Objective Evidence For Islam

[جوري]

Well, if you read the book, you would know what it`s about.

Indeed, I agree with that!

As for the qu`ran it claims to be the word of God, but provides no information that a human could not have known by himself at the time or anything that we know now that we didn`t at the time of its revelation.

This statement has no intelligible meaning to me, perhaps you can phrase it in a manner to suit my linear mind... as well answer my other two questions above!

all the best

 

[IHaveADream]

1. 
   ​
2. وَإِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَى عَبْدِنَا فَأْتُواْ بِسُورَةٍ مِّن مِّثْلِهِ وَادْعُواْ شُهَدَاءَكُم مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ ​

let's shift gears a little bit and rather than trap you in a lie, ask you what constitutes evidence in your book? what to you would convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that this book is from God and the message is true?

Well, to this I would make two points.

1. It should contain some knowledge that no man could have known at the time of its revelation but we know now. After all, anyone could write a book claiming that it was written by God.

2. It should not contain any inaccuracies, such as contradicting what we have proven with science.

 

[جوري]

Well, to this I would make two points.

1. It should contain some knowledge that no man could have known at the time of its revelation but we know now. After all, anyone could write a book claiming that it was written by God.

indeed, the quran has things not mentioned in any other revelations
A'ad, Thamud, Luqman, Erum, Ahl, Al-kahf, to name a few
interestingly there were no libraries or translators in Arabia, or wild excavations for them to have come down to lyrically and poetically with every verse!

2. It should not contain any inaccuracies, such as contradicting what we have proven with science.

I agree with that too, and feel free to bring the contradictions and inaccuracy cuts and pastes from the site of your choosing, and let's discuss it!

all the best

 

[IHaveADream]

indeed, the quran has things not mentioned in

I agree with that too, and feel free to bring the contradictions and inaccuracy cuts and pastes from the site of your choosing, and let's discuss it!

all the best

Haha... says the person with the huge copy and pasted posting. But for starters, it`s opposition to the theory of evolution.

 

[جوري]

As for your first point about the doctor, I would find it beneficial if you could clear up what you meant as well as how it relates to the discussion at hand.

It is an analogy are you familiar with those?

Seeing as how you are able to list so many books, why don`t you provide a point of evidence.

Why don't you provide a point for discussion?

all the best

 

[IHaveADream]

indeed, the quran has things not mentioned in any other revelations
A'ad, Thamud, Luqman, Erum, Ahl, Al-kahf,
all the best

Could you put forward a specific point that is now scientifically provable.

 

[IHaveADream]

ok, i will continue this discussion 2morrow, I have a test to study for.

 

[جوري]

Haha... says the person with the huge copy and pasted posting. But for starters, it`s opposition to the theory of evolution.

Actually it neither confirms nor denies it --the name of Allah swt 'al'bary' means the evolver, and certainly if you had read suret Al'waqi3a you'd actually read it, you'd have realized that it isn't beneath God to transoform us in the shape he desires.. evolution doesn't address whether or not 'God exists'.. interestingly if you'd like to discuss 'evolution' or speciation on a molecular biology level, that would just happen to be my area of expertise!

all the best

 

[جوري]

ok, i will continue this discussion 2morrow, I have a test to study for.

you go do that!

 

[جوري]

Could you put forward a specific point that is now scientifically provable.

why don't you do this for us, just so we are on the same level.. prove to us scientifically how we all came about from the existing 'scientific theories'
panspermia or abiogenesis, so that every few centuries cells appear ex-nihilo develop sentience, and take on a few base pairs of amino acids to develop perfectly functioning adapting noetic human beings, along with about a billion other species and then we'll put forward a scientifically provable point for God for you...

all the best

 

[جوري]

I believe the second part of your `sig`sums up what is in the mind of most muslims I have encountered, ``for the believer, no amount of proof is necessary``

Thanks for sharing that..
I find it a bit troubling that you concern yourself so with what goes in the mind of 'most muslims' that you've encountered? Why is that? Do you have a persecution complex? Do you believe that their beliefs influence you somehow? are their beliefs threatening to you on some level? Does it upset you that they believe in something which you don't?

we can by the same token classify you with your group of [(kanoods) since you read Arabic you should know what that means, but I digress] as you like your class of people seem to bring the same bromides to the table and think it rather groundbreaking...

a slave to the human condition in the beginning and the end it seems?

all the best

 

[جوري]

You've written quite a bit for someone who needs to study for a test, and rather make us reminisce of a former or perhaps existing Pakistani apostate who was always studying for test after a few carpet bombs and a run.. nonetheless, let's focus on what you have written:

Well, first of all, please stop the ad hom attacks and if you don`t think I have read the q`ran, well, then there`s no way of me convincing you.

I don't see any adhoms.. does anyone else? you claim you have read the quran, followed by and I quote:

Well, to this I would make two points.

1. It should contain some knowledge that no man could have known at the time of its revelation
------.

to which I have replied with A'ad, Thamud, Luqman, Erum, Ahl, Al-kahf, to name a few
interestingly there were no libraries or translators in Arabia, or wild excavations for them to have come down to lyrically and poetically with every verse!

and to which you had no comment..
Someone who had read the Quran, and as a devout would instinctively know those things amongst others, especially that many of them were unearthed as a modern day excavation.

i was raised a pakistani muslim and my mholve saab came on the weekend to watch me read it.

and this is a testament to what? writing Parti Québécois doesn't make me from Québec or a member of a separatist party!

as to Sayf Udeen, yes it is true, it has not convinced me that it is written by God and does not give any good reason to believe in the religion.

I am not say udeen, but pls humor me, why should we be aggrieved by this declaration?

If you wish to discuss the qu`ran, be my guest i am not prohibiting it in any sense.

What about the Quran would you like to discuss?

second of all I didn`t read it objectively at first, infact I read it as a devoted muslim

you must have a different defintion for devotion than the rest of us?.. we always assume devotion as an advanced step... even in the Quran, it is stated:

قَالَتِ الأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا قُلْ لَمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَكِنْ قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ وَإِنْ تُطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لا يَلِتْكُمْ مِنْ أَعْمَالِكُمْ شَيْئًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

​

--, "We believe." Say, "Ye, have no Faith, but ye (only) say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah, 'for not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

In the Quran, Allah swt is well acquainted with the human condition, so pls don't come under the false pretenses of devotion, I don't believe you know the meaning of the term!

all the best

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Have you read it objectively?

I tried to read it as objectively as any human can read any text.

What were you qualms since it clearly hasn't convinced you?

There's a long list of them, and I don't know if discussing them would take us off the topic.

You could say that about anything, and in most cases (inclusive of al-Qur'aan) it depends on the manner of one's mind in which they read it.

Some texts are convincing no matter what frame of mind you read them in.

I've been on these forums a fairly long time, and I've learned a lot since I've been here. I often see arguments of the following kind presented to non-Muslims:

If you'd read the Qur'an you'd believe in Islam.
If you'd read the Qur'an objectively you'd believe in Islam.
If you'd read the Qur'an properly you'd believe in Islam.
If you'd read the Qur'an in Arabic you'd believe in Islam.

You know the type of thing I mean.

This is similar to the no true Scotsman fallacy. Any objection to the truth of the Qu'ran can instantly be met with "you haven't read it properly" or "you haven't read it objectively".

In fact, many of us have read it from cover to cover, as sincerely as we can, and are simply not convinced. That is the plain truth of the matter.

Peace

 

[جوري]

In fact, many of us have read it from cover to cover, as sincerely as we can, and are simply not convinced. That is the plain truth of the matter.

Peace

That is indeed true..
It is the same when I hand out pamphlets on the ills of smoking and in spite of even surgeon general warning right on the box, there will always be a group of the population who are just simply not convinced.. then they go on citing such things as Milton Berle who lived to be 100, and always a cigar in his mouth...indeed in the Quran Allah swt states the following verses which I believe serve all man-kind equally:

74:38] Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

[SIZE=-1]73:10] And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity).[/SIZE]

88:21] Remind them, for thou art but a remembrancer, 88:22] Thou art not at all a warder over them.

[SIZE=-1]73:19] Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]44:59] So wait thou and watch; for they (too) are waiting.[/SIZE]


in other words, all the Quran can do for anyone is call them the signs of their lord, the naturally occurring ones and remind man-kind that each soul will have a taste of death.. and that is all that any Muslim can do for you (not you per se) but any athei/agnosto/ who comes with some apothegmatic pedantry!

all the best

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

That is indeed true..
It is the same when I hand out pamphlets on the ills of smoking and in spite of even surgeon general warning right on the box, there will always be a group of the population who are just simply not convinced.. then they go on citing such things as Milton Berle who lived to be 100, and always a cigar in his mouth...

It's a strange analogy to choose - surely the fact that there's addiction involved there makes it rather different?

Also, the evidence that smoking damages health is far more widely accepted than evidence supporting Islam.

indeed in the Quran Allah swt states the following verses which I believe serve all man-kind equally:

74:38] Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

[SIZE=-1]73:10] And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity).[/SIZE]

88:21] Remind them, for thou art but a remembrancer, 88:22] Thou art not at all a warder over them.

[SIZE=-1]73:19] Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]44:59] So wait thou and watch; for they (too) are waiting.[/SIZE]

These are simple assertions, very different from the claim that smoking damages health. Why should anybody believe them? They are supported by no evidence outside the text itself.

in other words, all the Quran can do for anyone is call them the signs of their lord, the naturally occurring ones and remind man-kind that each soul will have a taste of death.. and that is all that any Muslim can do for you (not you per se) but any athei/agnosto/ who comes with some apothegmatic pedantry!

That's a good way of looking at it, and I accept that when Muslims do this they are doing it from sincerely felt motives.

As an ex-Greek scholar and confirmed pedant, however, I would definitely prefer the bulky elegance of the word apophthegmatic.

But that's another story...

Peace

 

[Uthman]

Personally, I belive that there is convincing evidence in support of Islam that can be reached through purely objective study. One of these is, as czgibson made reference to earlier, the miraculous nature of the Qur'an (which I think is often so poorly explained to Non-Muslims that I can understand how the idea might seem ridiculous to them). Another piece of evidence is the sincerity of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - the fact that he could not have been intentionally lying nor is it plausible that he had been imagining these revelations.

What I have stated here is brief and I accept that they are not really backed up with explanation or detail and so I do not expect this alone to convince anyone. If I have time, then I will expand on these points further. I should add that these are not the only items of evidence, but I don't have time to go into that right now.

 

[GreyKode]

I would like to address IHaveADream's original question?
From the sounds of it you seem to have got past the point of believing in God i.e. youre not an atheist.(correct me if wrong)
Now based on the premise that you are a believer in God, before asking if Islam is true or not you should research all other religions and then ask yourself which one makes sense to you most.

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


It's a strange analogy to choose - surely the fact that there's addiction involved there makes it rather different?

Greetings,
There are several theories involving the term 'addiction', I have certainly seen many quit cold Turkey, mind over matter so to speak..
I find Medical Ethics to be so strangely in concert with Islamic laws, and it is part of the attraction.
and rule number one is always respecting patient autonomy. I certainly can respect for instance that a "Jehovah's witness' may refuse a blood transfusion even though it maybe life saving.. as well the concept of mentally competent isn't so tightly wound as to take away the rights of say folks with down syndrome who wish to have children etc... so no overall I don't think it a strange analogy.. I think it is very befitting for our purposes here...

Also, the evidence that smoking damages health is far more widely accepted than evidence supporting Islam.

I'll have to argue against that too based on stats alone.. How many quit based on the evidence of damage to health and addiction, whereas how many convert to Islam?
It is generally believed in medical practices that less than 5% of pts will quit because of the advise of a medical professional. Nonetheless those who do constantly advise and follow up and have a good rapport with their patience achieve the best results..

These are simple assertions, very different from the claim that smoking damages health. Why should anybody believe them? They are supported by no evidence outside the text itself.

I didn't give you a compendium of Quranic and Hadiths literature, I gave you the upshot of what I felt was most pertinent to this thread.. I can make an equally effective argument for any number of things.. the question after what I have quoted you, is what interest would I have converting anyone to Islam? I gain absolutely nothing!

That's a good way of looking at it, and I accept that when Muslims do this they are doing it from sincerely felt motives.

I accept that there are wonderful Muslims who are interested in the welfare of others, for me personally I'd rather fix the Muslims we do have than work on new ones..

As an ex-Greek scholar and confirmed pedant, however, I would definitely prefer the bulky elegance of the word apophthegmatic.

But that's another story...

I was indeed thinking of how many a visitors here come a fi a fi a fo a fumming with their new revelations, when I wrote that!

Peace

all the best

 

[IHaveADream]

K' I'm back.

I would like to address IHaveADream's original question?
From the sounds of it you seem to have got past the point of believing in God i.e. youre not an atheist.(correct me if wrong)
Now based on the premise that you are a believer in God, before asking if Islam is true or not you should research all other religions and then ask yourself which one makes sense to you most.

No, my family is muslim but I am atheist/agnostic

 

[IHaveADream]

Getting back on topic, Gossamer skye, you're speaking with such confidence that the qu'ran is true, but when I question it, all you do is try to say that I haven't read the qu'ran.

As for the point about evolution, it does contradict the qu'ran in a few ways, such as it's story of creation in a few days and that Adam and Eve (I know the names are a bit different, like adamalaysalam) were the firs two created.