Peace in Palestine?

Would you like to see Abbas and Netanyahu come to agreement on a two-state solution?


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I understand the situation.

I am not the one, though, that seems to think that only the Israelis have blocked a two state solution over the last 30 years. The Palestinian leaders have put up many roadblocks to such a solution during that time, so to attempt to paint the picture that the Palestinians have always wanted it and that the evil Israelis with their evil American money have been the only obstacle to peace is simply wrong.

what road blocks??? - they must have been as large as the US's Veto power. Why would the palestinains even put up "road blocks" when all the land that they are meant to have (Gaza, westbank, east Jerusalem) is currently occupied by Isreal - wheres the palestinian state here? Its not just evil american money - its the US - on purpose letting Isreal occupy the land that was meant to go to the palestinains and make a palestine under international law and concensus - As we speak Gaza has a blockade, there are Isrealis settlers on west bank and east Jerusalem is under Isreals control and as the Nethanyu said - they are not splitting Jerusalem - so whos blocking the peace process here.

where I am wrong exactly here?

check artcle 242 UN security council. Its the basis for any peace talk.
 
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I voted yes, would like to see how the Israeli side try to wriggle out it then..

a peace agreement would serve as an ideal "sword of Damocles". that would force the Israeli's to act in accordance with international law lest they actually have to abide by a peace agreement, it's not the Palestinian side that's against peace, it's the powerful money and business interests that serve the 'settlers', and tourists converging on stolen Palestinian land in East Jerusalem where most of the religious sites are, and let's not forget the Israeli army, just imagine the budget cuts it'll endure once peace reigns..

That's right, believe it or not it's got a lot to do about the money, religious sentiment is an exploitable asset at best, and more likely a sham, except for a few Zionist zealots.

see http://original.antiwar.com/cook/2010/09/28/israels-reasoning-against-peace/

another major obstacle to peace is of course the U.S. policy of irrationally supporting every single act of the Zionists, but while browsing the net today in liu of Rahm Emanuel's resignation and appointemtn of Peter Rouse as chief of staff, I found this:"n a letter dated December 2006, Abourezk wrote:

"I can tell you from personal experience that, at least in the Congress, the support Israel has in that body is based completely on political fear—fear of defeat by anyone who does not do what Israel wants done. I can also tell you that very few members of Congress—at least when I served there—have any affection for Israel or for its Lobby. What they have is contempt, but it is silenced by fear of being found out exactly how they feel. I’ve heard too many cloakroom conversations in which members of the Senate will voice their bitter feelings about how they’re pushed around by the Lobby to think otherwise. In private one hears the dislike of Israel and the tactics of the Lobby, but not one of them is willing to risk the Lobby’s animosity by making their feelings public...
I see no desire on the part of Members of Congress to further any U.S. imperial dreams by using Israel as their pit bull. The only exceptions to that rule is the feelings of Jewish members, who, I believe, are sincere in their efforts to keep U.S. money flowing to Israel.
I believe that divestment, and especially cutting off U.S. aid to Israel would immediately result in Israel’s giving up the West Bank and leaving the Gaza to the Palestinians. Such pressure would work, I think, because the Israeli public would be able to determine what is causing their misery and would demand that an immediate peace agreement be made with the Palestinians."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Abourezk

especially after the flotilla incident, the Israeli's have been under increasing scrutiny, they've never been weaker and as many have already said there's a great many reasons to expect this round of negotiations to be the last, come what will afterward.

A single state will most likely emerge in the end, with a few accommodations from neighboring countries on land etc, we can and should have peace as the ultimate goal, the debate about the means is secondary as history grinds on and cannot be stopped, the middle eastern nations are rising in power relative to the U.S. and this is happening now, Turkey, Iran and potentially Egypt-the three major powers in the region for centuries I might add-are becoming more aware of this new reality, so I'm really optimistic about the prospects for a final resolution to the conflict. accommodating the Jews who want to stay in Palestine won't be easy after over 6 decades of bloodshed, but it's not impossible, and it wasn't the Arabs who holocaust'ed anyone, rather the nations of the middle east have been able to live in peace before, and there's no need to transport all the Jwes back to Poland etc.
 
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Why not a secular state that doesn't discriminate against religion? Why can't Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists, buddhist, etc live together?
 
secular doesn't discriminate against religion? hilarious!
 
That is the definition.

actually it isn't.. that should be one more thing for you to look up before attempting to speak about it..
by definition:

secularism is
1-Of or relating to the doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations
2-Characteristic of or devoted to the temporal world as opposed to the spiritual world

that certainly doesn't equate with doesn't discriminate against religion.. and any remote look at current events, say in a country like France will dispel any myth that secularism = tolerance..
 
Secularism is the seperation of church and state, which I think is very good. That way there is not state sanctioned religion and its citizens are free to practice their own beliefs without fear of state reprisal (unless of course those practices violate other citizens rights)

And of course no system is perfect vale, I'll agree with you there, however I think its the best one we have available to us. Theocracy does a very poor job at maximizing utility.
 
Secularism is the seperation of church and state, which I think is very good. That way there is not state sanctioned religion and its citizens are free to practice their own beliefs without fear of state reprisal (unless of course those practices violate other citizens rights)

And of course no system is perfect vale, I'll agree with you there, however I think its the best one we have available to us. Theocracy does a very poor job at maximizing utility.

Depends on the theocracy!
further let me assure you that there are no theocratic govt. currently in existence in any sovereign country!

all the best
 
Do you think that there should be a state religion though?

Seems like it is unfair to all those who don't practice it.
 
Do you think that there should be a state religion though?

Seems like it is unfair to all those who don't practice it.

Like I said it depends on the religion!

all the best
 
Do you think that there should be a state religion though?

Seems like it is unfair to all those who don't practice it.

this isn't strictly off topic but is headed to,,

to answer your point though, it's not an issue of religion for the most part, but that of land & money. Palestinians-regardless of religion-majorly owned the land, while for the past six decades the Jewish settlers are living on land that belonged to the Palestinians. this-very much-Palestinian land is the same land from which they are continuously evicted, to allow for 'settlements' to be built in their place in defiance of most laws one could think of.

just what does secularism have to do with any of this?
 
just what does secularism have to do with any of this?

That a singular secular state would not (in theory of course)discriminate against Jews and Muslims and allow them to live together. Currently that is not the case.
 
And yes, I know it's not completely dependent on religion. It was just a minor sidetrack.
 
there is one part of the equation that seems to not want peace and has through some reason or other the military, political and financial power to prevent it from happening.
again, given the variables on the ground, postulating a secular state as a solution to a conflict that is mostly about land seems to miss the point, and yes a secular state might be a workable solution, or it could be a federal government with international monitors acceptable to both sides until full integration occurs or it could be any number of possible solutions, that's not the issue, the issue is that all branches of the Israeli government -officially a parliamentary democracy-seem to be working to derail the peace process by any means necessary, and have done so since, before and after Oslo Accords/Camp David/etc etc..

for any government to work there has to be willingness to compromise and let live attitude from all parties, and that is currently not the case, majorly through the machinations of one side and not the other.

the Hamas/Fatah split wouldn't have occurred if not for American pressure either, which was mostly a reaction to powerful lobbying groups in the U.S. and not necessarily the will of Congress. given such powerful influence wielded by the Israeli government as a whole, a political process is not going to work, the situation is too lopsided for it to work. but again, I'd fully support a peace deal, but which side do you see that is derailing that by stealing land and constructing illegal settlements over it in defiance of international and even local law?
 
Why not a secular state that doesn't discriminate against religion? Why can't Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists, buddhist, etc live together?

I wonder where you learnt history.

When Palestine was under the rule of the Ottoman empire, muslims, christians and jews lived together in peace.

And then the Birtish invaded and occupied it and in ear;y 20th century the bristish PM Benjamin Disraeli under pressures from european jews decided to create the jewish state in Israel where they imported millions of jews into israel with the ultimate goal to create the exclusive jewsih state from river Jordan to the Mediterranean.
 
God, do I wish it would come to a peace. But as long as the extremists on both sides are in power it will never happen. It's not like Jews and Muslims can't live in peace, we have before. I will say this: If I was a father, I would not send my children to fight in the Israeli Army for this stupid war.
 
So you told your government to stop giving all those aid and money and absolute full backings to israel no question asked unless israel gives their commitment for a two state solution?
Absolutely!! And also that our government should not support Israels continued expansion of settlements, but put pressure on them to remove any recently built settlements. These are key among the issues I look at when considering who I vote for.
 
Why not a secular state that doesn't discriminate against religion? Why can't Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists, buddhist, etc live together?

Because of what Alcurad posted. Most Israeli's are not religious, but they are capitalists. And they have influence over religious nuts in the west: Jews who emotionally cling to the concept of a homeland and happen to have political power that is disproportional to their actual population. This power is not actually theirs, but is derived from the support they get from a fairly large contingent of Christian Zionists who see the whole thing as their answer to bringing about Armageddon, which they picture as the day they've been waiting all their lives for.


Secularism is the seperation of church and state, which I think is very good. That way there is not state sanctioned religion and its citizens are free to practice their own beliefs without fear of state reprisal (unless of course those practices violate other citizens rights)

And of course no system is perfect vale, I'll agree with you there, however I think its the best one we have available to us. Theocracy does a very poor job at maximizing utility.
Actually this is the technical law in Israel, but the way the law is actually enforced is a completely different story.
 
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Absolutely!! And also that our government should not support Israels continued expansion of settlements, but put pressure on them to remove any recently built settlements. These are key among the issues I look at when considering who I vote for.

Good for you, and as you claimed, you along with millions other americans are demanding your government to stop giving aid and full backings to israel.
So, why is it that the US government is being enslaved by israel (a small FOREIGN country) and does its bidding while ignoring the demand of its millions citizens?
 
Good for you, and as you claimed, you along with millions other americans are demanding your government to stop giving aid and full backings to israel.
So, why is it that the US government is being enslaved by israel (a small FOREIGN country) and does its bidding while ignoring the demand of its millions citizens?

Because at present my voice is in the minority. (See what I said to ChargerCarl.)

I don't recall claiming that millions of Americans are demanding our government to stop giving aid and full backings to Israel. That number might in fact be true, but it is going to take more than millions to make those demands. It is going to take tens of millions making those demands to bring about change of the type you are wanting to see. That hasn't happened yet.
 
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