Open Challenge to Christians

thats what makes you so special,
You will be judging by who has the most logic!

thats the benefits of an athiest heh
 
Greetings,

Go on then. Give me a shout when the debate gets underway and I'll judge it for you.

Peace
 
Assalam Alaikam

Well i dont think anyone accepted the challenge,

The challenge is depending on who has the least contradicitions in their Religious holy book and who has the most logic on modern science and other issues wins.

So i think PObook accepted it but PObook if you lose you must become a Muslim and understand Islam? Would you like to still accept? Some say this is Compulsion, Its not If they agree to it.

And relating to the Embryology i answered that question on bone and flesh in the previous posts.
 
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Salaam,

what do you mean by this ^ "Whoever wins the Debate They must convert to that Religion"


I do not see how that can be possible?

Now I was taught some 'conditions of shahada' aight which include:

Certainty - to have no doubt about anything confirmed in the Quran or Sunnah

Acceptance - by the tongue and the heart of whatever the Shahadah implies

Truthfulness - to say the Shahadah sincerely, with honesty, to actually mean it

now this is just some of something I been reading on, so you thinking winning or losing a debate will, INSTANTLY result in someone being Certain? or Accepting fully? Bro it took me 6 months of studyin and so forth to take my shahada. some people it takes a day some a week, but I fail to see how a christian who will debate will convert straight from taht, Allahu Alam it is possible, but I dont think it should be set as a condition or an article of loss.
 
I would be impresssed if a christian could answer all these questions psoed By Yusuf Estes

THE QUESTIONS NOBODY WANTS TO ANSWER -
Chaplain Yusuf Estes
What about the Bible? Who actually wrote it?
What was the original language of the Bible? (Hebrew? Aramaic? Koine Greek?)
NOTE: - The Bible was never in English during the time of any prophet (not even Muhammad) - because English did not exist until after 1066 AD!
Does the Bible exist in the original form anywhere on earth? (No)
Why does the Catholic Bible has seven (7) more books than the Protestant Bible?
Why do these two Bibles have different versions of the same books?
Why are there so many mistakes and errors are from the very first verse right up to the very last verse?
Why do 'Born Again Christians' teach concepts that are not from the Bible?
There is no word "Trinity" in the Bible in any version of any language
The oldest forms of Christianity do not support the 'born again' beliefs
Jesus of the English Bible complains about the 'crucifixion'
("Eli! Eli! Lama sabachthani? - My God! My God! Why have You forsaken me?") [Mk 15:34]
How can Jesus be the "Only Begotten Son" of John 3:16? When in Psalms 2:7 David is God's "Begotten Son?"
Would a 'Just' God, a 'Fair' God, a 'Loving' God -- punish Jesus for the sins of the people that he called to follow him?
What happens to people who died before Jesus came?
What happens to those who never hear this message?
What about innocent children who die although their parents are not Christian?
Didn't God create Adam from dirt? -- So, why does he need Mary to make Jesus?
And what about God?
How can God create Himself?
How can God be a man?
How can a man be a God?
How can God have a son?
The Bible says "Seth (is) the son of Adam" and that"Adam is the son of God." [Lk 3:36]
Can't God just forgive us and not have to kill Jesus?
And what about Jesus?
Jesus did not even carry the cross -- Simon Cyre'ne, a passerby did! [Mk 15:21]
Jesus of the Bible was NOT on the cross for longer than six (6) hours -- NOT three days -- (from the 3rd to the 9th hour) [Mk 15:25 & 15:33]
Jesus of the Bible did not spend three days and nights in the tomb -- Friday night - until Sunday before dawn -- is not 3 days and nights!
Jesus DID NOT claim to be God - or even equal to God!
 
Greetings,

I'm not a Christian (far from it!), but I could have a go at answering a few of these questions:

What about the Bible? Who actually wrote it?

The Bible was written by lots of different authors. Some of them are known, since their names are attached to their books (e.g. Mark), but many are not known. No-one knows who wrote Genesis, for example.

What was the original language of the Bible? (Hebrew? Aramaic? Koine Greek?)

Hebrew for the Old Testament, Greek for the New Testament, as far as I know.

NOTE: - The Bible was never in English during the time of any prophet (not even Muhammad) - because English did not exist until after 1066 AD!

Old English existed from about the 5th century CE onwards.
Does the Bible exist in the original form anywhere on earth? (No)

Some parts of it do - I've certainly never seen a complete collection of the original 66 books, though.

Why does the Catholic Bible has seven (7) more books than the Protestant Bible?

I've never heard of this before. I know some Catholics include the Apocrypha in the Bible, but that's far more than seven books. Which seven books are you thinking of?

Why do these two Bibles have different versions of the same books?

Again, I didn't know this. Can you give any specifics?

Why are there so many mistakes and errors are from the very first verse right up to the very last verse?

Genesis 1:1 said:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

What mistake appears here?

Revelation 22:21 said:
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

I know Muslims don't believe Jesus is "the Lord". Is that the mistake you're thinking of here?

Why do 'Born Again Christians' teach concepts that are not from the Bible?

A very good question. Christians in general, I would say!

There is no word "Trinity" in the Bible in any version of any language

True. I think the idea of "the father, the son and the holy spirit" is referred to, although I could be wrong about this.
The oldest forms of Christianity do not support the 'born again' beliefs

Quite so.

Jesus of the English Bible complains about the 'crucifixion'
("Eli! Eli! Lama sabachthani? - My God! My God! Why have You forsaken me?") [Mk 15:34]

True - although I have no reason to believe the crucifixion of Jesus didn't happen.

How can Jesus be the "Only Begotten Son" of John 3:16? When in Psalms 2:7 David is God's "Begotten Son?"
Would a 'Just' God, a 'Fair' God, a 'Loving' God -- punish Jesus for the sins of the people that he called to follow him?

Good questions.

What happens to people who died before Jesus came?

I think they go to Limbo - although this has recently been abolished by the Catholic church.

What happens to those who never hear this message?
What about innocent children who die although their parents are not Christian?
Didn't God create Adam from dirt? -- So, why does he need Mary to make Jesus?
And what about God?
How can God create Himself?
How can God be a man?
How can a man be a God?
How can God have a son?
The Bible says "Seth (is) the son of Adam" and that"Adam is the son of God." [Lk 3:36]
Can't God just forgive us and not have to kill Jesus?
And what about Jesus?
Jesus did not even carry the cross -- Simon Cyre'ne, a passerby did! [Mk 15:21]
Jesus of the Bible was NOT on the cross for longer than six (6) hours -- NOT three days -- (from the 3rd to the 9th hour) [Mk 15:25 & 15:33]
Jesus of the Bible did not spend three days and nights in the tomb -- Friday night - until Sunday before dawn -- is not 3 days and nights!
Jesus DID NOT claim to be God - or even equal to God!

All good questions - perhaps a Christian could answer these (and the rest ) better than I can.

Peace
 
Assalam Alaikam LOL

These Questions Are going to be Just the beginning of My debate, If those christians think thats all in store? Blasphemy!

I will prove from every angle christianity is Falsehood and Islam is truth nevertheless this debate is made on friendship and the basis of truth and most logical foundation of science and less contradictory holybook.

Gibson you are the judge , Since christians think Christianity to be the truth then theyre is nothing to worry about Shall anyone debate with me on christianity and islam in the light of science and contradictions? any christian?
 
Moss

Are you sure the silly questions are from Y. Estes? Isn't he a former christian?


Yes Yusuf estes is a former Christian and is now a muslim, so he has great knowledge of Christianity.

He can't say things like a muslim who has never studied christian theology or history

What do you mean by this, i don't undestand. Why can't he ask these questions?
 
It is interesting for most of us Christians how focused Muslims are in finding "scientific truths" in the Quran. It is also kind of funny because all of those scientific truths have been discovered by non-Muslim western countries. If everything was so clearly stated in the Quran, why didn't the Muslims make all those discoveries? Why aren't Muslim countries the scientific leaders of the world?
Could it be perhaps that precisely because Christians never tried to "discover" scientific truths in the Bible their minds were free to look for real science in Nature? And perhaps that is the reason they actually made all the scientific discoveries?
 
Salam Alaikam

Again the friend thinks that Muslims havent found much,
IN fact Arabs founded the Mathematic system of English.
The Muslims DID make all those discoveries but the discoveries were destroyed by the Ottoman empire, before the empire converted to Islam. The Muslims made the first water cleansing system. There is just so much out there that Muslims have done.

The reason why Muslims arent scientific leaders in the world is because the world fails to realize the advances some muslim countries make.

Yes, All those scientific proofs have been discovered by Non-muslim countries to THE PUBLIC NOW. Not like others.

And if the christians didnt bother looking in the bible that Alot of it has so MUCH CONTRADICTIONS Against science and this earth its unbelievable for 2 billion people to blindly follow a book with so many contradictions.
Your arguement as they say Holds no Water at all.
 
Peace and thanks for your answer. We are all looking for the truth and if we talk to each other we will get closer to it.

I certainly know that the Muslims in the past made great advances. It is only that I believe it had nothing to do with Islam, or the "scientific truths" in the Quran, it is only that smart people everywhere will make discoveries. The Chinese were the most advanced civilisation on Earth for a while and they were not Christians or Muslims, so it doesn't depend on having a book that contains all those truths.

It depends on the right mental attitude, and for the last two hundred years the right mental attitude has been one of unlimited freedom. Only by asking probing questions about everything will the world advance. Trying to find scientific answers in a book (in any book) will not lead to any advance or discovery. Keeping the mind free and looking with open eyes at the world will. That is why in the last centuries Christians made all the advances. They left the Bible for spiritual matters and they looked for scientific truths in Nature. And it worked.
 
:sl: to all my Muslim brothers and sisters,

I beg to differ to bro. Turin. When Muslims thinkers and scientists made those discoveries during those time (Avicenna, Averroes, and others) they were fiercely dedicated to the religion of Islam, which explains for rapid expansion of Islam during that time.

I believe right mental attitude can be derived from Islam, for many instances in the Quran, God constantly reproaches us for our heedlessness. Al-Quran ul-Karim uses terms like "afala ta'qilun" and "afala tata fakarun" reproaching Muslims for not using their 'aql (intelligence) and brains to think. Many of the Muslim scientists of the past were also fuqaha (Islamic jurists) and those knowledgeable in religious sciences and being such did not prevent them from venturing into scientific fields. I strongly believe that their strong belief in God and His religion of Islam has spurred these scientists into their chosen paths.

Western historians have acknowledged that at one point of time Islam did achieve the heights of civilization. This is a fact you cannot deny. During the Dark Ages of Europe during which time Christians were being persecuted for trying to discover the world, Baghdad was the center of civilization and it was under Islam that scientific thoughts flourished.

It was indeed sad to note that Muslims of today have yet to carry on the scientific tradition but things are changing. The world is changing. Islam is spreading everywhere and efforts to demonise it has failed to stem conversion to Islam. There are statistics that we can read about Islamic growth in places we could have never thought before. For instance, recently there was alarming trend of converting into Islam in places like Latin America, where it was thought to be strongly Catholic.

:w:
 
Read for yourself. It's a phenomenon.

Some S. Florida Latinas converting to Islam for emphasis on family, women's roles
By Tal Abbady


Melissa Matos slips into an easy communion with her newest circle of friends.
At regular meetings, they invoke their families' native towns in Cuba or the Dominican Republic, or recipes for arroz con pollo. English is interspersed with Spanish. And, posing no incongruity to the women, hijabs, or Muslim head scarves, frame their faces.


New faith
Marie Hernandez, with 20-month-old daughter Fatimah, grew up Catholic and converted to Islam after reading the Koran's teachings. Some Latinas in South Florida are becoming Muslim because of the religion's emphasis on family and women's roles.
When she converted to Islam in May, Matos, a Dominican-American raised as a Seventh-day Adventist, expected the passage to be lonely.

"I said to myself, `Great, I'm going to be the only Muslim Latina in the whole world,'" said Matos, 20, a student at Florida International University who recently joined a group of Latina converts to Islam.

Scholars say Matos is part of a growing number of Latin women converting to Islam for its emphasis on family, piety and clearly defined women's roles, values converts say were once integral to Hispanic culture but have waned after years of assimilation.

The women are among 40,000 Hispanic converts to Islam in the United States, according to the Islamic Society of North America. About a decade ago, Latino converts began forming Internet groups such as the Latino American Dawah Organization and the women's group Piedad that trace Hispanics' ties to Islam back to the Spanish Moors.

Grass-roots leaders say the number of converts grew sharply after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, bucking a trend of thought among Americans that links Islam to terrorism.

Sofian Abelaziz, president of the Miami-based American Muslim Association of North America, said one indication of the conversions is the demand for Spanish-language copies of the Koran, which spiked after Sept. 11. In the past two years, the group has filled orders for 5,500 Spanish-language Korans for schools, cultural institutes and prisons around the country, out of 12,000 orders total.

Matos and other converts say the recent media spotlight on Islam was their first exposure to the faith and spurred further learning.

"[Before] I picked up the Koran, my attitude was, `There's something wrong with this religion,'" said Matos, 20, of Miramar. A friend gave her a copy of the Koran. "But then I saw it was filled discussions of grace from God, of the protection of things we talk about as human rights, of a universal brotherhood. ... This is a religion that encourages thinking and contemplation," she said. In May, Matos converted by reciting the shahada, a prayer in which converts attest to their belief in Allah and Mohammed in front of Muslim witnesses. Islam now circumscribes her life. She is studying Arabic, prays five times a day, wears a hijab and follows Islamic dietary laws.

"There is no conflict between my Dominican heritage and Islam. I grew up in a culture where you have a family you love and you take care of one another, and Islam complements those values," Matos said.

Matos' conversion rattled friends and family members who linked Islam with Taliban-style oppression, but scholars say Latina converts are practicing a confessional Islam that offers strong moral guidelines.

"People might ask, `Why would women convert to a religion that is so traditional in its gender roles?' But that's part of the appeal. There's a recovery of dignity," said Manuel Vasquez, religion professor at the University of Florida. "Second-generation Latinas are caught between the morality of their parents and the morality of the larger mainstream society. Islam offers a clear code. Women ... know they are respected, taken care and protected from the negative influences of secular society. It's a kind of empowerment they don't experience in a culture that is constantly sexualizing them, and Latinas are particularly sexualized."

The converts may be fashioning a form of Islam that meets their needs in a country that allows them to do so.

"It's a comment on our society, on the fragmentation of American family life," said Leila Ahmed, a Harvard University professor who has written extensively on gender in Islam. "We have to bear that this is happening in America, where there is freedom of choice. These women are not converting in order to go and live in Saudi Arabia. We also don't know how permanent these conversions are in a country where people convert two or three times in their lives."

Like many converts, Matos calls herself a "revert," a reference to the Muslim belief that everyone is born in a state of submission to Allah. Being Hispanic and following Islam now are inextricable.

"When I meet with [my group] we speak in Spanish," she said. "We'll talk about what it was like back in Cuba or the Dominican Republic. And yet we're all wearing hijabs. It reminds me of the universality of Islam."

Religious leaders say the Latina converts assimilate easily into Islam.

"What they see in Islam is what their parents used to practice: that respect for elders, the care and protection that husbands are obligated to give their wives," said Maulana Shafayat Mohamed, director of the Darul Uloom Islamic Institute in Pembroke Pines. "Many converts tell me, `This is how my parents grew up.'"

When a Hispanic Muslim friend slipped a copy of the Koran into her hands, Marie Hernandez found "a total way of life."

"I started reading about the life of the Prophet Mohammed, and I was convinced that this is the true prophet of God," said Hernandez, 22, of Boca Raton. "This is the message I have to follow."

Islam also was a powerful antidote to a troubled adolescence, during which Hernandez left home for two years.

Conversion meant the end of partying, very little television and waking up at 5 a.m. for her first prayers. It also meant reconciling with her Honduran-born Catholic parents and becoming a Muslim wife. She met her husband, an Egyptian, through a meeting arranged by her imam. They have a 20-month-old toddler, Fatimah, named for the Prophet Mohammed's iconic daughter.

"At first my parents thought it was weird, and they were scared," Hernandez said. "They thought I might get too extreme in my worship. But now we have a beautiful relationship. Part of being a Muslim is to honor your parents, and I started treating my dad the way I should have."

A strong draw for Hernandez was the idea that for Muslims, Islam is the culmination of all religions. In the Koran, Jesus is venerated as a prophet, and entire passages are devoted to the Virgin Mary -- a ubiquitous figure in Latin American culture.

"It's important to know that Jesus and Mary play a role in Islam. Most Latin Americans are Catholic because that's all they know, that's what their predecessors were," said Hernandez, who cooks tamales to celebrate the end of Ramadan.

Converts say they are evidence that Latino identity is in flux.

"One reaction Latinos have with regard to Latinos who come to Islam is, `You're leaving your religion! You're leaving your culture!' But Latino culture is evolving," said Juan Galvan, president of the Texas chapter of the Latino American Dawah Organization.

"It's quite possible that Islam will one day be inseparable from Latino culture just as Christianity is."

Roraima Aisha Kanar, 52, is from a family of Cuban exiles who fled Cuba in 1959 and settled in Miami. Dissatisfied with Catholicism, she converted to Islam 30 years ago.

"My mother was devastated. I couldn't go to the beach and wear a bathing suit. I had to be covered and not wear makeup. I couldn't wear low-cut dresses. I felt like telling her, `Do you mean to tell me that's what's important in life?'" she said. "I think Latinas who convert are looking for a culture that we'd always had and then lost: strictness in the family, respect towards the elderly, moral and spiritual ties and the importance of having God in your life. Our grandparents had values similar to that. As converts we're just coming back to our roots."

After her conversion, she grew apart from her nightclub-hopping friends. She married a Turkish man with whom she has three children.

For Kanar, wearing the hijab, which some see as a sign of subjugation, is liberating.

"I lived through the '70s women's-lib movement," said Kanar, who works in accounting and owns a real estate business. "As a woman you wanted to be accepted as a person with a brain and not just a sexual object that had to be looking pretty to men all the time. I saw covering as something that would give me a lot of self-esteem. It did."

Kanar says she has straddled her Latino heritage and Islam comfortably.

"As soon as you speak to me you forget I'm wearing a hijab. I'm Cuban, and I speak with my hands. I love Celia Cruz. We don't go to Calle Ocho and we don't celebrate Christmas. We eat Spanish food, and though we won't have pork, we can do a nice lamb. What does it mean to be a Cuban, really? I feel Cuban, but I'm a Muslim Cuban."

Source: South Florida Sun-Sentinel
 

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