Peace in Palestine?

[سيف الله]

Salaam

It is a simplification, sure, but it is accurate.

To put the blame solely on the shoulders of Israel and the US for the lack of a settlement is, to put it bluntly, wrong. The Palestinian leadership has their fair share of the blame also.

Incorrect as competent historians, commentators have shown US-Israel governments have been leaders of the rejectionist camp blocking all attempts at a meaningful settlement. Actually thats not quite true there has been one break, and that was the Clinton Barak talks of 1999-2000, the problem with that is what was that the Palestinians were offered a bantustan state so naturally they declined the most 'generious' offer.

I do agree with you on blaming the Palestinian leadership. Their incompetence and severility to US-Israeli dictates is legendary, it would be good if they actually grew a spine and represented their own populations.

some similarities maybe, but for the most part it is completely different.

One big difference off the top of my head is that the Palestinian population has actually grown considerably since the creation of Israel. The same can not be said of Native Americans after Europeans arrived.

I agree to an exent the treatment of Palestinians by Israel has been bad, but in comparison to the treatment of native American populations by the european settlers its been a paradise.

In the United States they simply terminated the native populations. If my memory serves me correctly there were about 12 million to 15 million native Americans at the time Columbus landed. By the time the settlers reached continental borders of the USA there were about 200,000 and by that time the natives were forced into enclaves. Horrifying. In fact Hitler used the treatment of the native Americans as a model - he said thats what were going to do with the jews.

So on the one hand I agree, the treatment of the native Americans was far far worse in comparison with the lot of the palestinains, however they are comparable.

 

[Woodrow]

Mestizo (don't want them mad at you for spelling it wrong).

You are dead on about the Native Americans. I think your characterization of people of Mexican ancestry is a little off, though. In Texas I don't think it makes much of a difference when applying for a job or running for office if you name is Smith or Garcia. Your legal status, on the other hand, and your ability to speak the language are huge factors.

Thanks for the spelling correction. My first language seems to be fluent typoerror. To a very large extent you are correct about little prejudice against Hispanics in Texas. But, it does raise it's ugly head in the smaller north Texas towns. Most noticeably in the NE Piney woods towns such as Marshall, Waskom, Paris, Uncertain and a bit south in Gun Barrel City.

 

[Ramadhan]

To put the blame solely on the shoulders of Israel and the US for the lack of a settlement is, to put it bluntly, wrong. The Palestinian leadership has their fair share of the blame also.

Are you conveniently forgetting the fact of many UN resolutions that Israel has blatantly ignored over the years?
and many others that US has vetoed in the security council?

 

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum;

this is how some Palestinians in the West Bank see possibilities to reach peace:

'Our situation worsens every day'
Palestinians in the West Bank's Dheisheh refugee camp explain why they have little faith in the talks.
Nora Barrows-Friedman

September 14, 2010

A second round of direct talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority are taking place under the auspices of Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, in Egypt's Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh. Washington says it hopes the talks will lead to an agreement within a year.

Al Jazeera asked Palestinians living in the West Bank's Dheisheh refugee camp how they think the negotiations will impact them.

Tamer, 20, student at Bethlehem University

"Most of the people here think that these meetings are the same as the ones before - the meetings happen, and nothing changes. The leaders want to show people that they're making these meetings, but Israel has permission to do what it wants.

After the peace talks, the leaders will come back and they will sleep in their beds, they will wake up and nothing new will happen. They've had so many meetings before. In the camp, nothing's improving. We don't have water here. We don't have freedom. We have more problems each day."

Diaa, 18, musician

"We know the history of the negotiations. As Palestinians, we've learned a lot of lessons. We've already been in the negotiations for such a long time, and nothing has changed for us. There are no opportunities to achieve a real peace with Israel."

Marwan, 50, retail worker

"We've tried these negotiations for many years, and I don't think that these talks will bring anything new to our situation. People in the refugee camps understand the politics well. But their situation continues the same. We cannot see hope in the near future. I believe that somehow people give up on politics - they concentrate on how they can make a living.

This situation is getting worse. Every day is worse than the day before. This is what we see. Israel knows that it's the stronger side, so who can force them to give us anything? Because they have the whole cake, why should they give us a piece of it? Even the Americans can't force them to give us concessions.

These negotiations may delay a new war, but in the end, conflict and violence will rule. During the talks, they continue to build the settlements. They continue to take our land. They make us live in a big prison with the wall. So it's the same. Nothing will change.

We want peace. We want to live without fear of getting arrested or killed. For everyone in the camp, in the West Bank, and in the region, we are peaceful people. But when someone comes and occupies you, you have to resist."

Aisha, 40, mother

"Since a long time, we've hoped for change. But every time we go back to the negotiations, we get nothing in return.

This affects our whole lives. The problems with our children, our families, and domestic issues - it's all connected to the settlement issues, to the prison issues, to the economic issues.

Of course, the occupation affects children a lot. The situation here makes our children anxious and frightened. The negotiations won't change this. I don't think that our situation will improve after these negotiations."

Saeed Abu Mohammed, 56, father of a political prisoner

"Since the Oslo and Camp David agreements were signed, things have gotten worse. Today, the settlements and the checkpoints have increased. Before previous peace agreements, there were no settlements like there are now. The water and electricity problems have worsened since those negotiations. From the beginning, the Israelis have gained everything, and Palestinians have gained nothing.

The real peace would mean giving Palestinians control over their infrastructure and taking all the settlements out of the West Bank. This is the real peace. Anything else will never work."

Source: http://www.uruknet.com/?p=m69778&hd=&size=1&l=e

 

[sister herb]

Many Palestinians and other analysists say this last one idea from Lieberman doesn´t help those kind of "negotiations" at all but may ruin them totally:

Israel’s foreign minister demands Arabs be stripped of citizenship

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Vita Bekker

The National, September 19, 2010

TEL AVIV // Israel’s foreign minister demanded yesterday that some of Israel’s Arab citizens be stripped of their citizenship and transferred to a future Palestinian state.

In comments that infuriated Arab Israeli legislators, Avigdor Lieberman, the head of the ultra-nationalist Yisrael Beitenu party, said the country’s borders should be redrawn to exclude any Israeli Arab who does not recognise Israel as a Jewish state. Israel’s Arab minority makes up about one-fifth of the country’s population.

Although Mr Lieberman’s proposal is not new, its timing may provoke Israeli Arabs and make Washington’s goal of reaching a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians within a year more difficult. Peace talks began this month.

"Whoever claims that he is fighting against Zionism should go over to become citizens of the Palestinian Authority," Mr Lieberman, whose party is the second-biggest in the governing coalition, told reporters before the weekly cabinet meeting.

He especially targeted Hanin Zoabi, an Arab-Israeli legislator who had been denounced as a traitor by several right-wing Jewish politicians because she was aboard an aid flotilla in May that protested Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip. "People like Hanin Zoabi should be Palestinian citizens and go get elected in Gaza by Hamas," he said.

Ms Zoabi responded yesterday by saying the foreign minister "represents apartheid and ethnic cleansing".

Mr Lieberman, whose party gained wide support in elections last year after questioning the loyalty of Arab citizens, also rejected trading land captured by Israel for peace. The "land for peace" concept has formed the foundation of peace talks with the Palestinians for almost two decades.

"The principle that guides us should not be territories for peace, but an exchange of territories and populations," Mr Lieberman said yesterday.

The foreign minister has said in the past that Israel’s borders should be redrawn so that some Arab communities are transferred to a future Palestinian state. At the same time, he has said Jewish settlements in the West Bank should be incorporated into Israel’s borders. Mr Lieberman, who lives in a settlement in the West Bank, said such a deal is necessary because many Israeli Arabs do not recognise Israel’s right to exist.

Husam Zamlot, a Palestinian spokesman, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying Mr Lieberman’s comments may complicate peace talks.

"He holds the second-most important position in the Israeli government. Therefore we are extremely discouraged by his remarks," Mr Zamlot said.

Mr Lieberman also repeated scepticism he has expressed in recent weeks about the peace talks. Referring by kunya (or honorific) to Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, which is conducting the negotiations with Israel, he said: "Abu Mazen will not sign a peace agreement, but we should try to reach a long-term interim arrangement."

The Palestinians have said they oppose negotiating an interim pact and demand that talks focus on a final deal on core issues.

http://www.uruknet.com/?p=m69917&hd=&size=1&l=e

 

[sister herb]

And answer to Lieberman...

OCCUPIED JERUSALEM, (PIC)-- Palestinian MP Mohammed Baraka said Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has once again proved he is a “Jackass in history and a denier of truth”.

This came in response to Lieberman’s racist comments calling for negotiations over presence of Palestinians in 1948 occupied Palestine.

“Lieberman once again proves he is an ass in history and a denier of truth. We did not sell our houses and country, but he came from afar to take control of it. We are the owners of the land and country, and we did not immigrate to it from any part of the world - not us, nor our fathers, nor our grandfathers.”

The far right foreign minister said the peace talks between PA chief Mahmoud Abbas and Israel should discuss exchanging land and people, and not just trading land for peace, referring to Palestinians in Israeli occupied territories.

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/...t1BzijlAi83fRuNlUbB6rfDUBSoMa7Ya4RTm/LS1r19Q=

 

[titus]

Are you conveniently forgetting the fact of many UN resolutions that Israel has blatantly ignored over the years?
and many others that US has vetoed in the security council?

Nope. Are you forgetting the PLO Charter which called for the elimination of Israel? Are you forgetting the times that Palestinians ignored cease fires? Or the history of violence against Israeli civilians?

Like I said, neither side is blameless. The hatred runs deep and there is no way that either side can, humanely, get everything they want. The only humane answer left is to share.

 

[Ramadhan]

Nope. Are you forgetting the PLO Charter which called for the elimination of Israel?

Are you forgetting that you should check your sources before writing lies here?
in 1996 PLO revoked the clause in its founding charter which called for the dissolution of Israel.
Now, has Israel retreated to its 1948 borders, and returning lands to its rightful owners?

Even if it's still there, why does it matter?
Israel is a ILLEGAL nation on other people's land.
Also, based on current capacity, PLO has the same chance of eliminating israel as Indian apache's chance in taking back american land, making Wahington DC as the capitol of american indians and sending back non-native americans to their respective homelands.

Are you forgetting the times that Palestinians ignored cease fires? Or the history of violence against Israeli civilians?

I am daring you to provide the statistics: how many times has israel ignored cease fires and how palestinians lives has israel killed.

The only humane answer left is to share.

Not until justice is served, which is impossible, as long as christian americans stay as israelis' *****es.

 

[titus]

Are you forgetting that you should check your sources before writing lies here?
in 1996 PLO revoked the clause in its founding charter which called for the dissolution of Israel.

Please read my post more carefully before calling me a liar.

I had put it in the past tense. We are, after all, talking about the history between these two groups (Israelis and Palestinians).

I am daring you to provide the statistics: how many times has israel ignored cease fires and how palestinians lives has israel killed.

Like I said, both sides have blood on their hands. I find fault with both.

The only humane answer left is to share.

Not until justice is served, which is impossible, as long as christian americans stay as israelis' *****es.

It is exactly that attitude that makes peace impossible. The "my way or the highway" approach will lead to a few more generations of misery.

No matter how much you loathe the idea, the state of Israel is here to stay and nothing is going to change that.

What is your definition of "justice" here anyway?

 

[Zafran]

It is exactly that attitude that makes peace impossible. The "my way or the highway" approach will lead to a few more generations of misery.

No matter how much you loathe the idea, the state of Israel is here to stay and nothing is going to change that.

What is your definition of "justice" here anyway?

This is your problem - do you even know that the current state of Isreal is occcupying illiegal land which is not recognised by the international community and do you know anything about the internationsal consensus of a 2 state solution for 30 years?

 

[Ramadhan]

No matter how much you loathe the idea, the state of Israel is here to stay and nothing is going to change that

And Palestinians are here to stay, as they have been for thousands and thousands of years, and nothing is going to change that.

 

[Grace Seeker]

No matter how much you loathe the idea, the state of Israel is here to stay and nothing is going to change that.

And Palestinians are here to stay, as they have been for thousands and thousands of years, and nothing is going to change that.

Doesn't this mean that whether you like it or not we have to find a way to achieve a two-state solution? So, let's find a way to like it.

 

[Ramadhan]

Doesn't this mean that whether you like it or not we have to find a way to achieve a two-state solution? So, let's find a way to like it.

Sure.

Tell that to your government who gives billions of dollars for free in cash every year to Israel, not to mention other types of assistance (military, politics, trades, citzenships, etc), further legitimizing the illegal occupiers.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Sure.

Tell that to your government who gives billions of dollars for free in cash every year to Israel, not to mention other types of assistance (military, politics, trades, citzenships, etc), further legitimizing the illegal occupiers.

What makes you think I and a few million other Americans haven't? You contine to make unfounded assumptions.

 

[Ramadhan]

What makes you think I and a few million other Americans haven't? You contine to make unfounded assumptions.

So you told your government to stop giving all those aid and money and absolute full backings to israel no question asked unless israel gives their commitment for a two state solution?

 

[titus]

This is your problem - do you even know that the current state of Isreal is occcupying illiegal land which is not recognised by the international community and do you know anything about the internationsal consensus of a 2 state solution for 30 years?

I understand the situation.

I am not the one, though, that seems to think that only the Israelis have blocked a two state solution over the last 30 years. The Palestinian leaders have put up many roadblocks to such a solution during that time, so to attempt to paint the picture that the Palestinians have always wanted it and that the evil Israelis with their evil American money have been the only obstacle to peace is simply wrong.

 

[muslimfirst]

THE NEED OF THE TIME​

EDUCATION AND UNITY OF THE MUSLIM WORLD​

​

THE PRESENT STATUS OF THE MUSLIM WORLD:
An undeclared war has been started against the Muslims. The atrocities faced by the Palestinians at the hands of Israel are not hidden from any one. Kashmir is another front where Muslims are suffering from the state terrorism of the Indian government. America looks determined to attack Muslim countries once again . They are giving a deaf ear to the disapproval and disagreement of the Muslim world and even of the other countries of the world on this issue. None of the Muslim countries is in a position to stop or resist this gross injustice towards Muslims. The Muslim world is divided politically in such a way that they don’t even have a common stance on any of the issues they are facing. The resources of the Muslim world are being maximally utilized by the non-Muslim world to their benefits. At the same time the cultural aggression of the west is taking the new Muslim generations away from their moral values. Is this state of affairs going to continue for ever?

WHAT CAN BE DONE?
The only ray of hope can emerge if The Muslim world decides to educate its masses in every field and take measures to bring them close to each other as a first step towards the one United Muslim World. Many references from Quran can be quoted pointing to the importance of education and unity. It has even told that Allah never changes the state of affairs of a nation unless its people try to change it themselves. And the first step towards unity is bringing the people of the Muslim world closer because no drastic measures can be taken for a united Muslim world at the moment because of the different political affiliations of the Muslim governments at international levels, the personal benefits of the rulers and also because the ‘World Powers’ will not allow any such measures.

It is the responsibility of every Muslim individual to educate his / her children at least to a basic level in religion as well as the modern sciences in such a way that later on they can relate Islam to their specific fields of interest and guide the Muslim world to Unity and prosperity.

 

[-Fallen Angel-]

I think, and this is fairly obvious, that the Israelis have been riding the WW2 holocaust horse for a long time, and still do. Furthermore, whether you support your (US) government giving millions to Israel or not, the fact of the matter is you're paying taxes and the money is going there regardless. There isn't a donations box where you put money which the US give to Israel.

 

[muslimfirst]

from 1972-2002 russia used its veto twice, france never used it and neither did china ...

the following is a list of resolutions vetoed by the usa during the same period:

1972 Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.
1973 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.
1976 Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.
1976 Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories.
1976 Calls for self determination for the Palestinians.
1976 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians.
1978 Urges the permanent members (USA, USSR, UK, France, China) to insure United Nations decisions on the maintenance of international peace and security.

1978 Criticises the living conditions of the Palestinians.
1978 Condemns the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories.
1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries.
1979 Calls for an end to all military and nuclear collaboration with the apartheid South Africa.
1979 Strengthens the arms embargo against South Africa.
1979 Offers assistance to all the oppressed people of South Africa and their liberation movement.
1979 Concerns negotiations on disarmament and cessation of the nuclear arms race.
1979 Calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel.
1979 Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations.
1979 Requests a report on the living conditions of Palestinians in occupied Arab countries.
1979 Offers assistance to the Palestinian people.
1979 Discusses sovereignty over national resources in occupied Arab territories.
1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports.
1979 Calls for alternative approaches within the United Nations system for improving the enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms.

1979 Opposes support for intervention in the internal or external affairs ofstates.
1979 For a United Nations Conference on Women.
1979 To include Palestinian women in the United Nations Conference on Women.
1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations.
1980 Requests Israel to return displaced persons.
1980 Condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people.
1980 Condemns Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories. 3 resolutions.
1980 Affirms the right of self determination for the Palestinians.
1980 Offers assistance to the oppressed people of South Africa and their national liberation movement.
1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation.

1980 Endorses the Program of Action for Second Half of United Nations Decade for Women.
1980 Declaration of non-use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states.
1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right.
1980 Calls for the cessation of all nuclear test explosions.
1980 Calls for the implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples.
1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries.
1981 Affirms the right of every state to choose its economic and social system in accord with the will of its people, without outside interference in whatever form it takes.

1981 Condemns activities of foreign economic interests in colonial territories.
1981 Calls for the cessation of all test explosions of nuclear weapons.
1981 Calls for action in support of measures to prevent nuclear war, curb the arms race and promote disarmament.
1981 Urges negotiations on prohibition of chemical and biological weapons.
1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights.
1981 Condemns South Africa for attacks on neighbouring states, condemns apartheid and attempts to strengthen sanctions. 7 resolutions.

1981 Condemns an attempted coup by South Africa on the Seychelles.
1981 Condemns Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, human rights policies, and the bombing of Iraq. 18 resolutions.
1982 Condemns the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. 6 resolutions (1982 to 1983).
1982 Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier.
1982 Calls on Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights occupied in 1967.
1982 Condemns apartheid and calls for the cessation of economic aid to South Africa. 4 resolutions.
1982 Calls for the setting up of a World Charter for the protection of the ecology.
1982 Sets up a United Nations conference on succession of states in respect to state property, archives and debts.
1982 Nuclear test bans and negotiations and nuclear free outer space. 3 resolutions.
1982 Supports a new world information and communications order.
1982 Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons.
1982 Development of international law.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment .
1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment.
1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries.
1983 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 15 resolutions.
1984 Condemns support of South Africa in its Namibian and other policies.
1984 International action to eliminate apartheid.
1984 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1984 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 18 resolutions.
1985 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1985 Condemns Israel for using excessive force in the occupied territories.
1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions.
1985 Measures to be taken against Nazi, Fascist and neo-Fascist activities .
1986 Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law.
1986 Imposes economic and military sanctions against South Africa.
1986 Condemns Israel for its actions against Lebanese civilians.
1986 Calls on Israel to respect Muslim holy places.
1986 Condemns Israel for sky-jacking a Libyan airliner.
1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians.
1987 Calls on Israel to stop deporting Palestinians.
1987 Condemns Israel for its actions in Lebanon. 2 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.
1987 Cooperation between the United Nations and the League of Arab States.
1987 Calls for compliance in the International Court of Justice concerning military and paramilitary activities against Nicaragua and a call to end the trade embargo against Nicaragua. 2 resolutions.

1987 Measures to prevent international terrorism, study the underlying political and economic causes of terrorism, and to differentiate it from the struggle of people from national liberation.

1987 Resolutions concerning journalism, international debt and trade. 3 resolutions.
1987 Opposition to the build up of weapons in space.
1987 Opposition to the development of new weapons of mass destruction.
1987 Opposition to nuclear testing. 2 resolutions.
1987 Proposal to set up South Atlantic "Zone of Peace".
1988 Condemns Israeli practices against Palestinians in the occupied territories. 5 resolutions (1988 and 1989).
1989 Condemns USA invasion of Panama.
1989 Condemns USA troops for ransacking the residence of the Nicaraguan ambassador in Panama.
1989 Condemns USA support for the Contra army in Nicaragua.
1989 Condemns illegal USA embargo of Nicaragua.
1989 Opposing the acquisition of territory by force.
1989 Calling for a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict based on earlier UN resoltions.
1990 To send three UN Security Council observers to the occupied territories.
1995 Affirms that land in East Jerusalem annexed by Israel is occupied territory.
1997 Calls on Israel to cease building settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories. 2 resolutions.
1999 Calls on the USA to end its trade embargo on Cuba. 8 resolutions (1992 to 1999).
2001 To send unarmed monitors to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
2001 To set up the International Criminal Court.
2002 To renew the peace keeping mission in Bosnia.
_________________

 

[-Fallen Angel-]

All they can do is condemn and call for stuff. They wouldn't dare actully do anything for the simple reason because the heads of banks, large organisations corporations won't allow it. However, they go willy nilly invading Iraq for no reason, just goes to show..