Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

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[FONT=&quot] In Sahih Muslim, the Hadith related by Mughirah ibn Shu'bah, #5326, says:[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "Sister of Harun", (i.e. Mary), in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born well before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger I asked him about that, and he said: "The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.""
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[FONT=&quot]When this Muslim went to speak with the Christians of Najran he was under the impression that Mary was the actual sister of Aaron. And when the Christians objected he could not explain the problem.
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Abraham had two wives and two children respectively...The jews came form Isaac and Arabs came from Ismail....So my Question..is this son of Abraham named Isaac is also known as Jesus pbuh as Jesus's name is Isaa or in English we say Isaac.?????????????????????????????????????????
 
Well I am not sure what you find insulting about thinking that a particular belief system is not true. You don't believe in Scientology do you? Are you insulting Scientology if you told people that it wasn't true?
I may or may not believe Scientology to be true. But I certainly must give allowance for the fact that there are many who think Scientology is true. I cannot suggest that their belief is not true even for them. This is what Islam seems to be suggesting all through. This is precisely why Mohammad or his followers destroyed the idols of other religions (not just in Mecca). Could they not have practiced their new religion without destroying the idols or beliefs of another religion?

Well I understand the point you're getting at but maybe it's my exposure to Western style religions that tempts me to say that what you describe is not really worshiping God but rather worshiping a shadow of God, and for most, not even knowing that it's worshiping the shadow of God. To a follower of Islam or Christianity or Judaism their rituals are one step closer to the 'real' God and maybe that sort of explains the mentality that western religions have towards idol worshiping faiths like Hinduism (and I am using Idol worship in it's loose and commonly used sense of the word). I mean the typical Muslim, even if he needs guidane by rituals or an 'idol' as you might put it, knows exactly what's behind that idol whereas the typical Hindu won't know and this limited knowledge seems to extend from the way hindus worship. I don't claim there's anything necessarily wrong with this just that there's a striking difference between what you describe and how Islam & Muslims are.
Hindus like explain their idol worship by saying that though electricity is everywhere, it is transformed to manifest specific benefits by use of electrical gadgets. Idols do not belittle God but express Him in manifest ways. There is much more to idol worship than ignorant groupings in the dark as suggested by iconoclasts.
 
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K.Venougopal is not 'making up' anything. If his explanations are too complicated for you that's hardly his fault; the concepts here do need a little effort to understand. Try putting some in.

err no, he's making it up as he's going along, there is nothing to understand his explanations are now nonsensical
 
Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Also, if you are God, you have impurities in you that you excrete and you sin as well, so to you, god is one who sins and is impure as well.
Look, excretion, dung etc are not per se evil, are they?
Note, I have not mentioned the word evil anywhere. I said impure. If you are God, and you sin, contain impurities as well as excrete them, then by your own definition, to you, god is impure and sins.

I reiterate, this whole concept is clearly and seriously wrong, for all who have even a few working brain cells, to see. It is full of errors, contradictions and quite frankly, defeats all common sense!

I only wish that you would use your logic and could see that!

Peace.
 
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How would you reconcile that belief with the following quotes from Hindu scriptures?:
These Vedic quotes have now become well known among the Muslims ever since Dr. Zakir Naik wrote about it. He has actually short-charged his audience by not telling the complete truth about these quotations because his mind has been unable to move beyond the Quranic duality-stage and the belief in One Countable God.

The following verses from the Upanishads refer to the Concept of God:
The One mentioned here is not talking about the countable One God of Islam. All through, the Vedic movement of thought is towards non-duality, culminating in the philosophical enquiries of the Upanishads. The One here simply means the essence of existence.

Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah." Of Him there are neither parents nor lord.
If you have understood what I have stated above, you would see that all your quotes are only Vedic expressions of the truth of oneness of existence. They are certainly not speaking of a creator Allah as sought to be passed off by Dr. Zakir Naik.

You have parents
At the dualistic level, all possibilities are given free play, including the consorting of the Gods.

Na tasya pratima asti" There is no likeness of Him.
Of course, the form is not the formless, only a projection thereof.

If anyhting could be physically seen of god (which would be you in your claim) it must be a likeness of him.
The formless takes on forms (avatar) and then we see Him. Please understand that the Vedas are not the only scriptural heritage of the Hindus and their spiritual heritage is not limited to just scriptures. Therefore even if a particular scripture does not support idol worship, it does not mean that idol worship is not part of Hindu heritage.

The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:"Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam." His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye
The formless cannot be imagined. It is precisely for this reason that idol worship was introduced by the Hindus. It might surprise you to know that the most well known of the non-dualists in Hinduism, Adi Shankaracharya, himself introduced idol and temple worship in many parts of India. This proves the formless was given form (or had taken form) so that the formless could be approached by the common minds which might find it difficult to conceive of the formless.

You can be seen. "shudhama poapvidham"He is bodyless and pure
Again, saying that in oneness of existence the formless abides.

You have a body, and have to defaecate impurities
Tell me, Insaan, who are you really? Are you, for example, your hands? No. You are not your hands. Your hands belong to you. So who is this you? Seek to find out and you will see that you are not even your body, your name etc. You are actually that formless One. This is the meaning of positing that you are God.

"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti. Sambhuti means created things, for example table, chair, idol, etc.
These verses only indicate that the pilgrim is encouraged to go forward with his pilgrimage till he discovers that what he has been seeking to worship is none other than what he himself is. Islam stops at Allah and doesn’t permit the pilgrim to proceed further. The Vedas prompt us to go beyond the realm of duality into the realms of non-duality.

What you've asserted above doesn't agree with the above quotes from Hindu scriptures, on almost every count. Peace.
The Vedas have reached a level the Quran does not even attempt to. But that does not mean that the Vedas propagate the annihilation of the dualists who are idol worshippers, unlike what the Quran propagates.
 
Woooaah, even twisting what is clearly stated in your own scriptures to suit yourself!

If you sink that low, then I have nothing else to say to you.

It is clear your agenda is not to learn but to propagate your own erroneous, contradictory beliefs, in whatever way you can, and you will stop at nothing to do that.

Peace.
 
Woooaah, even twisting what is clearly stated in your own scriptures to suit yourself!

If you sink that low, then I have nothing else to say to you.

It is clear your agenda is not to learn but to propagate your own erroneous, contradictory beliefs, in whatever way you can, and you will stop at nothing to do that.

Peace.

This is one place where I don't mind them stating their beliefs, the more they talk about it, the more convoluted and patently erroneous, they actually give you ammo that you didn't know of, like the worship of phallus-- it just gets better and better doesn't it? Dung, rats, phallus, caste system, multi colored gods-- I don't know who you can convince of that-- but it has certainly been very enlightening!
 
Note, I have not mentioned the word evil anywhere. I said impure. If you are God, and you sin, contain impurities as well as excrete them, then by your own definition, to you, god is impure and sins.
The “I” that each one of us is, is God. I am not my body or name. “I” am the eternal essence of reality, am the life that enlivens. So God is not impure but that does not mean that God has nothing to do with the so-called impure. Excreta may be considered impure but that does not mean it is not beneficial. When you are sick and go to the hospital, one of the first tests they want to do is a stool-test. So even excreta helps us provided we have a mind to co-opt it. Fortunately, medical science does not pass value judgements and has not excluded excreta from its scheme of things.

I reiterate, this whole concept is clearly and seriously wrong, for all who have even a few working brain cells, to see. It is full of errors, contradictions and quite frankly, defeats all common sense! I only wish that you would use your logic and could see that! Peace.
I would equally forcefully reiterate that unless Muslims get to understand the concept of non-duality, in which event they would become peaceful Sufis, Muslims’ thinking would be captive to the limitations of dualistic thoughts.
 
Woooaah, even twisting what is clearly stated in your own scriptures to suit yourself! If you sink that low, then I have nothing else to say to you.It is clear your agenda is not to learn but to propagate your own erroneous, contradictory beliefs, in whatever way you can, and you will stop at nothing to do that.Peace.
Hinduism is not restricted to one scripture and Hindus have the choice of many scriptures. Hindus also have the choice to understand his scriptures from his own point of view for it is meant to be that way. All scriptures have many layers of meaning written into them and we can grasp it at the level we are comfortable. Why, with just one scripture, have not Muslims many schools of thought? Therefore please do not appear to imply that Hindus must stick to a particular scripture of your choice and interpret it as the ace Muslim scholar Dr. Zakir Naik interprets it, particularly when the good Doctor puts his blinkers on while on the subject of non-duality.
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1354191 said:
the more they talk about it, the more convoluted and patently erroneous, they actually give you ammo that you didn't know of, like the worship of phallus-- it just gets better and better doesn't it?

True...

τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1354191 said:
I don't know who you can convince of that--

Only someone without a brain cell or two...

τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1354191 said:
but it has certainly been very enlightening!

And entertaining at that! I've had a few good laughs along the way!

They go from idol worship to thinking that they are god, and telling us that we should believe that we are god too!
 
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Only someone without a brain cell or two...



And entertaining at that! I've had a few good laughs along the way!

They go from idol worship to thinking that they are god!


More money for me and you between the PCN and the quetiapine..

:w:
 
Yeah, why wouldn't you? Just because someone is not Muslim does not mean they're not intelligent. Intellect is measured in intellect, not what religion or sect you follow.
 
I love how you try to portray it in complicated words...............;D

Alright, and? Everyone does it, perhaps you should become more observant. It's a process among all religions of portraying your religion as the correct one, and preaching it as such. There is no difference between Muslim marketing, and Hindu marketing, other than the fact that it's two different religions being marketed as holy. In retrospect, the same tactics are used to bait potential converts in, such as combining scientific "facts" with a mention of worshiping the one true God and being saved from the hellfire, etc.
 


True...



Only someone without a brain cell or two...



And entertaining at that! I've had a few good laughs along the way!

They go from idol worship to thinking that they are god, and telling us that we should believe that we are god too!

Sorry, but Muslims telling people they should worship Allah has absolutely no difference from someone else saying you should worship yourself, or some form of Pagan Gods. Objectively, all religions are in the exact same position when it comes to proving the existence of their said deities, and Islam is no exception. Neither is Christianity, or Hinduism, etc. Since their is no yardstick to measure up the claims of organized religion, unfortunately, leads me to take the claims of religious "fact" with a grain of salt.

Best regards.
 
The “I” that each one of us is, is God. I am not my body or name. “I” am the eternal essence of reality, am the life that enlivens. So God is not impure but that does not mean that God has nothing to do with the so-called impure. Excreta may be considered impure but that does not mean it is not beneficial. When you are sick and go to the hospital, one of the first tests they want to do is a stool-test. So even excreta helps us provided we have a mind to co-opt it. Fortunately, medical science does not pass value judgements and has not excluded excreta from its scheme of things.

I would equally forcefully reiterate that unless Muslims get to understand the concept of non-duality, in which event they would become peaceful Sufis, Muslims’ thinking would be captive to the limitations of dualistic thoughts.


We do appreciate you taking the time to clarify any misconceptions about your beliefs. Do not view this as an opportunity to promote your beliefs. We do have a forum rule that we will not tolerate the promoting of any religion other than Islam.

We are interested in mutual understanding and peaceful dialog, but please refrain from trying to convince our non-Hindu members to accept Hinduism.

I am certain it is your intent to remove any erroneous concepts we may have, just as we are interested in you learning the facts about us and not the media propagated misconceptions. But, keep in mind there is a very thin line that separates clarification from promoting. Please do not feel offended if I sometimes point out your words are drifting very close to promoting Hinduism as they do in this most recent post.

You are appreciated as a fellow human being sharing the same ride we all travel upon this sphere called earth. But, remember we do not and will not believe the same faith you do. You have your religion, I have mine and I shall not worship that which you worship.
 
We do appreciate you taking the time to clarify any misconceptions about your beliefs. Do not view this as an opportunity to promote your beliefs. We do have a forum rule that we will not tolerate the promoting of any religion other than Islam.

We are interested in mutual understanding and peaceful dialog, but please refrain from trying to convince our non-Hindu members to accept Hinduism.

I am certain it is your intent to remove any erroneous concepts we may have, just as we are interested in you learning the facts about us and not the media propagated misconceptions. But, keep in mind there is a very thin line that separates clarification from promoting. Please do not feel offended if I sometimes point out your words are drifting very close to promoting Hinduism as they do in this most recent post.

You are appreciated as a fellow human being sharing the same ride we all travel upon this sphere called earth. But, remember we do not and will not believe the same faith you do. You have your religion, I have mine and I shall not worship that which you worship.

Yep, same here. I will not worship what you worship, nor do I want any traces of Islam in my government or education system like the Muslims are trying to force through in Canada right now. Muslims don't own the world.
 
Hello everyone,

What I want to know is, as nonbelievers, how do you explain Muhammad, and the Quran? If you claim it to be his word, why is that? What motives were there? What about all the signs that point to his sincerity? I’m really interested in your responses, and my intention here really is to learn. I apologize in advance if this question has already been tackled in the past, and I hope my post was clear. :p

Especially when you consider these statements,

Addressing Abu Talib, the Holy Prophet of Islam remarked, `I swear by Almighty God that even if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, and in return, demand of me to quit the propagation of Islam and pursuance of my divine aim, I will never do what they want me to. I am determined to carry on my duty toward God to the last moment of my life, even if it means losing my life. I am strongly determined to attain my goal'.


THE QURAYSH TRY TO BRIBE THE HOLY PROPHET
The infidel Quraysh imagined that the Prophet had material or sensual ambitions and that through such ambitions they would be able to induce him to stop his propagation of Islam. With such an intention, they went to him and said, `If you demand money and wealth, we will make you the wealthiest man among all Arabs. If you are interested in lordship and position, we will make you our absolute chief. If you like sovereignty, we will make you our own sovereign. If you are not able to get over the indisposition you yourself call revelation, we will have the best physican treat you - provided that you quit the propagation of your faith, not create dissension among the people any longer, and not denounce our gods, our thoughts, and the beliefs of our ancestors'.

In answer to those ignorant people, the Holy Prophet said, `I am neither interested in wealth, nor in lordship nor sovereignty. The One God has assigned me as a Prophet and granted me a Book. I am a Messenger of God and my mission is to warn you of God's severe punishment and give you the tidings of God's reward for the faithful. I have performed my duty. If you follow my instructions, you will achieve prosperity and salvation, and if you refuse to believe in my faith, I will be persistent and resistant until God passes a judgment between me and you'.

Everybody knows about the condition of Muhammad Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam and the dire poverty he lived his life in. Would'nt it then be obvious that he could have asked the Quraish for anything he wanted and they would have given in to him. The simple question is, Why did'nt he??

If only people would ponder just a little bit.
 
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Sorry, but Muslims telling people they should worship Allah has absolutely no difference from someone else saying you should worship yourself, or some form of Pagan Gods. Objectively, all religions are in the exact same position when it comes to proving the existence of their said deities, and Islam is no exception. Neither is Christianity, or Hinduism, etc. Since their is no yardstick to measure up the claims of organized religion, unfortunately, leads me to take the claims of religious "fact" with a grain of salt.

Best regards.


Ok, you got to this conclusion on your own.

To inform how your conclusion doesn't make sense. pardon my saying.

To believe in Allah, the free of all imperfections means to accept everything from Him, the commands, etc...
And worship, worship in Islam is not restricted to rituala only, etc.. It is everything we do and say, it must be in accordance to the reviliation. Some acts are more rewarding than others, etc.

Our understsaning of God comes from teh Qur'aan and the Sunna. Explain to me how can worshiping something with need be teh same as worshiping Allah who is free of need? We Muslims can trace back NOt only the Qur'an, but the hadeeths too, through the chain of narrations.

ANy questions regarding Kab'ah, please ask.
 
I do not look at my religion as a believe or faith. I may say that my religion is Advaita (non-duality) and is one of the many religions extant in Hinduism, which could more rightly be called a civilizational culture. Be it as it may, for me religion is not a thing that requires believe or faith. Religion is a teaching that exposes us to our higher possibilities and the teachings may contain techniques or indications for attaining to those higher possibilities. Why need believe or faith come in? The understanding of the oneness of existence would cause one to lift oneself above the problems of the dualistic civilization and would enable one to be a cause of harmony rather than disharmony.

OK let me ask you a few questions.Hindus worship the Idols and they say these idols are known as avatars.Yet hindus believe in One God called Bramah.So my question is,why don't you worship this One God?

Hindus scriptures are written in sanskrit and not all hindus know sanskrit and not all hindus read it except those who are bron as Brahmins or shall i say those born in the higehst cast.So how can the Hindus know about their religion if they do not practise their religion according to their scripture.

Hindusims practices cast descrimination as some cast can read the scripture,some can only listen and some can do neither...Who are these Hindu people to control and judge who can listen and read the scripture?God is for everyone and God did not create man from leg,or from head of from hand as hindus believe...

We created man from an extract of clay.
Then We made him as a drop in a place of
settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the
drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing,
and blood clot), thenWemade the alaqah into
a mudghah (chewed substance)... 1 (Qur’an,
23:12-14)
 

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