Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

[aadil77]

Aadil, I think you have not yet started Hinduism vs. Islam thread.

My point is very simple. Is not everything that is outside you an object to you - whether you are able to see the object or not? Like you can't see germs, but still it is an object because it is outside you - maybe it is inside your body also, but the “you” talked about is the subject - what you get when you say "I". If Allah is outside you then He is an object, is He not? Whether He is actually an object is another matter, but as far as you are concerned, He is an object. So if you worship Him and He is an object for you, then you are indulging in idol worship. How is it difficult to understand this?

my thread is awaiting approval and

what the hell are you on about? are you an object? living beings are not objects

and for your information you can see germs if you try to using the right equipment, but you cannot see Allah no matter how hard you try unless He wills

 

[syed_z]

Rubbish... 'science' is coming to no conclusion regarding God (or gods) at all, and probably never will and never can. What 'models of God' have supposedly been 'eliminated'? Point us to the research papers, please.



Go on then; it will need to be a long list. There are maybe, what, a couple of million scientists of assorted types in 'Europe and the West' at least? 'Large numbers' would be, what, a couple of hundred thousand of them maybe? If you are just thinking of the usual tired old list of Bucaille, Moore etc. (most of whom never actually converted anyway) you could no doubt find a list of just as many who became Wiccans or Scientologists.

Of course, many thousands of scientists have become muslims, just as many thousands have become Christians, and followers of the Dharmic religions, and agnostics, humanists and atheists - just as in any other sphere of life.

well go ask Francis Bacon , for he was one of your own...

If it makes you happy worshiping a piece of Stone, then i guess be it... not my problem, i was just telling the guy that Scientists are eliminating all kinds of models of god, because when they look in to the Universe and within themselves, they see hand of a creator, who cannot be made with ones own mind. Any thing made or any concept made in ones mind and then you draw a picture or carve it in to stone, is a so called god created by your own thoughts, and so how could it be real ? and what proof do you have , that it is the same that you created with your own hands , governs the whole universe... ?

Any sensible person would reject it... only fools would accept it, who don't use their reason.. and since your a Budhist , did Budha tell to worship him ? or make his idol and prostrate infront of him ?


May God guide you, and i pray for you...

 

[K.Venugopal]

So, according to you, if someone says that a lump of faeces is god, it becomes god. You just don't see the ridiculousness and fallacy of what you're saying.

The understanding is that all existence is one – not that faeces is God or God is faeces. In the understanding that all existence is one, such a God (who is separate from everything) does not exist – so where is the question of such a God being faeces or the other way round? What tells us, for example, a bar of gold and a lump of faeces is not the same is our consciousness working through our senses. But our consciousness can also work through understanding. If we understand that the nature of everything changes from moment to moment and yet there is something in everything, whether in faeces or gold, that does not change with time, then we would have understood the oneness of existence. A mind that has understood the oneness of existence is no longer fragmented by the like-dislike dichotomy of the sensual mind. Normally we like gold and shun faeces but when we reach to the higher understanding, we, while continuing to make out the difference between gold and faeces, are not fragmented by that difference.

The inherent problem Hindus have here is that they conceive God to be an object, and cannot go beyond that taught constraint of theirs, because for centuries Hindus have carved their gods with their own hands and then worshipped them. To them, god cannot be anything but an object.

Whatever God is, Islam and many other religions, including those in Hinduism, teach that God is an object outside us. But there are religions in Hinduism that teach that God is not outside us – God is not an object. They teach that we are God, that is, God is the subject. So we can say that it is Islam that conceives that God is an object, not Hinduism.

That centuries old tradition and belief is fully imbibed in them, and their minds cannot ask whether that is actually the truth or not, is it possible to worship an All Powerful God who is not mixed up in His creation?

Whether mixed up with His creation or not and whatever God actually is, Muslims who believe that God is outside them can only worship God as an object.

Nor will they ask, how come our (Hindus') god couldn't even separate himself from his creation, and distinguish himself from them?

Why would God want to separate Himself from his so-called creation when it is nothing other than God Himself? In the reality beyond duality that is the oneness of existence, there is no creation and there is no creator God.

This idea now, of god being what you want him to be, you yourself are creating that idea of what you want him to be, in your mind.

In non-duality the wanting of anything disappears – so where is the question of wanting God to be this or that?

In non-duality, the creator god is arises from Brahman, so the creator god to you, is not only an object, but also was also created.

In non-duality, there is only the oneness of existence. The story of creator-God and creation, whichever way, is a dualist’s story. Some might choose to believe the Islamic version; some might choose to believe the

What kind of a creator is it that was created from something himself?

Please note that this positing of a creator is a dualistic story.

The minute you yourself, or any person, starts defining what is or isn't God, that entity is not God, because you have created his definition yourself.

Yes, you could say that. All our definitions fall short of the reality but oft times they are our best guide.

Muslims do not make up their definition of God to suit themselves, and we do not define God. We believe in Him as He has defined Himself:

I have no quarrel with your belief.

"Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, Who is in need of none and of Whom all are in need
He begets not, nor was He begotten
And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (Qur'an, Chapter 112)

Why did He specifically say “He begets not”? Please tell me the background.

I invite you to accept and believe in God as He has defined Himself. Peace.

A strange request considering that even after the proposed acceptance, God continues to be a belief. Why should I go from the certainty of self-realization to a mere belief in God?

 

[syed_z]

Whatever God is, Islam and many other religions, including those in Hinduism, teach that God is an object outside us. But there are religions in Hinduism that teach that God is not outside us – God is not an object. They teach that we are God, that is, God is the subject. So we can say that it is Islam that conceives that God is an object, not Hinduism.

Well then HInduism contradicts it self... because HInduism says he is an Object outside of us and then teach God is not outside ? So who is God if we are God ?

No Islam says...

None is Like Him (Surah Ikhlas)


Object is matter, tangible, something can be seen. God in Islam is not like that...

 

[syed_z]

Whether mixed up with His creation or not and whatever God actually is, Muslims who believe that God is outside them can only worship God as an object.

Why would God want to separate Himself from his so-called creation when it is nothing other than God Himself? In the reality beyond duality that is the oneness of existence, there is no creation and there is no creator God.

God would separate because otherwise it would not distinguish Him that He is God, for God is some One who is defined as Unique!

 

[K.Venugopal]

what the hell are you on about? are you an object? living beings are not objects

Yes living beings are not only objects but also subjects. But another living being, outside of you the subject is for you an object.

and for your information you can see germs if you try to using the right equipment, but you cannot see Allah no matter how hard you try unless He wills

Yes, if we use the right equipment, we can see germs. Likewise, if we use our equipment of understanding, we can see Allah – meaning we can understand the concept of Allah. And we will understand that Allah is none other than what we are.

 

[syed_z]

Why did He specifically say “He begets not”? Please tell me the background.

i.e who is free of the imperfection inherent in the concept of begetting a child as an extension of ones own being.

Does Hindu god's have children ?

 

[K.Venugopal]

Well then HInduism contradicts it self... because HInduism says he is an Object outside of us and then teach God is not outside ? So who is God if we are God ?

Please remember that Hinduism is not a single religion but is a civilizational culture that also contains many religions. So there is no contradiction. Some religions in Hinduism say that God is outside and therefore the object and some say that God is inside and therefore the subject.

Object is matter, tangible, something can be seen. God in Islam is not like that...

God may not be like that but God in Islam is placed outside and therefore is an object to what we are – the subject. Even if you can’t see the Islamic God, you can understand Him, can’t you? Understanding is a form of seeing. When you get to higher understanding, you would see that you are God – God is not someone outside you.

 

[syed_z]

God may not be like that but God in Islam is placed outside and therefore is an object to what we are – the subject. Even if you can’t see the Islamic God, you can understand Him, can’t you? Understanding is a form of seeing. When you get to higher understanding, you would see that you are God – God is not someone outside you.

Allah hides Himself behind the Veil of creation, we could be close to Him or be far from Him, but can't be like Him... for Quran says clearly...

None is Like Him (Surah Ikhlas)

If you begin to think that You Yourself are God, then You would not worship God rather you would Worship yourself... and the Self within Mankind is Evil (i.e Nafs) i.e Ego and Pride which will take us far from Him... so thats ok if you decide to believe... however, that is not something in Islam...

and We cannot Understand Him fully... for He is Beyond the Reach of Human Perception...

 

[K.Venugopal]

i.e who is free of the imperfection inherent in the concept of begetting a child as an extension of ones own being.

Going by Dr. Zakir Naik’s talk on the subject, I understand that this “begetting a child” was used to mean that God did not have sex with any woman to have a child, like the Muslims think it is implied in the case of the birth of Jesus as explained in the Bible. Is this the background for Allah saying He did not begat?

Does Hindu god's have children ?

Oh yes, lots of them. Remember Hindu Gods also moved on earth among humans.

 

[syed_z]

Going by Dr. Zakir Naik’s talk on the subject, I understand that this “begetting a child” was used to mean that God did not have sex with any woman to have a child, like the Muslims think it is implied in the case of the birth of Jesus as explained in the Bible. Is this the background for Allah saying He did not begat?

well in case of Jesus or any Son that mankind might attribute to God...

Oh yes, lots of them. Remember Hindu Gods also moved on earth among humans.

well that shows they are weak, as it is an extension of ones own being.... and if gods can give birth, then they are also gods whom they give birth to, then since they procreate , do they die as well ?

If they do die and share power, then they are weak, and God by definition can only be some one who is not weak... otherwise then he is not god... and are there also female gods in Hindus ?

 

[Insaanah]

When you get to higher understanding, you would see that you are God – God is not someone outside you.

How would you reconcile that belief with the following quotes from Hindu scriptures?:

UPANISHADS:

The following verses from the Upanishads refer to the Concept of God:

1.
"Ekam evadvitiyam"
"He is One only without a second."
[Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]1


2.
"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]2

You have parents


3.
"Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]3

If anyhting could be physically seen of god (which would be you in your claim) it must be a likeness of him.


4.
The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:
"Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."
"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4

You can be seen.



THE VEDAS

Yajurveda

The following verses from the Yajurveda echo a similar concept of God:

1.
"na tasya pratima asti
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]5

If anything could be physically seen of god , it must be image of him.


2.
"shudhama poapvidham"
"He is bodyless and pure."
[Yajurveda 40:8]6

You have a body, and have to defaecate impurities.


3.
"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."
[Yajurveda 40:9]7

Sambhuti means created things, for example table, chair, idol, etc.


What you've asserted above doesn't agree with the above quotes from Hindu scriptures, on almost every count.

Peace.

 

[aadil77]

Yes living beings are not only objects but also subjects. But another living being, outside of you the subject is for you an object.

Yes, if we use the right equipment, we can see germs. Likewise, if we use our equipment of understanding, we can see Allah – meaning we can understand the concept of Allah. And we will understand that Allah is none other than what we are.

stop with all this inner meaning spiritual crap, if you can't prove your point then don't make up some complicated drivel to explain nonsense, you're starting to sound like a christian trying to explain trinity

 

[Trumble]

stop with all this inner meaning spiritual crap, if you can't prove your point then don't make up some complicated drivel to explain nonsense, you're starting to sound like a christian trying to explain trinity

No, you 'stop' with your arrogant and ignorant disrespect for the beliefs of others. Why do you participate in 'comparative religion' when you clearly have no intention of trying to learn or understand anything outside of your own 'comfort zone'? Understanding does not imply agreement.

K.Venougopal is not 'making up' anything. If his explanations are too complicated for you that's hardly his fault; the concepts here do need a little effort to understand. Try putting some in.

 

[Lynx]

I really do not understand the Quranic instructions about not insulting other peoples’ Gods but by unfailingly saying that Islam is the only true religion, does the Quran do aught else but insult other religions?

Well I am not sure what you find insulting about thinking that a particular belief system is not true. You don't believe in Scientology do you? Are you insulting Scientology if you told people that it wasn't true?

Relatively only a few people look, wish to look or have the capacity to look beyond idols. The idols are for the masses – popular Hinduism. It must also be remembered that Vedanta (comprising the more subtle teachings of Hinduism) is not a promise to the masses but to individuals who are ready to plunge into those subtle depths.


Your “closer to God” phrase appears to miss the point that God is that which the believers believe and if the idol worshipper believes his idol is God, then he would not have reason to believe he is far from God. However, Islam offers no prospect of closing the gap between God and the believer whereas Hinduism is all about the believer (worshiper) becoming one with the worshipped entity.

Well I understand the point you're getting at but maybe it's my exposure to Western style religions that tempts me to say that what you describe is not really worshiping God but rather worshiping a shadow of God, and for most, not even knowing that it's worshiping the shadow of God. To a follower of Islam or Christianity or Judaism their rituals are one step closer to the 'real' God and maybe that sort of explains the mentality that western religions have towards idol worshiping faiths like Hinduism (and I am using Idol worship in it's loose and commonly used sense of the word). I mean the typical Muslim, even if he needs guidane by rituals or an 'idol' as you might put it, knows exactly what's behind that idol whereas the typical Hindu won't know and this limited knowledge seems to extend from the way hindus worship. I don't claim there's anything necessarily wrong with this just that there's a striking difference between what you describe and how Islam & Muslims are.

 

[Tyrion]

I would, of course, place the Buddha in exactly the same lineage, although while he discovered and embodied 'ultimate truth' his much deeper understanding enabled him to dismiss any association of same with God or gods which are, of course, just as illusory as everything else we conceive. I don't expect you to agree with that, of course!!

Hey Trumble,

Would you mind explaining exactly how you view Muhammad (pbuh)? I don't know too much about Buddhism, so if you could flesh out your ideas on the matter I feel like I could learn something

(I'm trying really hard to get back on topic, and to get away from the Hinduism vs. Islam debate that seems to be taking place... )

 

[K.Venugopal]

God would separate because otherwise it would not distinguish Him that He is God, for God is some One who is defined as Unique!

Does God have an ego problem that He would want to distinguish Himself? God is distinguished and unique anyway because He is the only phenomenon that is eternal.

 

[Insaanah]

When you get to higher understanding, you would see that you are God – God is not someone outside you.

God is distinguished and unique anyway because He is the only phenomenon that is eternal.

If you are God, and he is the only phenomenon that is eternal, you are certainly not eternal.

You are contradicting yourself. God either is eternal, or isn't.

Also, if you are God, you have impurities in you that you excrete and you sin as well, so to you, god is one who sins and is impure as well.

Something is seriously wrong with this whole concept. It is full of errors, contradictions and quite frankly, defeats all common sense!

Peace.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Allah hides Himself behind the Veil of creation, we could be close to Him or be far from Him, but can't be like Him... for Quran says clearly...None is Like Him (Surah Ikhlas) If you begin to think that You Yourself are God, then You would not worship God rather you would Worship yourself... and We cannot Understand Him fully... for He is Beyond the Reach of Human Perception.

No one can be like Allah as described in the Quran for the simple reason that Allah is described as the creator. Actually, no one can be like any God described in any of the many religions of the world as creator. Please understand that the religions which say that we and God are one are actually talking about the oneness of existence in which there is no duality. In these religions there is no concept of God as a creator separate from His creation. Therefore it is only natural if Muslims and others think that it is stupid for man to consider himself as God. While it is not at all necessary for a Muslim or anyone to understand something if he does not wish to, those who are aware that there are religious or spiritual concepts beyond the duality religions are often tempted to write about it and its concepts and thereby, often when such views are expressed in forums participated in by people who believe that God and His creation are separate, there is bound to ensue a lot of criticism of each other’s position. The irony is that while the non-dualist can easily understand the position of the dualist because it is the path through which non-duality is attained, those at the duality level find it impossible to understand the non-dual position. This is particularly so of Muslims because free thought on these lines are frowned upon.

and the Self within Mankind is Evil (i.e Nafs) i.e Ego and Pride which will take us far from Him... so thats ok if you decide to believe... however, that is not something in Islam...

The self you are talking about is the smaller self or ego and all religions warn us about its pitfalls. This self is not the Self or the higher self spoken about as being one with God in the non-dual religions.

 

[K.Venugopal]

If you are God, and he is the only phenomenon that is eternal, you are certainly not eternal.

Yes. But there is something in us, called soul or essence or simply life, that is indeed eternal and one, therefore, with God.

You are contradicting yourself. God either is eternal, or isn't.

God is eternal or whatever it is that is eternal may be called God, Allah, Brahman, Life, Consciousness, Soul etc. When that which is the formless eternal takes on forms, the drama of existence is enacted. You might to call this “taking on of forms” as creation. But strictly speaking it is not creation because creation implies the coming into being of a new phenomenon. Also, the eternal does not loose its eternalness when it chooses to take on ephemeral forms. Because the “taking on of forms” is not a creation but only a projection. The Sanskrit word shrishti is often translated as creation but actually it means projection. Someone used the phrase “shadow of Allah”. I like the phrase. Creation may indeed better be said the “shadow of Allah”.

Also, if you are God, you have impurities in you that you excrete and you sin as well, so to you, god is one who sins and is impure as well.

Look, excretion, dung etc are not per se evil, are they? They are all part of existence each playing its role. Imagine what would happen to us if we eat and have constipation. Since you believe Allah created everything, did He not create excreta also or at least isn’t He responsible for the stuff call excreta? One thing cannot be another thing, let alone God be excreta. But that which is the substratum of everything is indeed God, include excreta. I am sorry if I hurt your sensibilities by putting it rather coarsely but I think this good-bad, like-dislike dichotomy is typical of the dualist mind which separates the Creator from His creation.

Something is seriously wrong with this whole concept. It is full of errors, contradictions and quite frankly, is ridiculous. Peace.

What is wrong is the inability of some religions to go beyond duality. This leads such religions to be more about loyalty, reward-punishment, fear-appeasement etc. More unfortunate, it leads to schizophrenic minds, which results in violence in the name of religion.