Open Challenge to Christians

izmi said:
Moss

I think the following questions are too silly to be from Y.Estes. They are more likely attributed to him. An ordinary Muslim can ask these questions but not Estes who knows Christianity.

--"Who actually wrote it?"

Just click on any Bible site

--"What was the original language of the Bible? (Hebrew? Aramaic? Koine Greek?)"

The answer is in brackets.

--"The Bible was never in English during the time of any prophet (not even Muhammad) - because English did not exist until after 1066 AD!"

What is the point?

--"Does the Bible exist in the original form anywhere on earth?"

Yes, in a bookstore or a library or in people's homes.

--"Why does the Catholic Bible has seven (7) more books than the Protestant Bible?"

Click on any Bible site for the answer.

--"Why do these two Bibles have different versions of the same books?"

They do not have different versions.

--"Why are there so many mistakes and errors from the very first verse right up to the very last verse?"

Delirious!

-- "There is no word "Trinity" in the Bible in any version of any language"

Everybody knows that.

--"Jesus of the English Bible complains about the 'crucifixion'
("Eli! Eli! Lama sabachthani? - My God! My God! Why have You forsaken me?") [Mk 15:34]"

How about Jesus from the Greek Bible?

--"Didn't God create Adam from dirt? -- So, why does he need Mary to make Jesus?
How can God create Himself?
How can God be a man?
How can a man be a God?
How can God have a son?
Can't God just forgive us and not have to kill Jesus?"

Click on any Trinity site for the answers.
Click to expand...

What???!!!

Yusuf Estes himself knows the answers, he's just truying to make people think aout christianity and why there are all these errors in it and stuff. Of course he knows the answers, they didn't satisfy him, and so he left christianity, and so he asking other christians the same questions so they may also think aout these unanswered questions about christianity
 
Dear muslim knight,

Thanks for your answer. However, I don't think those are good arguments. You say that those discoverers of the past such as Avicenna were fiercely Muslim. But those around them who stiffled those avenues of growth were also Muslims! We are still left with the question of why Muslim thinkers failed completely to develop those sparks of genius into long-lasting advances. Christian countries had more or less at the same time their own geniuses and they received enough encouragement to continue with their advances and create the society of which you and I are benefitting today. There is something in Islam that makes it very difficult to develop real science. And I think that part of it is that childish obsession with the discovery of "scientific truths" in a book that was written centuries ago by means of twisting and tweaking obscure verses. If you want real science, do experiments, look around in the Nature that surrounds you, and forget your book.

Because of that I think that you should be more worried than happy about the possibility that Islam might become more prevalent in the future. If we judge according to what we see, Muslims are simply unable to advance technically or scientifically today, no matter what their ancestors did in the time of Avicenna. If Islam gets too powerful, it might be the end of scientific development. Can you imagine that? Perhaps wonderful drugs will not be developed, incredible advances in technology will not be there for us to enjoy.

You should be careful what you wish for.
 
Just see below miracle in the Quran.


Word--------------- Meaning---------------
Mentioned in the Quran

Al-Dunya This World 115(times)
Al-Akhira The Here After 115

Al-Mala'ikah Angles 88
Al-Shayateen Satan 88

Al-Hayat Life 145
Al-Maout Death 145

Al-Rajul Man 24
Al-Mar'ha Women 24
Al-Shahr Month 12

Al-Yahom Day 365

Al-bahar Sea 32
Al-bar Land 13

If we add up the total words of both "sea" and "land" we get 45. Now if we do a simple calculation:
32/45 X 100% = 71.11111111%
13/45 X 100% = 28.88888888%

Above is what we know today, the percentages of Water (Sea) and Land in the world. Yet another miracle in the Quran.

The Miracles of the Quran will never end. There will never be a time where mankind can fully take in the knowledge that is in this Holy book. It is a miracle to all mankind, the word of God. There is no value that one can set to the words of the Creator. It is a treasure of which guides those that want to succeed in this life and the hereafter.

See, if we see in detail, than we should have a large number of Miracle narrated in Quran. Quran is the only source whcih will Update peoples every time
 
Dear shorouk,

I say this respectfully. You have to realize that those little tricks like counting how many times does the word "land" and the word "sea" appear in your book and trying to get from there a "proof" of the truth of the book cannot be really convincing to a non-Muslim. It is obvious that if you had found any other relation between the two words you simply wouldn't be mentioning it.

If there is a rule according to which everything in your book is mentioned in the proportion in which it exists in nature, why don't you give another example? When your book uses the words "sand" and "water" is it also in the proportion in which they exist in the world? What about dogs, pigs and monkeys, are they also mentioned in the proportion in which we find them in the world?

Once again, that is a trick that will only work with people who are already convinced. The rules are the following: "I will learn about everything that has been discovered by real science in the western (Christian) countries in the last two hundred years. Then I will see if I can find a way to "discover" it in my book. If I find it I will post it everywhere. If I don't find it, I will keep silent"

If your book really contains all science, what don't you tell us something we don't already know? Perhaps you have there the cure for cancer or AIDS? Or the way to travel to other planets? if you give me a scientific answer for something that we DON'T already know and later it is proven to be true, then I will believe that you book is the source of all scientific truth.
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,
If god wrote the Qur'an, and has perfect knowledge of all things, he surely wouldn't have made this mistake, would he?
Peace
Click to expand...

Greetings,

Please see the correct translation of the verse you mentioned below.

And certainly We created man of an extract of clay, Then We made him a small seed in a firm resting-place, Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators. Then after that you will most surely die. Then surely on the day of resurrection you shall be raised. Holy Qur'an (23:12-16)

Referring to the above verses in the Qur'an, Dr. Keith Moore says:
"This verse from the Koran states that God made you from a drop and then changed the drop into a leech-like structure which soon changed into a chewed like substance that then took the shape of bone and was clothed with flesh."

To illustrate his point about the accuracy of the Qur'an, Dr. Moore lined up a picture of a leech and a picture of a human embryo at 24 days old to show the striking similarity between the two. Similarly, he compared the human embryo at 28 days with a plasticine model of the embryo with teeth marks deliberately impressed on it and found the two to be quite Similar.

See also the related scientific accuracy in the Quran:
He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and he sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He makes you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness. Holy Qur'an (39:6)

It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as:

the mother's abdominal wall;
the wall of the uterus; and
the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion.
These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

If you wish to read more about this topic along with references from scientists, then please see link below.
http://www.ezsoftech.com/akram/accuracyofquran.asp
 
To muslim knight,

I had forgotten to comment on your piece about Hispanics converting to your religion. It touches me very personally because I was born in Latin America myself!

There are probably some people converting to Islam in Latin America as there are people converting to any religion in any part of the world. But I can tell you that it is not a trend or anything of the sort. Until 9/11 most Latin Americans were completely ignorant about your religion (including myself). Since then we have been learning but what we have learnt is not the stuff that would make you convert. After 9/11, when we were beginning to take perhaps a more positive view of Islam, we had the Madrid bombings, then the London bombings, now 30 or 40 people have died around the world because of some cartoons!

No, muslim knight, as a group we in Latin America are not getting nearer to conversion. On the contrary, you Muslims are probably reawakening our traditional Christianity. When 30 or 40 muslims are killed (by other muslims!) because of some obscure cartons that they haven't even seen, we know that there is something deeply wrong in that religion.
 
Turin Turambar said:
To muslim knight,

I had forgotten to comment on your piece about Hispanics converting to your religion. It touches me very personally because I was born in Latin America myself!

There are probably some people converting to Islam in Latin America as there are people converting to any religion in any part of the world. But I can tell you that it is not a trend or anything of the sort. Until 9/11 most Latin Americans were completely ignorant about your religion (including myself). Since then we have been learning but what we have learnt is not the stuff that would make you convert. After 9/11, when we were beginning to take perhaps a more positive view of Islam, we had the Madrid bombings, then the London bombings, now 30 or 40 people have died around the world because of some cartoons!

No, muslim knight, as a group we in Latin America are not getting nearer to conversion. On the contrary, you Muslims are probably reawakening our traditional Christianity. When 30 or 40 muslims are killed (by other muslims!) because of some obscure cartons that they haven't even seen, we know that there is something deeply wrong in that religion.
Click to expand...

I know im jumping in here but the fact that you are not differentiating Muslims from Islam says that you are attacking something you do not know about. Understand Islam and the Quran and the message our prophet (pbuh) is conveying and then argue against it. Otherwise you are being as ignorant as the Muslims that are causing these violent riots and what have you.
 
You Should look at where it says in Christianity to Turn the other cheek, i dont see that principal applied in Egypt about the Protest?
 
To mahdisoldier19,

Would you please inform me about that protest in Egypt you are talking about? I was referring to the bombing in Iraq.
 
To izmi:

You are right! The same thing happened in Europe centuries ago. Exactly as today Sunnis and Shias are killing each other, Catholics and Protestants used to kill each other 400 years ago.

But we evolved! That is the effect of Christianity on the human mind! That is the effect of Christianity on any society! We are getting better. Our societies are on the whole getting better. We didn’t treat properly our women and now we do. We gave all the power to despotic kings and now we choose our rulers democratically. We were ignorant and superstitious and looked for all the answers between the covers of a book. Now we use science and technology.

And that is the problem with Islam. Do you get it?
 
Greetings,
Turin Turambar said:
You are right! The same thing happened in Europe centuries ago. Exactly as today Sunnis and Shias are killing each other, Catholics and Protestants used to kill each other 400 years ago.
Click to expand...

Er, have you ever heard of Northern Ireland? Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other a lot more recently than 400 years ago...

But we evolved! That is the effect of Christianity on the human mind!
Click to expand...

Try telling that to a born-again who believes in Creationism. :D

Turin, congratulations on perhaps the most patronising post I've ever seen on this forum.

Peace
 
Last edited:
To Cheb,

You are very close to what I mean!

You say that there is no true Islamic society today and I understand what you mean. Muslims say that there is no true Islamic society because according to Islam everybody should be kind and gentle, the rich should share their wealth, etc. and we certainly don’t see any society like that where Muslims predominate. On the contrary, those societies tend to be particularly violent, there is oppression of women, etc.

The solution you suggest is that they should redouble their efforts to apply real Islam. What I say is that they are applying real Islam. They have already redoubled their efforts long ago. When a society like Saudi Arabia says “the Quran is our constitution” and solves everything according to Sharia, it is completely Islamic, there is simply no more Islam left to apply! That is everything Islam has in it! And the society Islam has created there is in many respects a good society. There is very little crime, family life is stable, generosity with the poor is encouraged, etc. I will never deny the achievements of Islam, specially if we contrast them with the pagan past of Arabia.

But that is all Islam has to offer. In Saudi Arabia you are seeing the best ideal Islamic state you will ever see. There is no more.

The problem with Muslims asking for “more Islam” in those societies is very similar to the problem with communists during the 20th century. Whenever the evident failings of the Soviet Union were pointed, they would say “this is not real communism yet, we are only building communism” and use that to excuse the errors of their doctrine. But it was wrong. If after 70 years of building communism they couldn’t offer anything better than the Soviet Union then the problem was with the original idea, not with how it was applied.

The same goes for Islam. It has had twenty times more time that communism ever had to show everything it can do. During 1,400 years it has ruled the Arabian peninsula as the only and sole doctrine applied by all the successive rulers.

And Saudi Arabia is what Islam has given us after all this time. That is the best Islam can do. It is good perhaps, but it is also the best Islam can do.

That is the problem.
 
Turin Turambar said:
To Cheb,

You are very close to what I mean!

You say that there is no true Islamic society today and I understand what you mean. Muslims say that there is no true Islamic society because according to Islam everybody should be kind and gentle, the rich should share their wealth, etc. and we certainly don’t see any society like that where Muslims predominate. On the contrary, those societies tend to be particularly violent, there is oppression of women, etc.

The solution you suggest is that they should redouble their efforts to apply real Islam. What I say is that they are applying real Islam. They have already redoubled their efforts long ago. When a society like Saudi Arabia says “the Quran is our constitution” and solves everything according to Sharia, it is completely Islamic, there is simply no more Islam left to apply! That is everything Islam has in it! And the society Islam has created there is in many respects a good society. There is very little crime, family life is stable, generosity with the poor is encouraged, etc. I will never deny the achievements of Islam, specially if we contrast them with the pagan past of Arabia.

But that is all Islam has to offer. In Saudi Arabia you are seeing the best ideal Islamic state you will ever see. There is no more.

The problem with Muslims asking for “more Islam” in those societies is very similar to the problem with communists during the 20th century. Whenever the evident failings of the Soviet Union were pointed, they would say “this is not real communism yet, we are only building communism” and use that to excuse the errors of their doctrine. But it was wrong. If after 70 years of building communism they couldn’t offer anything better than the Soviet Union then the problem was with the original idea, not with how it was applied.

The same goes for Islam. It has had twenty times more time that communism ever had to show everything it can do. During 1,400 years it has ruled the Arabian peninsula as the only and sole doctrine applied by all the successive rulers.

And Saudi Arabia is what Islam has given us after all this time. That is the best Islam can do. It is good perhaps, but it is also the best Islam can do.

That is the problem.
Click to expand...


What do you mean Saudi Arabia is the best islam can do? Dont put Limits on Islam. You never seen real Islam, Not yet.
 
But how can you say that? After 1,400 years in which Muslims have ruled the peninsula they still haven't been able to apply "real Islam"? What are they waiting for? And how is it possible that they base everything they do on the Quran and Sharia and that still doesn't qualify as "real Islam"? What other sources of Islam are there that they haven't discovered?

I am sorry. It is not me who is putting limits on Islam. Islam has made clear its own limits.
 
Turin Turambar said:
But how can you say that? After 1,400 years in which Muslims have ruled the peninsula they still haven't been able to apply "real Islam"? What are they waiting for?
Click to expand...
Islam was applied there for centuries! Read about the time of the Khilafah (Islamic caliphate). Why do you continue to assume that the present condition of the Muslim Ummah is reflective of how it has always been?

btw. please read the follwoing thread where I cleared up these misconceptions on Muslim countries and Islamic law:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/4498-shariah-law.html

Peace.
 
I know Islam has been applied there for centuries! That is precisely my point. After all this centuries in Saudi Arabia we are contemplating the final product of Islam. There is nothing else. I am not saying that it is so bad, especially compared to the pagan history of Arabia, but we should stop waiting for it to develop into anything better. That is Islam.

If you like Saudi Arabia, follow Islam and sooner or later you will be living in a country just like that.
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top