Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Enemy of Islam?

[north_malaysian]

i dont need any idea about this matter...

i ll go nowhere!! at least not to usa,,maybe malaysia,or dubai,,,where i can find more respectful people to my blessed religion...

You're welcomed here.......

 

[north_malaysian]

aferin sana 1 şey söylüyosun bari arkasında dur... yarası olan gocunur şeklinde döndürme.. ne demek istediğini anlamayacak kadar salak deilim... ayrıca tek pencereden bakma diyen insana bak..!! komiksin

Translation Please!!!!!

 

[north_malaysian]

ben sözlerimin arkasındayım,

benim kimseyle,kemalistlerle,sağcılarla,solcularla bir problemim yok,herkes istediği gibi,istediği ülkede yaşasın...


önce saldırıp sonra laf işitince agresif olmanada gerek yok,

bu arada,öncede dediğim gibi,nasıl hissediyorsak oyuz,
ben bu ülkeden gidecek biri olarak görmüyorum kendimi,ama sen ikide bir git deyip saldırıyosun,,,ben buranın yerlisiyim,,misafir gelmedik bu vatana...kimsede bize git deme hakkına sahip değildir...

bizi dinci,solcu,komünist,sağcı,ateist ,kürt,laz,çerkez diye sınıflandırıp bölenlere de itibar etmemek gerekir...bir arada huzur içinde,özgürce yaşayalım..

ne içkisini içene birşey densin,ne başını örtene,ne namaz kılana,ne de mini etek giyene...özgürlük herkese eşit bir şekilde verildiğinde anlam kazanır...

diyeceklerim bukadar,artık bu mevzu hakkında tartışmak istemiyorum...
kib

( sorry we wrote in turkish,but it was needed)

Translations Please!!!

 

[north_malaysian]

bu ülkenin rejimini kabul etmiyenler.. ya bunu kabul edecekler ya da defolup gidecekler.. Türkiyenin ne iran ne de diğer arap ülkeleri gibi olması söz konusu bile değildir. demokrasideki eksiklikler elbette düzeltilir.. senin laik demokratik bir Türkiye Cumhuriyetiyle sorunun yoksa bu yazdıklarımı üstüne alınman abest. ama burda bana muhalefet olduğuna göre bi hayli takıksın.

translation please!!!!:blind:

 

[abdil han]

bu ülkenin rejimini kabul etmiyenler.. ya bunu kabul edecekler ya da defolup gidecekler.. Türkiyenin ne iran ne de diğer arap ülkeleri gibi olması söz konusu bile değildir. demokrasideki eksiklikler elbette düzeltilir.. senin laik demokratik bir Türkiye Cumhuriyetiyle sorunun yoksa bu yazdıklarımı üstüne alınman abest. ama burda bana muhalefet olduğuna göre bi hayli takıksın.

bu seviyede tartışamam...

 

[abdil han]

For me USA is more Islamic than Turkey. How can they force the Kurds, Circassians, Tatars, Bosniaks, Albanians, Arabs, Assyrians, Pontics, Cretans, Greeks and Armenians to be Turks.

Minorities should be allowed to retain their unique identity....

no one forces them to be turks or somethng else bro,,
u dont know the situation here i guess...

we are all living in equal conditions, n they are our brothers,,,except some extremes no one care about nationalities here,,,




n about the turkish posts..not that important,actually she was little aggressive n wrote those things...so i thought it s better to reply in turkish too..

take care...

salam

 

[lapseki]

For me USA is more Islamic than Turkey. How can they force the Kurds, Circassians, Tatars, Bosniaks, Albanians, Arabs, Assyrians, Pontics, Cretans, Greeks and Armenians to be Turks. 

Minorities should be allowed to retain their unique identity....

who is forcing whom????!!!!! learn enough and then write your conclusion..




seviyemden dolayı benimle tartışamayacağınız için yas tutmaktayım ..ah nasıl bir keder içine girdim.. yurdumun muhteşem, ahlaklı, üstün, aristokrat "muhafazakar" beyi

 

[Darkseid]

Political Reforms

Abolition of the office of the Ottoman Sultan ruling since 1218, sending the last members of the House of Osman out of the country, and therefore giving the Turkish nation the right to exercise popular sovereignty via representative democracy

Representative democracies are better than monarchies.

And besides, you got to keep up with the times. As humanity progresses so must its society as changes come and so does administration.

Proclamation of the new Turkish state as a republic - Republic of Turkey
Abolition of the office of caliphate held by the Ottomans since 1517

I find nothing wrong with a republic as long as it is a democratic republic.

Social Reforms

Reform of headgear and dress
Adoption of international calendar, hours and measurements (As opposed to the Islamic calendar)

I don't concure with the international calender, but I do with using the metric system of measurements.

I think Spring should be the beginning of the the Year and Winter should be the end.

Legal Reforms

Closure of Islamic courts and the abolition of Islamic canon law (Death of Sharia in Turkey) Transfer to a secular law structure by adoption from Swiss Civil Code and other laws (As opposed to Sharia) Introduction of the new penal law modeled after Italian Penal Code (As opposed to Sharia) Complete separation of government and religious affairs and the inclusion of the principle of laïcité in the constitution

I can agree that Turkey could have established a better republic, but there is nothing wrong with seperating the church (mosque) from the state. As a matter of fact it is a must. You can't have the state controlled by a religious institution, because it would limit the freedom of other religious institutions. It would destroy peace rather than establish it.

Since religious takes an important role in establishing laws. You could very well have a muslim version to the international christian ones used world wide.

Educational/Cultural Reforms

Abolishing of religious education system and the introduction of a national education system as the uniform standard (Unification of education)
Adoption of the new Turkish alphabet, derived from the Latin Alphabet (Ataturk opposed Arabic alphabets used in the Holy Quran)
Regulation of the university education

Arabic is used in the Koran because Muhammad was born in the Arabian Peninsula and therefore was mostly influenced by Arabic. If Muhammad was born in Iran (Persia) he would have had the Koran written in Iranian (Persian) rather than in Arabic. Same if Muhammad was born in an Aztec community rather than in a Middle-Eastern Community.

But nevertheless Latin letters do serve their purpose and Arabic serves its own as well.

Economic Reforms

Abolition of capitulations of the Ottoman Empire in effect since the 15th century Abolition of tithes (Ataturk opposed giving money to MOSQUES)

Trust me. THAT is a good thing. By opposing giving money to mosques, Ataturk was insuring the properity of his own country and the seperation of the state from the church.

Trust me about this. If the government had the right to give money to mosques then the government could just take over religion it self. Hey they are giving money to these religious institutions. If the religious institutions were saying or teaching something that was against the state, then the state could just take over, appoint its own clergy, and then excersize the religious institutions its own way. Even if those means were against the koran.

Trust me, things could have been A LOT worse. You could be having a Stalinistic Turkey where Islam is forbidden entirely like how religious was forbidden entirely in the Soviet Union.

 

[abdil han]

seviyemden dolayı benimle tartışamayacağınız için yas tutmaktayım ..ah nasıl bir keder içine girdim.. yurdumun muhteşem, ahlaklı, üstün, aristokrat "muhafazakar" beyi

iltifatlarınız için teşekkürler,muhafazakar olduğum için de nasıl mesudum bilemezsiniz...
bukadar üzüleceğinizi bilseydim öyle bir izansızlık yapıp, kalbinizi derin acılara garketmezdim....

 

[lapseki]

aaa estagfurullah beyfendiciğimmmm... canınız sağ olsun... sayenizde vücudumun muhtelif 1 yeriyle gülmeyi öğrendim.. yazdığınız 1 çok cevaba

 

[çanakkale]

Atatürk'ün kemiklerini sızlatan insanlar artık defolsun...Adam bu milleti gençlere bıraktı ama ne yazık ki yattığı yerde bazıları yüzünden rahat uyuyamıyor

 

[Grace Seeker]

Economic Reforms

Abolition of capitulations of the Ottoman Empire in effect since the 15th century Abolition of tithes (Ataturk opposed giving money to MOSQUES)

Trust me. THAT is a good thing. By opposing giving money to mosques, Ataturk was insuring the properity of his own country and the seperation of the state from the church.

Trust me about this. If the government had the right to give money to mosques then the government could just take over religion it self. Hey they are giving money to these religious institutions. If the religious institutions were saying or teaching something that was against the state, then the state could just take over, appoint its own clergy, and then excersize the religious institutions its own way. Even if those means were against the koran.

Trust me, things could have been A LOT worse. You could be having a Stalinistic Turkey where Islam is forbidden entirely like how religious was forbidden entirely in the Soviet Union.

I hadn't thought about this before, but Darkseid has a good point here. In 1930s Germany, the church was run by the state, so when Hitler came to power, he also had the power to appoint whoever he wanted to be head of the church and thus controlled what was preached in the pulpits of Germany. One of the most terrible things about what took place was that the church never spoke up against what Hitler was doing, not because Christians thought it was all good (nearly as many Christians died resisting Hitler as did Jews), but because the governement controlled what the church could say publicly.

At least under the present system, the PM of Turkey cannot tell any Imam what to say or not say.

 

[Darkseid]

I hadn't thought about this before, but Darkseid has a good point here. In 1930s Germany, the church was run by the state, so when Hitler came to power, he also had the power to appoint whoever he wanted to be head of the church and thus controlled what was preached in the pulpits of Germany. One of the most terrible things about what took place was that the church never spoke up against what Hitler was doing, not because Christians thought it was all good (nearly as many Christians died resisting Hitler as did Jews), but because the governement controlled what the church could say publicly.

At least under the present system, the PM of Turkey cannot tell any Imam what to say or not say.

That is absolutely correct. The manner of which people think and believe should be seperate from the state.

 

[snakelegs]

(nearly as many Christians died resisting Hitler as did Jews), but because the governement controlled what the church could say publicly.

are you saying almost as many german christians died resisting hitler as jews?
do you have a source for this?

 

[Khan-Ghalgha]

The separation of state and church concept doesn't exist in Islam.

Trying to apply concepts relevant to christianity could be a complete nonsence if applied to Islam, as is in this case. Islam is a COMPLETE way of life, means political, economical and in every way possible, Islam governs lives of muslims.

 

[Khan-Ghalgha]

Since religious takes an important role in establishing laws. You could very well have a muslim version to the international christian ones used world wide.

LOL, sorry had to say that, could you cite me a couple of "christian laws" used worldwide?

 

[Darkseid]

are you saying almost as many german christians died resisting hitler as jews?
do you have a source for this?

Grace is not saying that. Grace is saying that anyone that criticized the Nazi regime is as likely to die as that of the Jews. Heck Hitler had his former superior killed, just because he thought he might be a threat.

Like with all insane people in power, anyone who might become a threat or is a threat will be instantly killed or erased. Stalin did this with his competitors and so did all other fascist like governments.

The fact that Nazism is a fascist like government should be proof enough to support the same outcome. Plus there is plenty of evidence if you just look it up on the web. Come on, are you afraid of searching up on the web? Google is a friendly search provider, come on give it a try? It won't bite back, I promise.

The separation of state and church concept doesn't exist in Islam.

Well that's because you go to a mosque rather than a church. It would be the same if I said it to a Jew. They don't go to church either. They go their own community building of religious conduct. Anyways, all religions are suppose to be seperate from the state, as that is what god and my muslim friend had told me. If the two aren't seperate, then either the state will control the church like in Nazi Germany or the church will control the state like in the middle ages. And what happen because of that? What happen when the church became corrupt by politics? It broke apart creating the protestant branch of christianity. Politics can corrupt anything and if you want to keep your faith free from political corruption then don't associate it with politics. It is no more simple than that and that's why the religious institutions are suppose to be seperate from the state. Now I'm not saying they can't influence the state with making laws, which is a part of Islam. But it shouldn't say who can and who can't be elected. And it can't directly say what kind of progress people should make in society. It shouldn't be the one that regulates trade or tells business people to what the minimum wage should be. That's for independent politicians to decide on an unbias status.

Trying to apply concepts relevant to christianity could be a complete nonsence if applied to Islam, as is in this case. [/qyite[

Well you said could rather than is. So I'll take your word on that. But Islam isn't that much different from certain forms of christianity.

In certain forms of christianity, people have to pilgrim to sacred parts of the world that pertain to christianity. In certain forms of christianity, women have to wear special clothing to conceal parts of their body from being noticed in society. In certain forms of christianity like in Mormonism, men are allow to have more than one wife. In certain forms of christianity, people pray many times during the day and not just before eating. In certain forms of christianity, people have to recite their holy book many times during the day.

Islam also has many sects and different schools, so it isn't that much different from christianity.

Islam is a COMPLETE way of life, means political, economical and in every way possible, Islam governs lives of muslims.

Islam is a culture that is presented in many different ways of life, but hardly a way of life on its own. No faith made by Allah is a way of life. Where do I get that from? Allah. All faiths are a part of many different ways of life. Because faith is a seperate issue, but can become a part of someone's life. I believe my Malaysian associate will agree. Islam is a part of your life and it is a part of many other people's lives. But their lives are completely different. Like the difference between an Iranian and a Saudi Arabian. The life difference between a Syrian and a Jordanian. The life difference between a Hui and a Palestinian. A grand majority of them follow the same faith, but they do not have the same lives. Rich muslims don't share the same lives as that of poor muslims. So Islam not a way of life. It is a belief system that is associated into a lot of people's lives, because it is their faith. It is their religion, but nothing more than that or you aren't simply following that faith. When you start speaking of a religion more than it is, then you are establishing an unstable environment. This was done many times in the past and all leads to disaster. Why do you think so many muslims have become pro-democratic rather than pro-authoritarian? Because they want to live their own life, but still as a muslim. They want to pray six times a day. But they don't want someone else telling them about it. They believe they have the right as fellow human beings to say how they should follow their religious practices so that they can be true muslims and truly follow god's grace as god would want them to individually serve him. Now did you got all of that?

 

[Khan-Ghalgha]

Well that's because you go to a mosque rather than a church. It would be the same if I said it to a Jew. They don't go to church either.

I wrote - "concept", pay attention please.

Elaborate on "institution of church" please.

Anyways, all religions are suppose to be seperate from the state, as that is what god and my muslim friend had told me. If the two aren't seperate, then either the state will control the church like in Nazi Germany or the church will control the state like in the middle ages

The point being? Someone has to control the state, don't you think? Right now in the west state controls the church, is it bad?

And what happen because of that? What happen when the church became corrupt by politics? It broke apart creating the protestant branch of christianity.

That happened to catholic church, it became a corrupted institution overall, not only politically, there were other reasons even more important, dogmatic reasons. How does that relate to non-existant "mosque institution", if you will, in Islam?

Politics can corrupt anything and if you want to keep your faith free from political corruption then don't associate it with politics. It is no more simple than that and that's why the religious institutions are suppose to be seperate from the state.

Well if politics can corrupt anything, then what the difference between having a religion in control of the state or not - it could be corrupted anyway, right? Or religion makes it somehow worse? The worst crimes against humanity were commited while religion was completely out of the way, so I dont see a reason to keep them apart.

ow I'm not saying they can't influence the state with making laws, which is a part of Islam. But it shouldn't say who can and who can't be elected.

Why not?

And it can't directly say what kind of progress people should make in society.

Hmmm, I think I missed your point here.

That's for independent politicians to decide on an unbias status.

Unbiased status, interesting choice of words and what would that be?

Well you said could rather than is. So I'll take your word on that. But Islam isn't that much different from certain forms of christianity.

Have to disagree, judging by your reasoning I can tell you simply lack some basic understanding of Islam. It is in fact very much different from all forms of christianity and especially when it comes to the whole separation of "church" and state thing. But if you insist, bring up evidences from islamic teachings and concepts that prove such separation is even conceivable in Islam.

n certain forms of christianity, people have to pilgrim to sacred parts of the world that pertain to christianity. In certain forms of christianity, women have to wear special clothing to conceal parts of their body from being noticed in society. In certain forms of christianity like in Mormonism, men are allow to have more than one wife. In certain forms of christianity, people pray many times during the day and not just before eating. In certain forms of christianity, people have to recite their holy book many times during the day.

Islam also has many sects and different schools, so it isn't that much different from christianity.

You think that's enough to say that 2 religions are so alike?

Islam is a culture that is presented in many different ways of life, but hardly a way of life on its own.

Wrong. I think you need more knowledge of Islam to prove me that.

Islam is a culture that is presented in many different ways of life, but hardly a way of life on its own. No faith made by Allah is a way of life. Where do I get that from? Allah. All faiths are a part of many different ways of life. Because faith is a seperate issue, but can become a part of someone's life. I believe my Malaysian associate will agree. Islam is a part of your life and it is a part of many other people's lives. But their lives are completely different. Like the difference between an Iranian and a Saudi Arabian. The life difference between a Syrian and a Jordanian. The life difference between a Hui and a Palestinian. A grand majority of them follow the same faith, but they do not have the same lives. Rich muslims don't share the same lives as that of poor muslims. So Islam not a way of life. It is a belief system that is associated into a lot of people's lives, because it is their faith. It is their religion, but nothing more than that or you aren't simply following that faith. When you start speaking of a religion more than it is, then you are establishing an unstable environment. This was done many times in the past and all leads to disaster. Why do you think so many muslims have become pro-democratic rather than pro-authoritarian? Because they want to live their own life, but still as a muslim. They want to pray six times a day. But they don't want someone else telling them about it. They believe they have the right as fellow human beings to say how they should follow their religious practices so that they can be true muslims and truly follow god's grace as god would want them to individually serve him. Now did you got all of that?

I think you confuse the concept "way of life" and actual induvidual life. And again you compare islam to christianity when it's very different from it. I suggest you read more about early islamic history, especially about 4 righteous Khalfa's(r.a.)

Why do you think so many muslims have become pro-democratic rather than pro-authoritarian?

Ehm, why would we be pro-authoritarian?

Because they want to live their own life, but still as a muslim. They want to pray six times a day. But they don't want someone else telling them about it.

I'm sorry but it didn't make any sence to me at all.

They want to pray six times a day. But they don't want someone else telling them about it. They believe they have the right as fellow human beings to say how they should follow their religious practices so that they can be true muslims and truly follow god's grace as god would want them to individually serve him. Now did you got all of that?

No, not really, unless you mean that muslims couldnt do all that when under islamic rule? I think if muslim wants to pray 6 times a day rather than 5 as prophet Muhammad have established, I think he's free to do so

 

[abdil han]

At least under the present system, the PM of Turkey cannot tell any Imam what to say or not say.

i dont agree with this,coz the ministery of religion says what imams will tell in friday prayer's preeches in Turkey,,,

 

[north_malaysian]

who is forcing whom????!!!!! learn enough and then write your conclusion..

According to the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights (IHF) October 2006.

Since the early 20th Century, Turkey has practiced a policy of "Turkification", a form of cultural assimilation that FAILS to recognize individuals' right to ethnic, national and religious identification and that aims at forced assimilation with a Turkish identity. It encompasses several strategies whose rationale violates, in one way or another, internationally guaranteed standard for minority rights. These strategies still include:

* DENYING FORMAL RECOGNITION OF MINORITY GROUPS;
* HINDERING THEIR ACCESS TO THE MEDIA;
* LIMITING THEIR POLITICAL PARTICIPATION;
* VIOLATING THEIR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION (ESPECIALLY IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE);
* IMPEDING THEIR FREEDOM OF RELIGION;
* REFRAINING FROM FACILITATING THEIR FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT AND TO CHOOSE THEIR PLACE OF RESIDENCE; AND
* PRACTICING OR TOLERATING VARIOUS OTHER FORM OF DIRECT OR INDIRECT DISCRIMINATION.

Source:- http://www.ihf-hr.org/viewbinary/viewdocument.php?doc_id=7081

At least the Islamists in Iran allows the Jews and Christians to retain their religious and cultural identity....