In the name of ALLAH Most Gracious Most Merciful
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
To my fellow non-muslims, peace be upon you!
hello nicole, sorry about the late reply, i had some studying to do for exams lol. however lets not waste no time, i have some points to make regarding your post. Let's proceed.
No the word trinity cannot be found, but when you have the words The Father,Son and Holy Spirit...explained to you...In the OT the we find reference to the trinity also but not use of the word trinity...but we all know trinity means 3. So that is why that word was used...for instance.
In the creation story itself there are indications that God is “not solitary.”
In Genesis 1:26-27 God says, “Let us make man in our image.”
We see clearly here...If God was alone...He would have said...I will, and not let us me, and my image instead of our
Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 1:2
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Just a few references
That’s nice but will all due respect how does that explain trinity? Who said he was alone in the heavens, God Created Angels before men remember? So I may agree with you that he is not solitary, another fancy way of saying he isn’t lonely, because angels and other of his creations where there.
Let’s look at this collectively shall we;
Below is an extract from a commentary for the above verse you have quoted (Gen 1:27), written by the editors of King James Version (The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, 6th edition):
"The Hebrew word for God is `Elohim' (430), a plural noun. In Genesis 1:1, it is used in grammatical agreement with a singular verb `bara' (1254), created. When plural pronouns are used, "Let us make man in our image after our likeness," does it denote a plural of number or the concept of excellence or majesty which may be indicated in such a way in Hebrew? Could God be speaking to angels, the earth, or nature thus denoting Himself in relation to one of these? Or is this a germinal hint of a distinction in the divine personality? One cannot be certain."
Having written "One cannot be certain", the editors try to advocate the theory of Jesus, as the "essential (internal) unity of Godhead."
The response to your question, as well as, to the commentators remark; "One cannot be certain", lies not very far, but in the next verse (Genesis 1:27), which reads; "And God created man in His
OWN image,..."
This statement tells us that the actual act of creation when performed was performed by "Him" and in "His" image and NOT by "Us" in "Our" image.
(NIV Gen 1:27)
“So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.”
It is true that there are a handful of texts referring to God in the first person plural, generally in the form of `Let's'. But generally, in thousands of cases, the Bible refers to God with a singular. This use of the plural hardly supports the doctrine of the trinity. If anything, plurality would support polytheism.
There are even other verses where God uses US and OUR in Genesis 3:24, 11:7 etc
Genesis 1:26 uses a third person masculine singular in reference to God.
The words in Genesis 3:22 and 11:7 are addressed by God to celestial listeners, suggesting that these might by angels.
Now tell me if every person in the world who has ever said,
`Well, let's see now,' has thereby become a trinity?
Islam is a strictly monotheistic religion. It believes in and adheres to uncompromising monotheism. It believes that God is one, and unique in His attributes. In the Qur’an, God often refers to Himself using the word
‘We’. But this does not mean that Islam believes in the existence of more than one God.
Two types of plural
In several languages, there are two types of plurals,
one is a plural of numbers to refer to something that occurs in a quantity of more than one. The other plural is a plural of respect.
a. In the English language, the Queen of England refers to herself as ‘We’ instead of ‘I’. This is known as the ‘royal plural’.
b. Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India used to say in Hindi "Hum dekhna chahte hain". "We want to see." ‘Hum’ means ‘We’ which is again a royal plural in Hindi.
c. Similarly in Arabic, when Allah refers to Himself in the Qur’an, He often uses Arabic word 'Nahnu' meaning ‘We’. It does not indicate plural of number but plural of respect.
Tawheed or monotheism is one of the pillars of Islam. The existence and uniqueness of one and only one God is mentioned several times in the Qur’an. For instance in Surah Ikhlas, it says :
"Say He is Allah the One and Only." (iklas 112:1)
And I am sure that it is the same condition in Hebrew and Aramaic since all three languages are all sister languages.
Sorry but with all due respect your explanation of trinity is not good enough, give it another shot.
In Islam we believe that one should worship 1 God, this teaching was applied even in the time of Adam(pbuh), and all the prophets.
If one was to look at this carefully, it’s like a timeline; from Adam (pbuh) to the final messenger Muhammad (pbuh) including Jesus (pbuh) the message was the same, believe in one God.
Now look at the timeline for Christianity its similar, from Adam(pbuh) through all the prophets the message was the same; believe in One God, in neither of these messages was the teaching of trinity applied. And even when Jesus came, to fulfil the old laws, his teaching was the same just worship one God
Mark 12:29 “and Jesus said to him Hear O Israel, your lord OUR GOD is One God”
Even when Jesus himself didn’t even utter the word “trinity”, they believe in trinity. How is that consistent with the previous teachings of the prophets? Was the teaching of Moses (pbuh), Abraham (pbuh) Noah (pbuh) and the rest (may peace and blessings be upon them all), of worshiping One God wrong, because they never taught the concept of trinity to their people.
We also believe in Jesus, and God and the Holy spirit (i.e. Angel Gabriel), we don’t believe they are all one or in trinity for that matter, rather they are God’s creation.
Jesus died a physical death...not God we understand from the Bible there are two deaths..the first is a physcial death, the second is a spiritual death..which will come after the physcial death for all non-believers on Judgement day.
Ok that’s the first, never heard that one before, I’ve herd from many Christian believers that say; it had to be God who died on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.
I mean if it was just the physical body, then why not just get a sinless man and execute him.
Plus we learn that Jesus was also referred to as – “the Son of man” - and we know that every son of man is born with a sin according to the Christian belief, hence the Body of Christ couldn’t be sinless.
However, for argument sake say I agree with you, only Jesus’ body died then one would raise the question regarding about the
sign of Jonah
Let’s go through this step by step,
Jesus said
Mathew 12:39-40
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But NONE will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Here Jesus says he will show
NO miracle EXCEPT the miracle of Jonah, and we all know the miracle of Jonah, well let’s hope we do.
We learn that Jonah was in the belly of the whale for 3 days AND 3 NIGHTS, and yes he was
ALIVE.
And Jesus prophesized he will show the sign of Jonah in the heart of the earth for 3 days AND 3 NIGHTS
Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, then Jesus also ought to have been alive in the tomb as he himself foretold! But Christianity hangs on the flimsy thread of the “death” of Jesus for its salvation. So it has to answer that Jesus was dead for three days and three nights. The contradiction between his utterance and its fulfilment is obvious.
Jonah = Alive and
Jesus = Dead. Very unlike Jonah - Jesus had said “LIKE Jonah” not unlike Jonah.
And of course within this verse another one of Jesus’ prophecies didn’t come true and that was the time factor - but this holds no relevance to the discussion so I’ll pass.
What i am trying to address is - whether Jesus died a physical death or spiritual, he didn't not fulfill his prophecy.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Again it tells us God put everyone sins on to him.
This raises some problems – because it contradicts the following verse,
Deut 24:16
The father shall not be put to death for the inequity of their fathers nor shall the fathers be put to death for the inequity of their son’s, EACH MAN SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH FOR THEIR OWN SINS.
This verse tells us that each man is held responsible for their own actions, (which us Muslim’s believe) - then how does that fit with the atonement.
And what about the nations before Jesus, they never witnessed or where taught about this atonement what happens to them?
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
When beaten and hurt Jesus did nothing, but could have, but that wasn't the plan of Gods' salvation.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
again because of the transgression..(sin)
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
It was the will of god and again an offering for sin. And he shall see his offspring...Born again Christians are his offspring..
That’s a nice story, but the question still remains, how reliable are these verses, how do I believe what is being said in the bible is true?
Especially when the OT clearly states the Bible is corrupted and unreliable.
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
The Revised Standard Version makes even clearer:
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!
Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.
The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.
And right now we know there are actually different versions of the "Bible" not matching each other; to mention only a few: The Catholic Bible contains 73 books, while the "Protestant Bible" that was based on the Catholic Bible, dropped 7 of these books and then altered some of the verses and deleted and added others from certain other books.
There are Missing Books of the Bible!
Where are these books, and why are they missing?
You have said that you have no doubt to believe that the bible has been tampered with. Let me ask you and the Jews & Christians where are the following EIGHTEEN books and why they are missing from the Bible?
1.The Book of the Wars of the Lord: We can read about this book in (Bible) Numbers 21:14.
2. The Book of Jasher: We read about this book in Joshua 10:13. This book is also mentioned in II Samuel, 1:18.
3.Three books of Solomon: The first book contained one thousand and five Psalms, the second described the history of creation, and the third consisted of three thousand Proverbs. This book is mentioned in I Kings 4:32.
4.The Book of Manners of the Kingdom: We find the mention of this missing book in I Samuel 10:25.
5. The History of Samuel the Seer: (6) The History of Prophet Nathan & (7) The Book of Gad the Seer: These three missing books (5, 6, & 7) are mentioned in I Chronicles 29:29.
8. The Book of Shemiah, the Prophet: (9) The Book of Iddo, the Seer: Both (8 & 9) books are mentioned in II Chronicles 12:15.
10.The Prophecy of Ahijah (11) The Visions of Iddo, the Seer: These two books (10 & 11) are mentioned in II Chronicles 9:29. The books of Iddo and Nathan are also mentioned in this verse.
12.The Book of Jehu, the son of Hanani: This book is mentioned in II Chronicles 20:24.
13. The Book of Isaiah, the Prophet: This book consisted of complete accounts of Uzziah. It is mentioned in II Chronicles 26:22.
14.The Book of Visions of Isaiah: This lost book contained the complete accounts of Hezekiah and is mentioned in II Chronicles 32:32.
15. The Lamentation of Jeremiah: This lost book consisted of Jeremiah’s lamentation for Josiah, and is described in II Chronicles 35:25.
16.The Book of Chronicles: This missing book is mentioned in Nehemiah 12:23. (This book is not included in the present books. This is another book, which does not exist today)
17. The Book of Covenant of Moses: This missing book is mentioned in Exodus 24:7.
18. The Book of the Acts of Solomon: We find the mention of this book in I Kings 11:14.
...Jesus' blood was the atonement for our sins.
I have already mentioned a verse which contradicts this believe in (Deuteronomy 24:16)
However, another question has popped into my head, - why do Christian believers repent if Jesus has paid for your sins? I am sure you have faith in him and believe in the atonement. Then why do you repent? What is the need for confession?
You see the way I see it - if Jesus died for your sins and has paid for your sins, then what is the purpose of life? Better yet what is the purpose of Satan?
Words are cheap, actions are far greater then words, and to show true faith one should show it through their actions. And if Jesus truly did die for our sins – why not show it through our actions by carrying on sinning. It is easy to say “Yeah we believe he died for our sins” but true faith comes from actions. So if one truly believes Jesus(pbuh) has died for their sins – then why not carry on sinning, unless you believe that you may have to pay for your own sins?
This is why I don’t understand the purpose of repentance and confession in Christianity.
An example to explain this:
Say you are in a restaurant and a rich man announces that he has paid for every ones meal hence eat as much as you want - and then leaves. Now if you truly believe he has paid for your meal - what would you do? but natural you would eat as much as you can without worrying to pay for it your self. However if you don’t have faith in what this man has said, you would be hesitant, in case you have to pay for it your self.
Because Jesus couldn't tell there were figs on the tree is not the issue, of course he could have..do
Then why didn’t he, your more sure of this then Jesus him self
you really believe that three of the gospels would have put this story in..to make Jesus look foolish
.
No but I believe that they have tampered with the bible and made a right mess out of it.
And I also believe Jesus had no knowledge about the figs, and I believe only God has wisdom of all things and I believe only by the will of God can Jesus do anything.
John 5:30
“I can of my own self do nothing, as I hear, I judge and my judgement is right, because I seek not of my own will but the will of my father who has sent me”
Jesus even knew when a sick woman, stuck in a crowd had touched the hem of his gown,
Again like I said without God’s will he can do nothing, there where many messengers who performed miracles, made prophecies that came true (by the will of God), did that make them equal to God?
I do not know the reason for Jesus saying this, but there would have been a reason,
And the reason is - he doesn’t have infinite wisdom, only God does.
This is not an isolated incident where it was apparent that Jesus (PBUH) was not All- Knowing and infinite in Wisdom
The Gospel of Luke reveals that Jesus (PBUH)had limited knowledge. Luke says that
Jesus increased in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
If you have infinite wisdom, then there should be no room left to improve or increase in that aspect!
In Hebrews too (Hebrews 5:8) we read that
Jesus (PBUH) learned obedience. But God’s knowledge and wisdom is always perfect, and God does not learn new things. He knows everything always.
So, if Jesus (PBUH) learned something new, that proves that he did not know everything before that, and thus he was not God.
Today, there are many modern scholars in Christianity who hold that Jesus Christ was not God. In 1977, a group of seven biblical scholars, including leading Anglican theologians and other New Testament scholars, published a book called The Myth of God Incarnate, which caused a great uproar in the General Synod of the Church of England.
Most famous among the Church of England bishops, who doubt Jesus’ divinity, is the outspoken Reverend Professor David Jenkins, the Bishop of Durham in England, who openly states that Jesus was not God.
The following article, which appeared in The Daily News some years ago, clearly indicates the degree to which there are doubts among the clergy regarding Jesus’ divinity.
Shock survey
Of Anglican bishops
LONDON: More than half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today.
The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.
Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.
The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.
“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84
take care
"With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read)."
Holy Quran 6:59
