known as the sacrament of reconciliation.


In fact the 4 paragraphs preceding 1 Timothy 2.5 actually encourage intercession. Read it.

 

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum (peace everyone),

Check this link out, the "forgotten" sayings of our beloved Jesus(pbuh) -

http://www.beconvinced.com/archive/...0114&catid=06&subcatname=Islam & Christianityr

 

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi, i'll break this into parts, because tonight is Holy Thursday Theophony or Epiphany; and I need to get ready for it. In the Catholic Church this night celebrates when Jesus was found in the Temple.

When you bring up 1 Timothy 2.5 you being up the no mediator between God and man. It seems like your discussing the saints and their intercessation. But, that reference is actually about CONFESSION otherwise known as the sacrament of reconciliation.


In fact the 4 paragraphs preceding 1 Timothy 2.5 actually encourage intercession. Read it.

I must mention btw that I am a Jehovah's Witness. The early Christians would confess sins to one another, sure. And prayer was encouraged to help in serious cases. James 5:15-16 NIV says: "If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." Surely though, these prayers were made to God, not to saints.

But actually, my post was really intended to be about the identification of Jesus with Almighty God.

 

[gmcbroom]

First I must humbly apologize. Tonight is the Theophany or Epiphany but that's not where Jesus is found in the Temple. No, it"s actually where Jesus is Baptized by John the Foreruner. We sang and chanted as the priest took a burning coal and plunged it into the water sanctifying it and praying. This is to symbolize Jesus as he acknowledged by his Father and the Holy Spirit which hovers over him as a dove at his baptism. I realize this might not be as you read it in the Watch Tower Bible my friend. I know as a Jehova's Witness you're a Unitarian.
I'm a trinitarian. So our views will be a little different. The priest even briefly touched on the trinity by talking about the Book of Genesis chapter 18, where Abraham met 3 mysterious strangers. One was God the Father. The other 2 were actually the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. It just wasn't their time yet to be revealed.

Now onward to intercession. Read Romans 8:38-39, 1 Corinthians 12:26, Mark 12:26-27, Matthew 17:1-3, Revelations 5:7-8, and 8:3. Now I know the Watch Tower Bible may or may not have things translated the way the NAB or New American Bible is. So to keep this impartial I recommend going to the library and looking up those references in 3 different Bibles there are many versions so you should just pick 3 and compare the passages to the ones you'll find in the Watch Tower version.

I'm going to bed my friends, i'll continue tomorrow. Peace be with you.

 

[MustafaMc]

The priest even briefly touched on the trinity by talking about the Book of Genesis chapter 18, where Abraham met 3 mysterious strangers. One was God the Father. The other 2 were actually the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. It just wasn't their time yet to be revealed.

No, the 3 appeared as men to Abraham and were clearly distinct from the 'LORD' as illustrated by Genesis 18:22 "The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD."

In Islam, angels make themselves manifest to men in the form of other men, for example to Abraham as you noted above (Quran 51:24), to Mary to tell of the birth of Jesus (3:42) and to Muhammad before his companions to question Muhammad about faith, Islam and the Last Day (Bukhari hadith 2:47).

 

[MustafaMc]

One of the hardest things for Muslim's to accept is the teaching that Jesus is God. But 1 Timothy 2:5 says: "For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus" (Jerusalem Bible).

Now a mediator is a "go-between" for two parties. But, by definition the mediator is not either one of those parties. This would seem to exclude Jesus from being that "only one God" mentioned in the verse. Doesn't this raise the possibility in your mind that Jesus might not actually be God?

Well, actually if a Muslim were to accept that 'Jesus is God', then by definition he would no longer be a Muslim and become a disbeliever as shown by the Quran 5:72 "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers."

I agree with you that the verse you quoted shows that a mediator between man and God cannot be God anymore than he can be the man he is mediating for.

 

[Hiroshi]

Well, actually if a Muslim were to accept that 'Jesus is God', then by definition he would no longer be a Muslim and become a disbeliever as shown by the Quran 5:72 "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers."

Exactly. No Trinity believers would remain genuine Muslims.

I agree with you that the verse you quoted shows that a mediator between man and God cannot be God anymore than he can be the man he is mediating for.

Yes. And if Jesus is God and a mediator is required -- why is there then no mediator between Jesus and mankind? It wouldn't make sense.

 

[gmcbroom]

Actually, the reason there is no mediator between Jesus and mankind at that time was he was actually walking among us. That's why we didn't need one. Matthew 9:1-8.

Then in James 5:14-15, this happens.

I'm off to work will continue later.

 

[Hiroshi]

No, the 3 appeared as men to Abraham and were clearly distinct from the 'LORD' as illustrated by Genesis 18:22 "The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD."

In Islam, angels make themselves manifest to men in the form of other men, for example to Abraham as you noted above (Quran 51:24), to Mary to tell of the birth of Jesus (3:42) and to Muhammad before his companions to question Muhammad about faith, Islam and the Last Day (Bukhari hadith 2:47).

Yes. Genesis 18:22 refers to them as "men" when they start out to head towards Sodom. But when they arrive there they are referred to as "angels" in Genesis 19:1.

 

[MustafaMc]

Yes, you caught my point. This same confusion in the Bible between God, man and angel also occurs when Jacob supposedly wrestles with God and wins in Genesis 22:25-28 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” It absolutely and irrefutably inconceivable for a man to have wrestled with God and for this man to get the upper hand on God.

What do Catholics understand from this passage?

 

[Hiroshi]

Yes, you caught my point. This same confusion in the Bible between God, man and angel also occurs when Jacob supposedly wrestles with God and wins in Genesis 22:25-28 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” It absolutely and irrefutably inconceivable for a man to have wrestled with God and for this man to get the upper hand on God.

What do Catholics understand from this passage?

The account in Genesis 32:24 says that this was a man that Jacob wrestled with but Hosea 12:4 tells us that it was an angel.

Jacob made it his concern to seek God and to receive blessings thereby. But his life was not easy and there was much struggling with problems and circumstances. I believe that God was pleased with his persistence to gain divine favour and that in some way this was allowed to be expressed by his refusal to let the angel go until the blessing came. So it was a kind of test of Jacob's appreciation and desire for God's blessing.

 

[YusufNoor]

Hi gmcbroom.

One of the hardest things for Muslim's to accept is the teaching that Jesus is God. But 1 Timothy 2:5 says: "For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus" (Jerusalem Bible).

Now a mediator is a "go-between" for two parties. But, by definition the mediator is not either one of those parties. This would seem to exclude Jesus from being that "only one God" mentioned in the verse. Doesn't this raise the possibility in your mind that Jesus might not actually be God?

Another thought: the verse goes on to say that Jesus "sacrificed himself". Is God able to die? And if Jesus did not die why would he need a resurrection?

Alhumdulillah, how delightful that Allah led you to chose THAT PARTICULAR VERSE when describing the "one of the hardest things for Muslims to accept!"

As Muslims we DO reject THAT PARTICULAR VERSE along with it's teaching, but did you know when it comes to THAT PARTICULAR VERSE, MANY Christians ALSO reject it as authentic?

you see, 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus are called the Pastoral Letters and the majority of Biblical Scholars reject them as being written by Paul! only conservative Christians, Evangelicals and Fundies still cling to Pauline authorship. while it's not my source, Professor Bart D Ehrman being one of my chief sources, this website can elaborate on the dispute:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb3.htm

i think this quote from the site adequately portrays the issue:

Fr. Raymond E. Brown, is a member of the Vatican's Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission, and was described by Time magazine as "probably the premier Catholic scripture scholar in the U.S." 6 He has expressed his beliefs concerning the authorship of these epistles:
In his opinion, of the thirteen epistles which say that they were written by Paul, critical scholars have reached a near consensus that seven are Paul's: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans.
Agreement that he did not write:
1 & 2 Timothy and Titus is about 90%
Ephesians is about 80%
Colossians is about 60%
2 Thessalonians is a slight majority.

i'm not saying this is a preferred website by any means, i'm just using it for simplicity's sake to show the current Scholarly view on "YOUR BEST EXAMPLE" of a rejected concept.

we can now learn that:
1) Paul claims to be a Prophet and teaches a NEW Gospel NT taught by Jesus, PBUH, in his "Earthly" ministry [see other of my posts]

2) EVEN Paul's corrupted teachings are further corrupted "35 to 85 years after Paul's death" to quote the site.

we invite you to accept a Teaching that remains True that There is nothing worthy of worship except the One Who is Worthy of ALL Worship, Allah and to accept the Teachings of His Final Messenger, Muhammad, PBUH, and to reject the teachings of the false prophet, Saul of Tarsus.

Peace

 

[gmcbroom]

It wasn't uncommon for someone to,"Ghost write," in the name of another (in this case a revered elder) in the early church. Since it didn't conflict with faith and morals it was left in. Having said that; while an emminent scholar may think some one else wrote it due to a different writing style than Paul, There is still some debate about it among scholars. Some say yes its was a secretary to Paul who wrote what he said, others still, that someone else compiled it all into those Epistles . In the end, we have to either accept it or reject it. It's a matter of faith and the canon.

 

[Mohamed Issa]

Worships of the Evil Pope, catholics worship a new god/devil the Pope who lies about god saying he has a son which he has no right to say. The Pope follows another devil called Paul May Allah curse him. May Paul & the Popes enjoy the Hell Fire forever. I hope the catholics wake up to start worshiping the One & Only god Allah (SWT). Lets all pray that the conquest of Rome will happen in our life time so that we may see truth (Islam) destroy falsehood (Christianity) like how it was done in Constantinople. Both are in hadiths says of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) its just a matter of time when Rome falls. 19:34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. 19:35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. 19:36 Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. 19:37 But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day! (The Holy Quran Surah 19 Mary) 5:116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 5:117 "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. (The Holy Quran Surah 5 Al Mâ'idah) 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- 4:159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- (The Holy Quran Surah 4 An Nisâ') Read the Real Book of God The Holy Quran not the man-made bible.

 

[MustafaMc]

The account in Genesis 32:24 says that this was a man that Jacob wrestled with but Hosea 12:4 tells us that it was an angel.

Actually I made a mistake in the the verse I quoted earlier was from chapter 32 not 22.

Now in 32:30-32 it says, So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon. Why would the 'Israelites' not eat the tendom of the hip if it was a man or even an angel that had touched his hip. It is clear to me that this passage insinuates that Jacod wrestled with god as also note as the header at this site http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 32&version=NIV