News 4m Pakistan

[Keltoi]

The U.S. isn't going to intervene unless the extremists take power away from Mushareff, which creates a security vacuum for nuclear weapon control.

 

[Omar_Mukhtar]

She virtually declared war on Osama Bin laden and was making some noises as to how she will crack down on them in the Northern province, of course it was all a way of getting support and exicting the powers that be. What would she have done that Musharaf hasn't done? That is all assuming that she was ever going to take power. Plus she had many enemies, so no surprises they got her in the end. Of course some concerned people will literally try to convince you that this a struggle between good and evil and that this lady was a beacon of hope for Pakistan!These are the same people who acting like an assisination is a something unique to the Islamic world. Of course the West is to civilized to assisinate any of it's opponents in the developing world. Ohh, god that is what the Chinese and other colored people do. You see these crazy radical Marzlems assisinated Malcom X, J.F.K and even Martin Luther King.

Pakistani is in the middle of a power struggle. Some will scream democracy to the gullible masses; some will shout Allahu Akbar and others will cry injustice in the name of their tribe. We've seen it all before in Somalia, Lebanon and Afghanistan. Expect only in this case, Pakistan sits on nuclear war heads and a middle aged man with a broadband connection is hiding somewhere in Pakistan( possibly a cave with airconditioning). Meanwhile the next saviour of Pakistani is receiving her/his brief somewhere in a london or possible a Washington office. Or perhaps they will have to wait a decade or so and they will stick with General Musharaf? If Musharaf gets one in the membrain....then oh boy.... I wouldn't want to think of the consequences of that!

 

[Omar_Mukhtar]

The U.S. isn't going to intervene unless the extremists take power away from Mushareff, which creates a security vacuum for nuclear weapon control.

If the " extremists" seized control wouldn't be too late? Anyway, I don't think Pakistani society and the political instituions are as week as some are claiming! I expect Musharaf with his army can be a lid on things! The state is still in control of nearly all the major cities.

 

[wilberhum]

If the " extremists" seized control wouldn't be too late? Anyway, I don't think Pakistani society and the political instituions are as week as some are claiming! I expect Musharaf with his army can be a lid on things! The state is still in control of nearly all the major cities.

Musharaf has never had "a lid on things". :muddlehea

 

[snakelegs]

Pakistani is in the middle of a power struggle. Some will scream democracy to the gullible masses; some will shout Allahu Akbar and others will cry injustice in the name of their tribe.

and the people lose, whatever the outcome. :unhappy:

 

[Omar_Mukhtar]

Tell me one major city such as Karachi, Islamabad.... or any other which isn't not under the control of the military and Musharaf?

 

[wilberhum]

Tell me one major city such as Karachi, Islamabad.... or any other which isn't not under the control of the military and Musharaf?

Are you implying controlling the major cities is having "A Lid" on the entire country? :muddlehea

 

[Amadeus85]

I dont understand why those people in Pakistan protest against Musharaff and the state while the killers of Bhutto were religious extremists.

 

[NoName55]

I don't understand why those people in Pakistan protest against Musharaf and the state while the killers of Bhutto were religious extremists.

because they are part of rent-a-mob run by and paid for by foreign powers laying ground for take over of Pakistan by next year

 

[Omar_Mukhtar]

Are you implying controlling the major cities is having "A Lid" on the entire country? :muddlehea

In this case yes. In other words the possibility of them seizing the nuclear weapons and the major institutions do not seem rather unlikely. Of course I'll be the first to admit that I am no expert on Pakistani politics. But I do know that it is highly unlikely that the vast majority of Pakistanis will switch to the Taliban type of Islam which some label as Deobandism. Nor are the political institutions so weak as in Afghanistan and Somalia that one group of millitants could so easily take over. Yes insurgencies and troubles will rage on, but that happens in many other countries. From a political angle, Musharaf appears to be in control of things( however frail and dictatorial). It's only the neoconservatives who are blaming Musharaf for the failures of their own policy. They failed to kill or capture the leadership, so Musharaf is convenient scapegoat for that. If the British let the tribal region rule themselves and the entire nato couldn't curb the so called millitancy in that region; what did they expect Musharaf to do? Destroy all of them and hand them Osama on a plate? Of course you will begin to see many englightened " "experts" arguing that Pakistan is being overun and as I said this doesn't appear to be the case!

 

[Woodrow]

because they are part of rent-a-mob run by and paid for by foreign powers laying ground for take over of Pakistan by next year

I agree with that. this is just the catalyst that is going to make it happen faster, than I thought it would. I figured it would be 5 or 10 years off. But, it looks like 2008 is the year Pakistan vanishes as a Nation.

 

[Amadeus85]

I agree with that. this is just the catalyst that is going to make it happen faster, than I thought it would. I figured it would be 5 or 10 years off. But, it looks like 2008 is the year Pakistan vanishes as a Nation.

I won't pretend that I'm Pakistan expert, but what you guys are saying is quite suprised for me.I know that Pakistan is not a nation but rather a group of tribes. So how you think, which countries will take Pakistan's land and do you see it as definitely negative thing or you maybe have different views?

 

[Woodrow]

I won't pretend that I'm Pakistan expert, but what you guys are saying is quite suprised for me.I know that Pakistan is not a nation but rather a group of tribes. So how you think, which countries will take Pakistan's land and do you see it as definitely negative thing or you maybe have different views?

I see Afghanistan simply announcing the border States as being Afghanistan, the big struggle will be how Iran and India divide the remainder. I suspect Iran will take the biggest chunk.

Now good, bad or indifferent???????

No matter what the people are going to be the big loosers.

 

[snakelegs]

No matter what the people are going to be the big loosers.

yes - that you can be sure of.
rent-a-mobs are not as far fetched as it seems at first. and many things are not necessarily what they seem - AQ, for example.
:hiding:

 

[Amadeus85]

I see Afghanistan simply announcing the border States as being Afghanistan, the big struggle will be how Iran and India divide the remainder. I suspect Iran will take the biggest chunk.

Now good, bad or indifferent???????

No matter what the people are going to be the big loosers.

By Afghanistan you mean who? NATO, talebans, Pashtuns or Karzai's militias?
Were those lands Iran's (Persians) territories in past? I guess you mean about the territory where are many shiah muslims.
As i said, I'm not Pakistan expert, but you guys are saying this stuff like if Pakistani people wouldnt want fight for the independence and unity of their country. I mean there are over 180 million people for God's sake.

 

[snakelegs]

pakistan is made up of different people with different languages and cultures - sindhis, baluchis, pashtuns, punjabis, indian refugees, etc etc. many among the first 3 are not happy with the central government at all and there are strong forces for separatism. the border dividing the pashtuns is artifical - the same people are on both sides. i think this may be somewhat true with the baluchis also.
india would be more than happy to have w. punjab back as that's choice land anyway.

 

[Woodrow]

By Afghanistan you mean who? NATO, talebans, Pashtuns or Karzai's militias?
Were those lands Iran's (Persians) territories in past? I guess you mean about the territory where are many shiah muslims.
As i said, I'm not Pakistan expert, but you guys are saying this stuff like if Pakistani people wouldnt want fight for the independence and unity of their country. I mean there are over 180 million people for God's sake.

I personally suspect that those currently using the name Taliban will assume control of those districts. It seems that the majority of the people there consider themselves Afghani anyhow. So that will not be a significant change. More just a redoing the maps.

Yes Iran did control much of Pakistan in the past and I believe they do still consider it their land. I suspect there are many Iranian supporters in Pakistan.

True 180 Million people, but have been kept deeply divided since 1947.

 

[Cognescenti]

So Bhutto's death is the fault of the "West' for brokering a deal with Musharraf???

Oh, dear Lord, that is tiresome.

And Al Quaeda, which was, of course, manufactured by the CIA, is secretly in league with the US??? :thumbs_do

Maybe the better course would be to just seal off Pakistan from the rest of the world and come back in 200 years and take the lid off...then just see who is in charge. How would that be?

 

[AmarFaisal]

First, I admire Benazir as a woman (and I did make clear I am not impressed by her as a politician).
Second, Why r u all talking abt Pakistan being broken into pieces??

There r worst things happening in countries around the world, so why would Pakistan just break down into pieces becoz of the death of Benazir? A leader who was not even on a position.

I did fear civil war at a certain extent but it's quiet clear the army will control like it has always done.

Unfortunately, by Benazir's death, the army has gotten stronger hold over the people.

 

[Woodrow]

First, I admire Benazir as a woman (and I did make clear I am not impressed by her as a politician).
Second, Why r u all talking abt Pakistan being broken into pieces??

There r worst things happening in countries around the world, so why would Pakistan just break down into pieces becoz of the death of Benazir? A leader who was not even on a position.

I did fear civil war at a certain extent but it's quiet clear the army will control like it has always done.

Unfortunately, by Benazir's death, the army has gotten stronger hold over the people.

the problem in Pakistan is there is a long history of people that did not want Pkistan to be formed in 1947 and have been hard at work trying to undo the Partioning of 1947. Any cause of turmoil, can be seen as a possible opening to bring that about. Then there has been the long tension with India. I doubt if India wants all of Pakistan, but it seems they want at least part of it. Along with Iran having long looked at getting old territory back any disunity within the country can be all that is needed.


Separatist movements from within the country would render the nuclear stock pile useless and just be an added expense for the country. It has been a deterrent to keep India out, but if there is a movement from within, the nukes will be of no use.

Also add in that the army is now tied up with internal affairs and will be hard pressed to handle an invasion from Iran.