Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

[glacier456]

just pointing out to you that even if you were handed the measurement tool and the guide book to use it. You still would not recognize it, acknowledge it exists or understand how to interpret the results. It would be like telling a mole he is on a moutain top at 6,000 feet above sea level and he would say prove it and he would fail to see that a baraometer could be used to verify the elevation.

You need to know the measuring devices to use and how to use them to understand any emperical verification of religious belief. You would not recognize any such measuring tool and would be unable to understand the results of such.

It's spelled "mountain", "barometer", and "empircal". Know how the words are spelled before you lecture someone on it.

How would you assume I wouldn't understand it? You obviously don't know what you're talking about and are grasping at straws in shifting the burden back to me, because like I said, you cannot answer my challenges. You have done this 3 times now.

I'm going to witness you dodging the question, again, in the next 5 minutes or so.

 

[glacier456]

I have like many posters here have - you didnt answer the question?

Uhhh, no? Go back and read the posts, chap. You didn't address my posts. Thanks.

 

[Zafran]

And you are ignorant of me and my knowledge. I have studied Islam in schools, I have read hadiths, the entire Quran, been in mosques, debated with Muslims, etc. It's easy for you to claim I'm ignorant when you don't even know me and what I'm all about.

I have studied Islam inside out, it's followers, however, cannot provide evidence for the assertions they espouse.

Give me a break - you probably just googled it for a weekend and think you know everything about Islam - as if - Can you give us some empirical evidence for this as well?

 

[glacier456]

seems like you cant prove your granny times 100 existed with empirical evidence - we are still waiting for you to do it.

Trust me your like the 100th person to come here with this fallacy - the rest were smart enough to know that this criteria doesnt work - you must be the first not to!

You're proving my very point the more you post.

Stop shifting the burden of proof to me with unrelated topics. Can you actually prove what you say? Can you stand up to my challenge? All you posters here are doing is going completely out of dodge by shifting the burden of proof to me with just ridiculous comparisons.

Prove your assertions that you people make, or else I will declare victory in this debate.

 

[glacier456]

Give me a break - you probably just googled it for a weekend and think you know everything about Islam - as if - Can you give us some empirical evidence for this as well?

You are stupid. You know nothing of me, and I have won this debate.

You can't prove anything you say, so you shift the burden to me. You guys are such losers DDD

 

[Zafran]

Uhhh, no? Go back and read the posts, chap. You didn't address my posts. Thanks.

Me ole Chap you said some documnets tell you about your times 14 granny - you havent given empirical evidence - Its like me telling you God exists because the bible says so. Thats not empirical evidence - so I'm still waiting for you to give me some empirical evidence for your granny times 100. Capice?

 

[Zafran]

You are stupid. You know nothing of me, and I have won this debate.

You can't prove anything you say, so you shift the burden to me. You guys are such losers DDD

Have you got any empirical evidence for that as well LOL?

 

[Woodrow]

Yep, same here. I will not worship what you worship, nor do I want any traces of Islam in my government or education system like the Muslims are trying to force through in Canada right now. Muslims don't own the world.

Yep, same here. I will not cease to worship what you do not worship, nor do I want any traces of Agnosticism/Atheism in my government or education system like the Agnostics are trying to force through in in the USA right now. Agnostics don't own the world.

 

[Samiun]

Hai Glacier, if you studied "more Islam than the other guy" then....:

List me 99 names of Allah S.W.T.
How many prophets are an obligation to know and who are they?
What's the prophet Muhammad S.A.W.'s full name?
Who was his(S.A.W.) companions? List me all their names.
How many chapters are there in the Al-Quran?
Who was the four imams and who did they study under?
What is the five pillars of Islam?

 

[aadil77]

You are stupid. You know nothing of me, and I have won this debate.

You can't prove anything you say, so you shift the burden to me. You guys are such losers DDD

oh you won your little debate ;D

what are you like 15 years old? you silly boy

 

[Sister Unknown]

And you are ignorant of me and my knowledge. I have studied Islam in schools, I have read hadiths, the entire Quran, been in mosques, debated with Muslims, etc. It's easy for you to claim I'm ignorant when you don't even know me and what I'm all about.

I have studied Islam inside out, it's followers, however, cannot provide evidence for the assertions they espouse.

No, no.. I said that you ar eignorant of Islamic teachings, not that you are an ignorant person. But we can provide you evidence of what I've claimed
: Chain of authority.

 

[K.Venugopal]

We do appreciate you taking the time to clarify any misconceptions about your beliefs. Do not view this as an opportunity to promote your beliefs. We do have a forum rule that we will not tolerate the promoting of any religion other than Islam.

We are interested in mutual understanding and peaceful dialog, but please refrain from trying to convince our non-Hindu members to accept Hinduism.

I am certain it is your intent to remove any erroneous concepts we may have, just as we are interested in you learning the facts about us and not the media propagated misconceptions. But, keep in mind there is a very thin line that separates clarification from promoting. Please do not feel offended if I sometimes point out your words are drifting very close to promoting Hinduism as they do in this most recent post.

You are appreciated as a fellow human being sharing the same ride we all travel upon this sphere called earth. But, remember we do not and will not believe the same faith you do. You have your religion, I have mine and I shall not worship that which you worship.

If your charge against me is that I am promoting Hinduism, I will not have any guilty feelings about it. But if your charge is that I am seeking to denigrate Islam or anything like that, I will be mighty sad, because that is the farthest thing from my mind. I love Muslims and I am consciousness that over a billion people believe in Islam and for them Islam is as true as daylight. So I do not consider myself as having any right whatsoever to denigrate Islam, just as I believe that Muslims have no right to denigrate my or other religions. If at all my writings appear to be questioning Islam, it is only that I am seeking to see Islam from a different context. Actually I have my own understanding of Islam. For your information, I consider myself as a great fan of Mohammad (though you may not see Mohammad in this friendly way because Mohammad is much more than a friend for you). I love him for what he was, his stupendous energy, his sense of humour and his all to human failings. My only objection is to the Islamic teaching that it alone is the true religion. In this I feel that Muslims do not understand the potential and possibilities of religion. That's all. So long as your permit me (it is your site) and so long as I have the energy and access to a computer (I am actually a fakir), I may continue to write a bit here and there on your forum. Ma’salam.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Explain to me how can worshiping something with need be teh same as worshiping Allah who is free of need?

Allah may be perfect, but are you and I perfect? Till we discover our perfection, our worship also cannot be perfect, though the external rituals may seem to be carried out perfectly.

 

[Woodrow]

If your charge against me is that I am promoting Hinduism, I will not have any guilty feelings about it. But if your charge is that I am seeking to denigrate Islam or anything like that, I will be mighty sad, because that is the farthest thing from my mind. I love Muslims and I am consciousness that over a billion people believe in Islam and for them Islam is as true as daylight. So I do not consider myself as having any right whatsoever to denigrate Islam, just as I believe that Muslims have no right to denigrate my or other religions. If at all my writings appear to be questioning Islam, it is only that I am seeking to see Islam from a different context. Actually I have my own understanding of Islam. For your information, I consider myself as a great fan of Mohammad (though you may not see Mohammad in this friendly way because Mohammad is much more than a friend for you). I love him for what he was, his stupendous energy, his sense of humour and his all to human failings. My only objection is to the Islamic teaching that it alone is the true religion. In this I feel that Muslims do not understand the potential and possibilities of religion. That's all. So long as your permit me (it is your site) and so long as I have the energy and access to a computer (I am actually a fakir), I may continue to write a bit here and there on your forum. Ma’salam.

And you are welcome to be here and post. I am pleased you have clarified your views. Communication and sincere intent is a good step to remove misunderstandings before they become a problem.

 

[K.Venugopal]

OK let me ask you a few questions.Hindus worship the Idols and they say these idols are known as avatars.

Idols are not avatars. Avatars happen when God comes down to earth in human form.

Yet hindus believe in One God called Bramah.

Hindus do not believe in one God. Different Hindus believe in different Gods and for them that particular God may be the only God. But all Hindus accept that all Gods are only expressions of the ultimate truth, which is the oneness of existence, often called variously, including Brahman.

So my question is,why don't you worship this One God?

If any Hindu believes in One God, whatever, there is absolutely no restriction on him in worshipping that One God. But the aim of the evolved Hindu mind is to go beyond worship and discover his oneness with God or existence.

Hindus scriptures are written in sanskrit and not all hindus know sanskrit and not all hindus read it except those who are bron as Brahmins or shall i say those born in the higehst cast.So how can the Hindus know about their religion if they do not practise their religion according to their scripture.

Most of the Hindu scriptures have been translated into almost all the regional languages. Do all Muslims know Arabic?

Hindusims practices cast descrimination as some cast can read the scripture,some can only listen and some can do neither...Who are these Hindu people to control and judge who can listen and read the scripture?God is for everyone and God did not create man from leg,or from head of from hand as hindus believe...

At one time, these allegations had some validity in them. But today all Hindus have access to all aspects of Hinduism. Hindus have survived their worst periods (remember, Hinduism is a very ancient religion) and always rejuvenated themselves. Some say this is a period of great of rejuvenation of Hinduism.

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), thenWemade the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance) (Qur’an, 23:12-14)

OK. I thought God said, let it be and it became.

 

[Sister Unknown]

Allah may be perfect, but are you and I perfect? Till we discover our perfection, our worship also cannot be perfect, though the external rituals may seem to be carried out perfectly.

Islam teaches that. However, we are not "saved" jsut because we're Muslims. We just try to live in the best way by that what Allah, the free of all imperfections, commands. And we do not know our destination either. I'm sorry, I do not know how did that equate to my question. All gods of theirs are in need. Allah is not, you got the difference..

 

[K.Venugopal]

Islam teaches that. However, we are not "saved" jsut because we're Muslims. We just try to live in the best way by that what Allah, the free of all imperfections, commands. And we do not know our destination either. I'm sorry, I do not know how did that equate to my question. All gods of theirs are in need. Allah is not, you got the difference..

One of Hinduism's most famous insights is that the wise express the oneness of existence in different ways. So all the so-called many Gods are only expressions by great masters of the one truth for the masses to grasp that elusive oneness of existence.

 

[Sister Unknown]

One of Hinduism's most famous insights is that the wise express the oneness of existence in different ways. So all the so-called many Gods are only expressions by great masters of the one truth for the masses to grasp that elusive oneness of existence.

Any who made that theory? Dear brother/sister in humanity, it sadens me to see tou say things about your creator of the heavens and the earth and all in between of them. he is free from all imperfections. Please do not make claims that people made up. All prophets (peace be upon them) preached oneNss of God. The prophets (peace be upon them) knew God. We do not, except that what He said of Himself.

 

[Predator]

Idols are not avatars. Avatars happen when God comes down to earth in human form.

.

Why does God need to come down to earth in human ?

Do you belive that Almighty God is so pure and holy that He is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings and feelings of human beings. In order to set the rules for human beings, He came down to earth as a human. This deceptive logic has fooled countless millions through the ages.

Let us now analyze this argument and see if it stands to reason.
The Creator prepares the instruction manual

Suppose I manufacture a video cassette recorder (VCR). Do I have to become a VCR to know what is good or what is bad for the VCR? What do I do? I write an instruction manual: "In order to watch a video cassette, insert the cassette and press the play button. In order to stop, press the stop button. If you want to fast forward press the FF button. Do not drop it from a height or it will get damaged. Do not immerse it in water or it will get spoilt". I write an instruction manual that lists the various do’s and don’ts for the machine.
Holy Qur’an is the instruction manual for the human being:
Similarly, our Lord and Creator Allah (swt) need not take human form to know what is good or bad for the human being. He chooses to reveal the instruction manual. The last and final instruction manual of the human beings is the Glorious Qur’an. The ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’ for the human beings are mentioned in the Qur’an.
If you allow me to compare human beings with machines, I would say humans are more complicated than the most complex machines in the world. Even the most advanced computers, which are extremely complex, are pale in comparison to the myriad physical, psychological, genetic and social factors that affect individual and collective human life.
The more advanced the machine, greater is the need for its instruction manual. By the same logic, don’t human beings require an instruction manual by which to govern their own lives?

Allah chooses Messengers:

Allah (swt) need not come down personally for giving the instruction manual. He chooses a man amongst men to deliver the message and communicates with him at a higher level through the medium of revelations. Such chosen men are called messengers and prophets of God.
Some people are ‘blind’ and ‘deaf’:
Despite the absurdity of the philosophy of anthropomorphism, followers of many religions believe in and preach it to others. Is it not an insult to human intelligence and to the Creator who gave us this intelligence? Such people are truly ‘deaf’ and ‘blind’ despite the faculty of hearing and sight given to them by Allah. The Qur’an says:
　
　
"Deaf, dumb, and blind,
They will not return (to the path)." [Al-Qur'an 2:18]

The Bible gives a similar message in the Gospel of Matthew:

"Seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." [The Bible, Matthew 13:13]

A similar message is also given in the Hindu Scriptures in the Rigveda.

"There maybe someone who sees the words and yet indeed does not see them; may be another one who hears these words but indeed does not hear them."

[Rigveda 10:71:4]



And God does not perform ungodly acts:The attributes of Almighty God preclude any evil since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act.

The Qur’an says:

"Allah is never unjust In the least degree." [Al-Qur'an 4:40]

God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God.

God does not make mistakes

God can make mistakes if He wants to, but He does not make mistakes because making a mistake is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says:

"…my Lord never errs." [Holy Qur'an 20:52]

The moment God makes a mistake, he ceases to be God.

God does not forget

God can forget if He wants to. But God does not forget anything because forgetting is an ungodly act, which reeks of human limitations and failings. The Qur’an says:

"…my Lord never errs, nor forgets." [Al-Qur’an 20:52]

God only performs Godly acts:

The Islamic concept of God is that God has power over all things. The Qur’an says in several places (Al -Qur’an 2:106; 2:109; 2:284; 3:29; 16:77; and 35:1):

"For verily Allah has power over all things"

Further, the Glorious Qur’an says:

"Allah is the doer of all that He intends." [Al-Qura'n 85:16]

We must keep in mind that Allah intends only Godly acts and not ungodly acts.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Any who made that theory? Dear brother/sister in humanity, it sadens me to see tou say things about your creator of the heavens and the earth and all in between of them. he is free from all imperfections. Please do not make claims that people made up. All prophets (peace be upon them) preached oneNss of God. The prophets (peace be upon them) knew God. We do not, except that what He said of Himself.

Dear Sister, While I respect your beliefs and also understand its value for you, I do not believe in any creator and therefore it would be unfair on your part to call the creator whom you believe in as my creator. In your believe system God may be perfect and all that. I have no wish to argue that He is not. So though I use the word God I certainly do not mean God as creator - I think it is only a teaching to give us solace and which we must grow out of if we are to attain to higher understanding. For me there is no understanding that has not come out of the consciousness of man and I do not believe that there is any God out there to whom we must be loyal and whom we must fear.

I may also add here that as far as religions and the concepts of God are concerned, there is no one teaching which is at the same time applicable to all. Religion is a subjective science and not an objective science and people are into subjective understanding at different levels and pace. Religious truths have always been expounded at different levels for everyone to pick up something.