Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Enemy of Islam?

[snakelegs]

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[abdil han]

According to the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights (IHF) October 2006.

Since the early 20th Century, Turkey has practiced a policy of "Turkification", a form of cultural assimilation that FAILS to recognize individuals' right to ethnic, national and religious identification and that aims at forced assimilation with a Turkish identity.

salam bro,,
as it said since early in 20th century,,in those times ,armenians,greeks,bulgarians and all ather nonmuslim minorities fought against us,thats why nationality became more important more than ever,,but we had nothing bad with kurds,arabs or with the others,,,we fought together against enemies and we found this country together,,,

now some countries want us to be seperated,,dont believe them bro,,you are muslim too,,you know also we cant be nationalist....

wassalam

 

[north_malaysian]

you know also we cant be nationalist..

First of all I'm a non-Nationalist living in a country ruled by the Nationalists. But the government encourage the minorities to retain their cultural, religious identity. So, our version of "Nationalism" is very DIFFERENT than Nationalism in other countries....

I just want my country to welcome nationalities worldwide... giving them opportunities to live here and retain their cultures... I want the government to give them Malaysian nationality...

I just want my country to be more colourful..... but reading that report about Turkification... I'm really annoyed and upset.:X

 

[abdil han]

I just want my country to be more colourful..... but reading that report about Turkification... I'm really annoyed and upset.:X

i understand bro,,but believe me the situation is pretty different than the UN reports,,we dont have problem between us n we r living in peace,,but as i said before;especially some western countries are very eager to seperate us...

take care,,,
n maybe u can see me there in malaysia oneday i like ur country...

 

[lapseki]

* DENYING FORMAL RECOGNITION OF MINORITY GROUPS;
* HINDERING THEIR ACCESS TO THE MEDIA;
* LIMITING THEIR POLITICAL PARTICIPATION;
* VIOLATING THEIR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION (ESPECIALLY IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE);
* IMPEDING THEIR FREEDOM OF RELIGION;
* REFRAINING FROM FACILITATING THEIR FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT AND TO CHOOSE THEIR PLACE OF RESIDENCE; AND
* PRACTICING OR TOLERATING VARIOUS OTHER FORM OF DIRECT OR INDIRECT DISCRIMINATION.

Turkey has 2 huge reformist wave, in 1920-30's by Ataturk.. and in 2000's aiming the EU.

according to Lozan minority's rights(1923):

1)GROUP A/to non moslem T.C. citizens:

(A) "Müslüman-olmayan (Gayrimüslim)Türk uyruklar›": Dolafl›m ve göç etme
konusunda bütün Türk uyruklarına uygulanan özgürlük (Md.38/3);
Müslümanların yararlandığı aynı medenî ve siyasal haklardan yararlanma
hakkı (Md.39/1); giderlerini ödeyerek her türlü kurum (vak›f, okul vb.)
kurmak, yönetmek ve denetlemek ve buralarda kendi dillerini kullanmak
ve ayinlerini yapmak konular›nda eflit haklar (Md. 40); önemli bir oranda
oturduklar› il ve ilçelerde, anadillerinde ö¤retim yapabilmeleri için, çeflitli
bütçelerden (devlet, belediye vd.) hakkaniyete uygun pay alma hakk› (Md.
41/ 1 ve 2); aile ve kişi statüleri konusunda gelenek ve göreneklerine saygı
(Md.42/1); inançlarına aykırı davranışta bulunmaya zorlanamama(Md. 43). Bu grubun haklar›, do¤al olarak, ayr›ca
di¤er üç grubunkileri de içermektedir.

the same freedom for migration as the Turkish nation.(md.39/1) to have the same political and civil rights as the muslims. (md.40) with paying all expense to establish, manage and control any kind of institution (like school, faundation...) and rights about to have their ceremony with their own languages in these institution. (md.41/1 ,2) at the cities or districts where they are living with high ratio to enable the education with their mother language having the right to receive payment from various budgets (like government, municipalities...). (md.42/1) respect to their traditions and customs.(md.43) not to force them to do things which are contrary to their beliefs. and includes the other groups' rights.

2)GROUP B/ to another Turkish nations who are speaking different language from Turkish:

(B) "Türkçeden başka bir dil konuşan Türk uyrukları": Mahkemelerde kendi
dillerini sözlü olarak kullanma hakkı (Md. 39/5). Bu grubun haklar›, doğal
olarak, C ve D gruplar›n›nkini de içermektedir.

to use their own language at court. and also includes the rights for group c and d.

3)GROUP C/ All Turkish nations:

(C) "Tüm Türk uyruklar›": Din, inanç veya mezhep farkının ayrımcılığa yol
açmamas› (Md. 39/3); gerek özel gerekse ticaret iliflkilerinde istediği bir dili
kullanma hakk› (Md. 39/4). Bu grubun haklar›, do¤al olarak, D
grubununkileri de içermektedir.

(md.39/3) not to give a rise to distinctions because of the difference of religion, belief or sect. and icludes the rights of group d.

4)GROUP D/ Everyone living in Turkey:

(D) "Türkiye'de oturan herkes": Milliyet, dil, soy ya da din ayırımı olmaksızın
yaşam ve özgürlük hakkı (Md. 38/1); inancına, dinine ya da mezhebine
karışılmaması (Md. 38/2); din ayrımı gözetilmeksizin yasa önünde eşitlik
hakkı (Md. 39/2).

(md.38/1) without any distinction according to nation, religion, language, race life and freedom rights. (md.38/2) not to interfere to anyone's belief,religion or sect. (md.39/2) to be equal in front of law.

these are accepted at 1923 ..

and till 2000s lots of things added.. to improve democracy and freedom. i tried to translate these with my insufficient english.. i hope they are clear to understand.
and in our daily life no one cares anyone's nation or religion. an exclusion because of being from a different nation or religion is not even in question. making your conclusion only with a source is not objective.

 

[Grace Seeker]

are you saying almost as many german christians died resisting hitler as jews?
do you have a source for this?

I said "nearly", you said "almost", both are relative terms. If I remember some prior stats, about (another indefinite term) 11 million people lost their lives under Hitler, about 6 million of those were Jews. Jews certainly shared a disporotional share of the holocaust, but it was not isolated to jews. On a proportional basis, relative to their population, Europe's gypsies faired even worse than the Jews. Christians suffered for a variety of reasons. Some simply because they were enemies of Hitler or threats to his ascendcy to power. Others because they actually resisted the work of the Nazis and tried to prevent them from accomplishing their goals. Still others were those who were simply caught up in one of the many purges Hitler brought against his own people. And then lastly were those of conquered territories who continued to resist even after Germany had defeated them and placed them under German rule.

Also, not all the Jews that were murdered by Hitler were Germans. Indeed the Polish Jews suffered worse than the German Jews. Russian, Chezoslovakian, Austrian, Italian, Hungarian, Bulgurian, Greek, Dutch and French Jews were also targeted for extermination.

from Wikipedia
Recently declassified British and Soviet documents have indicated the total may be somewhat higher than previously believed. The following estimates provide a range of the number of victims:

An estimated 5 to 6 million Jews, including 3 million Polish Jews
1.8 – 1.9 million Christian Poles and other (non-Jewish) Poles (estimate includes civilians killed as a result of Nazi aggression and occupation but does not include the military casualties of Nazi aggression or the victims of the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and of deportations to Central Asia and Siberia)
200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
80,000-200,000 European Freemasons
100,000 communists
10,000–25,000 homosexual men
2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses

The following groups of people were also killed by the Nazi regime, but there is little evidence that the Nazis planned to systematically target them for genocide as was the case for the groups above.
3.5–6 million other Slavic civilians
2.5–4 million Soviet POWs
1–1.5 million political dissidents
Additionally, the Ustaša regime, the Nazis' allies in Croatia, conducted its own campaign of mass extermination against the Serbs in the areas which it controlled, resulting in the deaths of 500,000–1.2 million Serbs.


Here are some noted individual Christians that died under Hitler specifically because they resisted him:
Kai Munk, d. 1944, murdered by an SS-Sonderkommando, Danish theologian, playwright
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, d. 1945, hanged in concentration camp, German Lutheran pastor, theologian
Jochen Klepper, d. 1942, suicide shortly before deportation, Berlin German theologian, journalist
Friedrich Lorenz, d. 1944, executed, Halle an der Saale German priest, member of Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate
Rupert Mayer, d. 1945, German Jesuit priest
Paul Schneider, d. 1939, died in Buchenwald, German clergyman
Edith Stein, d. 1942, German nun, Catholic saint (born Jewish)
Maximilian Kolbe, d. 1941, died in Auschwitz, Polish friar, Catholic saint
Stefan Wincenty Frelichowski, d. 1945, died in Dachau, Polish priest

And here is a bibliography to pursue further on your own:​

Victoria Barnet, FOR THE SOUL OF THE PEOPLE: Protestant Protest Against Hitler, Oxford University Press: New York, 1998.

Victoria Barnett,. "Dietrich Bonhoeffer " in U.S Holocaust Memorial Museum
Web Site , http://www.ushmm.org/bonhoeffer/index.html

Shareen B. Brysac, Resisting Hitler: Mildred Harnack and the Red Orchestra
(New York, 2000).

J.S. Conway, The Nazi Persecution of the Churches: 1933-45 , BASIC BOOKS, Inc.: New York, 1968.

Joachim Fest, Plotting Hitler’s Death: The Story of the German Resistance,
tr. Bruce Little (New York, 1994).

Michael Geyer and John Boyer, eds., Resistance against the Third Reich, 1933 – 1990 (Chicago, 1994).

Anton Gill, An Honorable Defeat: A History of German Resistance to Hitler,
1933 – 1945 (New York, 1994).

Herman Graml et al., The German Resistance to Hitler (Berkeley, 1970).

Theodore Hamerow, On the Road to the Wolf’s Lair: German Resistance to Hitler (London, 1997).

Peter Hoffmann, The History of The German Resistance 1933 - 1945, tr. Richard Barry (Cambridge, 1977).

Blaire Holmes and Alan Keele, eds., When Truth was Treason: German Youth
against Hitler (Chicago, 1995).

Daniel Horn, “Youth Resistance in the Third Reich,” Journal of Social History
7 (1973): 26 – 50.

Martyh Housden, Resistance and conformity in the Third Reich, Routledge Publishers: London, 1997.

Karl Heinz Jahnke and Michael Buddrus comps., Deutsche Jugend 1933 – 1945: Eine Dokumenatation ( Hamburg, 1989).

Ian Kershaw, Popular Opinion and Political Dissent in the Third Reich: Barvaria, 1933 - 1945 (Oxford, 1984).

David Clay Large, ed., Contending with Hitler: Varieties of German Resistance in the Third Reich (Cambridge, 1991).

Richard Löwenthal, Die Widerstandsgruppe “Neu beginnen” (Berlin, 1982).

Tim Mason, “The Worker’s Opposition in Nazi Germany”, History Workshop
Journal 11 (1981): 120 – 137.

Detlev Peukert. Inside Nazi Germany: Conformity, Opposition, and Racism in
Everyday Life, tr. Richard Deveson (New Haven, 1987).

Theodore N. Thomas, WOMEN AGAINST HITLER: Christian Resistance in the Third Reich PRAEGER Publishers: Westport, CT, 1995.

 

[snakelegs]

thanks, grace seeker. i know that many, many more non-jews were killed than jews. it was just the way you put it and the hour that had me confused.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

At least under the present system, the PM of Turkey cannot tell any Imam what to say or not say.

i dont agree with this,coz the ministery of religion says what imams will tell in friday prayer's preeches in Turkey,,,

Then I humbly stand corrected. I knew that the minister of religion had significant power, I did not realize it was to that extent.

 

[Grace Seeker]

thanks, grace seeker. i know that many, many more non-jews were killed than jews. it was just the way you put it and the hour that had me confused.

Well, if you count deaths as a result of military conflict that is most certainly true. However, if you count only deaths that occur in as a result of non-military action then slightly more than half of all deaths from the direct action of the Nazis were perpetrated against the Jews. And as I said originally, this still means that nearly as many Christians as Jews died under Hitler's regime.

 

[snakelegs]

graceseeker,
yes, i agree. it was a misunderstanding on my part.
we can agree that way too many people, of all kinds, got killed.

 

[Keltoi]

The death toll from all sides in WWII was beyond comprehension.

 

[Khan-Ghalgha]

Mustafa kemal's mission was not only to break up Khalifat, more like help along cos it was already factually broken, but ensure Turkey would be isolated from the rest of the islamic world, ideologically isolated. Nationalism was introduced to replace idea of muslim unity by idea of turkish unity, and to hinder any attempts or ideas from of Khalifats ressurection from gaining power in Turkey.

In this case unlike in Bush's failed adventure mission was indeed accomplished, it is a complete success for europeans. Before they were shaking in fear when Ottomans were advancing on them, besieging Vienna, now they are begging Europeans to let them in, I'm sure europeans enjoy every single moment of turkish humiliation, former world power transformed into local beggar...+o(

 

[lapseki]

ottoman empire was sick man of europe in 18 century. Turkey take a wreck over from ottoman. but Turkey still the most forward country between the all islamic countries. so you better worry about your own country's future rather than Turkey's europe advanture

 

[north_malaysian]

but Turkey still the most forward country between the all islamic countries.

is it? I hate the current Malaysian government .... but remember we Malaysians will make sure that the revival of Islamic civilisation will start from our country. Inshallah..

 

[lapseki]

i really dont know much about malaysia. but by your comment i have a little research about it. i would really want an islamic country to become super power of world. but this is impossible by prohibitions, or to limit freedom... to be govern by an antidemocratic way. your dream is good but in reality it seems to be stayed as just a dream.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Wherever it starts from, InshaAllah it will. Thats all that matters...

 

[wizra]

Ataturk is a kaafir

5:44. ...And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn

72:23. ...and whosoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, then verily, for him is the Fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever.

 

[north_malaysian]

i really dont know much about malaysia. but by your comment i have a little research about it. i would really want an islamic country to become super power of world. but this is impossible by prohibitions, or to limit freedom... to be govern by an antidemocratic way. your dream is good but in reality it seems to be stayed as just a dream.

We dont want to be super power of the world..... we just want to be civilised. the most civilised muslims in the world.

 

[Dahir]

Lapseki,

Democracy is a form of government in which the people create the rules. A complete Islamic society rules the opposite way, by Theocracy.

Anti-democratic is exactly what Theocracy is, not exactly a bad thing though, as people aren't perfect.

 

[Skillganon]

so you have to accept this secular system.. it wont be changed)

Just like Allah(Swt) and his messenger brought the arabs out of paganism into Worshiping Allah(swt), from darkness to light.

Inshallah Turkey will be brought out of from this worship of false gods to Worship of Allah(swt), from darkness to light. Wheter you like it or not just like some of the pagans of the arabs did not.

If you think anythink other than Islam will be accepted of you than you are being foolish.

Wassalam