Non Muslims and Quran

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Your are posting on an Islamic website. Even discussing these topics would lead to a ban in the end. If you are serious about this test, why not go to a Christian site or an Apostate one?

Besides, Muslims are not stupid, any more than Christians are. If there were "contradictions" in the Quran Muslim scholars would have noticed them years ago and explained why they do not appear to say what they appear to say. Just as Christians have done. There must be a reason for why the Quran gives two different lengths of time for the creation of the Earth. I do not know what it is, but I am not so stupid as to think it means the Quran contains an error.

007.054
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.​

Compared to,

041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

041.010
YUSUFALI: He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
SHAKIR: And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

041.011
YUSUFALI: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
SHAKIR: Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

041.012
YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
SHAKIR: So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.​

Presumably Muslims just think God can multi-task.

Hei Gou pleaaaaase, post one tranlation up in future. Wouldn't that just be simpler?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Here's my question:

Can you see how the example below is analogous to what's mentioned in the verse we are discussing?

If I said "People from Mumbai are the best people, enjoining what is right and condemning what is wrong" and then a gang of Mumbai citizens committed an act which resulted in many deaths, my statement would have been shown to be wrong; not totally wrong, but wrong in a significant respect.

It seems you have not understood the answer.

Quite right. That's why you're kindly explaining it to me.

The part where I say the verse is talking about true Muslims. True Muslims are those that follow the Quran and the Prophet (pbuh) both by thought and actions. The verse did not refer to the Muslims jc was talking about.

OK, so we've now got a lot of fake Muslims running about the place. Does the Qur'an make this clear in the verse? No. Then, it could be argued, the verse says something which is not true.

God swt clearly states that Muslims should follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh.

People are always telling me how clear the Qur'an is. I find this point of view baffling to say the least.

The interpretation also explains what God meant by "YOU".

That's just priceless. I'm so glad we've got humans to tell us "what God meant". Is god not able to express himself clearly?

Peace

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Hei Gou pleaaaaase, post one tranlation up in future. Wouldn't that just be simpler?

I think HeiGou's being very wise. At least he can't get accused of using the "wrong translation"!

Peace

 

[The Ruler]

I think HeiGou's being very wise. At least he can't get accused of using the "wrong translation"!

the translations of the Qur'anis quite accuratte although in some places, they harder than the others....like the shapeare lnguage n the language nowadys. :rollseyes

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Greetings,


I think HeiGou's being very wise. At least he can't get accused of using the "wrong translation"!

Peace

There is no wrong translation. I think you're confusing the Qur'an for the Bible.

 

[Cheb]

Greetings,

Here's my question:

Can you see how the example below is analogous to what's mentioned in the verse we are discussing?

It is NOT the same at all. You are specifically saying people from "Mumbai". God never said "Muslims". "Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah". This is a description of a true Muslim, not Muslims in general.
ANd that is why it is interpreted as such:
"You [true believers in Islāmic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islāmic Monotheism and all that Islām has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islām has forbidden), and you believe in Allāh"
Never did God say "You Muslims".

Quite right. That's why you're kindly explaining it to me.

I am trying my best.

OK, so we've now got a lot of fake Muslims running about the place. Does the Qur'an make this clear in the verse? No. Then, it could be argued, the verse says something which is not true.

See above. It DOES make it clear.

People are always telling me how clear the Qur'an is. I find this point of view baffling to say the least.

There are some parts which are not easy to understand. But we have interpretations and we have the Hadith to further guide us.

That's just priceless. I'm so glad we've got humans to tell us "what God meant". Is god not able to express himself clearly?

Peace

Maybe I used wrong wording there, but still, see above.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. God clearly explains the reasoning that the best people are those who believe in Allah, enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil i.e. uphold Islamic laws. So if someone is not following Islam, then they obviously don't fall under this verse because they don't forbid what is evil and enjoin what is good. It's not rocket science. Munafiqeen [those who outwardly profess Islam], Kafireen [disbelievers] and Faasiqeen [sinful rebellious immoral people] do not fall under the statement of this verse - it is only those who meet this criteria of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil. If we do that, then without a doubt, we are the best nation. The companions, the immediate addressees of the verse, did exactly that.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

thats what im saying Adl whats the problem?

 

[justahumane]

Oh My dear Friend i apologize it seems that you dont have the correct translation.

The people who Allah swt is referring to is not Muslims It is:

You [true believers in Islāmic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islāmic Monotheism and all that Islām has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islām has forbidden), and you believe in Allāh. And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fāsiqûn (disobedient to Allāh - and rebellious against Allāh's Command)

So Where is the Question j/c?

Brother Mahdisoldier, the problem is that all the so called islamic scholers tend to believe that they know what was in ALLAH's mind while giving the verses of holy quran. While ALLAH has himself said many times that holy quran is easy to understand.(19:97/44:58/) Was he lying? definetely NO. So whats the use of cooking up stories about what was in ALLAH's mind?

So U ppls may twist the translation, but its no secret that ALLAH is addressing to muslims of that time. No where he has stated that he is speaking to only a group of muslims. This is only ur own misinterpretation that he was speaking to such and such ppls. But let me add that certainly muslims of that time would be meeting that criteria of being obidient to ALLAH. While vast majority of today's so called muslims are not like that. So can we assume that holy quran is not meant for them????? And can we assume that holy quran was time bound and not relevent today coz we dont have those kind of muslms around? and if there are some than they are natural exceptions which can be found in that vast society everywhere? no matter whether muslims or not?

Posted by brother Ansar
I don't see what all the fuss is about. God clearly explains the reasoning that the best people are those who believe in Allah, enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil i.e. uphold Islamic laws. So if someone is not following Islam, then they obviously don't fall under this verse because they don't forbid what is evil and enjoin what is good. It's not rocket science. Munafiqeen [those who outwardly profess Islam], Kafireen [disbelievers] and Faasiqeen [sinful rebellious immoral people] do not fall under the statement of this verse - it is only those who meet this criteria of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil. If we do that, then without a doubt, we are the best nation. The companions, the immediate addressees of the verse, did exactly that.

Very well said brother Ansar, but u must agree with me that ALLAH was refering to muslims of that time who were true believers indeed. Not to the rest ie Munafiqeen, Kafireen, and Faasiqeen. If we make two groups of ppls of those times than one group will consist of muslims whom ALLAH was talking to and rest will fall in second group, who are offcourse not muslims..............Now if Islamic claim of holy quran being the ALLAH's command for all times is true than obviously we can divide ppls of our time in two groups again. I dont think that anyone who believes in holy quran should have any objection with it. And no one should have any objection to my following claim.

All the noise of Islam being fastest growing religion is false, coz if we see in the light of holy quran, Islam may be termed as fastest shrinking religion with very few followers, majority being Munafiqeen and Faasiqeen. True muslims are rarely found like natural exceptions. This is my point of view about the present scenario of muslims, if someone differ and wants to add munafiqeens and fasiqeens in the ummah, than I m no one to object, but free to differ and blow a whistle, coz I m sure that its not a good sign. ALLAH knows the best.

And thanks brother czgibson for carrying forward the debate in the best possible way, lets hope that this debate bears fruit and make some ppls sit for a while and think.

 

[sargon]

Brother Mahdisoldier, the problem is that all the so called islamic scholers tend to believe that they know what was in ALLAH's mind while giving the verses of holy quran. While ALLAH has himself said many times that holy quran is easy to understand.(19:97/44:58/) Was he lying? definetely NO. So whats the use of cooking up stories about what was in ALLAH's mind?

The Quran is easy to understand if you read the whole thing without doubts clouding your mind through each verse. If you doubt it then you look for mistakes and create things. If you believe already then you're not actively trying to make something out of nothing, so the meaning becomes clear to you.

Scholars exist because they've dedicate they're lives. Every Muslim is like a scholar, but "scholars" really dedicate themselves to the message. Muslims that aren't scholars perform other duties for society. You can't be an engineer, doctor, and scholar all at once can you?

So if you have some trouble understanding the reasons behind why you should follow a law, then you can ask a scholar. The laws however are pretty clear. Enjoin good, forbid evil, pray, fast, etc... The five pillars.

So U ppls may twist the translation, but its no secret that ALLAH is addressing to muslims of that time. No where he has stated that he is speaking to only a group of muslims. This is only ur own misinterpretation that he was speaking to such and such ppls. But let me add that certainly muslims of that time would be meeting that criteria of being obidient to ALLAH. While vast majority of today's so called muslims are not like that. So can we assume that holy quran is not meant for them????? And can we assume that holy quran was time bound and not relevent today coz we dont have those kind of muslms around? and if there are some than they are natural exceptions which can be found in that vast society everywhere? no matter whether muslims or not?

I see no other way of interpreting it as Allah addressing true Muslims in any period of time in any area. Any true Muslims at that time in that area, that verse was for them. Any true Muslims in this time in these areas, this verse is for them/us.

A "state" is not an argument against this verse. We can enjoin good and forbid evil anywhere we go. If I see something bad it's my duty to Allah to go and fix it, we're fixers, helpers, Allah's servants.

It is sad to say that this specific period of time Muslims are going through a lot, and like mahadi said it's a bit difficult to setup an Islamic state if it keeps being colonized and destroyed from the outside and inside.

Very well said brother Ansar, but u must agree with me that ALLAH was refering to muslims of that time who were true believers indeed. Not to the rest ie Munafiqeen, Kafireen, and Faasiqeen. If we make two groups of ppls of those times than one group will consist of muslims whom ALLAH was talking to and rest will fall in second group, who are offcourse not muslims..............Now if Islamic claim of holy quran being the ALLAH's command for all times is true than obviously we can divide ppls of our time in two groups again. I dont think that anyone who believes in holy quran should have any objection with it. And no one should have any objection to my following claim.

All the noise of Islam being fastest growing religion is false, coz if we see in the light of holy quran, Islam may be termed as fastest shrinking religion with very few followers, majority being Munafiqeen and Faasiqeen. True muslims are rarely found like natural exceptions. This is my point of view about the present scenario of muslims, if someone differ and wants to add munafiqeens and fasiqeens in the ummah, than I m no one to object, but free to differ and blow a whistle, coz I m sure that its not a good sign. ALLAH knows the best.

And thanks brother czgibson for carrying forward the debate in the best possible way, lets hope that this debate bears fruit and make some ppls sit for a while and think.

No that verse is addressing all true Muslims. Does it say anything about a specific period of time? Why would you think it's for a specific period?

If you plant a tree and 80% of the apples go bad, yet the trees spread across the field, in the end you still have more good apples than 1 tree with 100% good apples. Bad apples in Islam is not an argument.

One thing I learned, judge both sides by the same argument. How many bad apples in America, Europe, Africa, China? The numbers are the same if not worse. How can an Islamic society fail if our entire life revolves around sacrficing personal desires* for Allah, to making things good, fixing, and helping?

* personal desires Personal desires are the the biggest, if not the only problem this world has. Whenever there's genocide it's always been out of hate, greed, or lack of thinking about Allah.

In twiste cases like Rwanda and the Nazi's, they believed they were "cleansing," but if they had listened to Allah they would have known how to judge people, how to punish, and peace would prevail.

So I hope your answer is cleared up now

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

All the noise of Islam being fastest growing religion is false, coz if we see in the light of holy quran, Islam may be termed as fastest shrinking religion with very few followers, majority being Munafiqeen and Faasiqeen. True muslims are rarely found like natural exceptions.

You don't know this. This is what you think based on the images that have been conveyed to you through the media - it is fallacious to make general statements about the Muslims based on such images.

 

[justahumane]

Salam Brother Sargon and Brother Ansar

I think that I have already shared my views on this subject and have nothing more to add. I may be wrong, but this is the way I think.

Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave. Nor I have anything against muslims, coz I m one who is more attatched to muslims rather than any other ppls.

The only point I always try to emphasize upon is that muslims are very much hypocritic when it comes to religion. And I think that u should agree with me. U can differ with me too, but I strongly feel that its fault and hypocricy of muslims that we dont see shariyah laws being enforced in any muslim country today, U ppls can blame anyone for this, but I wont agree with u ever. Thats it. Again ALLAH knows the best.

Regarding the verse in question, let me tell U that I have myself asked about the correct translation of that verse from not less than 2 scholers in last 2 days, and not surprisingly, both have told me that ALLAH is addressing to muslims, U can do this practical test for urself, anyone who wants, I m sure that no scholer is going to tell U that ALLAH is talking to only true muslims. But the moment U raise ur concern about this verse, all the misinterpretation will start flowing in.

Thanks.

 

[Cheb]

justahumane you seem to want to argue even though you have been proven wrong. The verse you stated NEVER says "Muslims", the verse states specific charactaristics of a true Muslims. I have read both the English and Arabic version of the verse and they both mean the same thing. If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. I wonder why you ask the question if you refuse to accept the answer regardless of its conviction.
Plus, if you do not need media reports then what do you need?
What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?

 

[Malsidabym]

The Quran is easy to understand if you read the whole thing without doubts clouding your mind through each verse. If you doubt it then you look for mistakes and create things. If you believe already then you're not actively trying to make something out of nothing, so the meaning becomes clear to you.

This is no way to search for the truth though, especially if you are new to a religion. The truth is that you should in fact question every verse you read in order to search for answers. You are talking about total blind faith. If you don't test what you learn, then when faced with questions later your knowledge won't stand up.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all.

Have you conducted a survey then, of all muslims in the world??

Maybe most Muslims you know are hypocrites, but you can't make a statement about all the Muslims in the world.

And what some anonymous 'scholar' says does not matter. What matters is the verse clearly establishes the criteria for who is included in it. They have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil and have faith in God. If someone doesn't meet that criteria, they are not included.

 

[YouAreLostSouls]

Wow , a person whos a christian. How can one believe that God died for human beings? God died for his own creation? i dont know wow eh.

Walakam salam

thats just my opinion

since the start of this thread, iv went through three pages so far, and each time anyone has asked questions regarding koran and other contradictive questions , u have ignored them and not even tried to answer them, do you know about your religion? why did you start the thread if you are incapable to answer questions regarding islam???????:heated:

 

[YouAreLostSouls]

The reason why i didnt give an answer is because the answer is in the Ayat that you mentioned. You just have to read it more carefully and understand it Brother. But its ok you dont want to understand it you reject it no problem.

just ansa the bloody questions!!!

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

^^^^Your user name is interesting.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

just ansa the bloody questions!!!

Which questions haven't been answered?

 

[j4763]

If the Quran is unchanged how come there are so many different translations floating around and why so many different sects?
Also how do we know that the scholars have got it right?