Polygyny Advice Needed

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:sl:

i have a couple of questions for you tigersabre.

the first of which is what Masjid in Seattle is you friend the Imam at?

i'm not so sure that i agree with the advice he gave you. we have a certain "Celeb" type Lecturer who's here from time to time. he always talks about how being a good Muslim means that you have to obey the laws of the country in which you live. in the USofA, you CANNOT have more than 1 wife. there are countries that will let you have the 4, but this isn't one of them.

secondly, are you sure that you can treat your wives equally? how will you ever be able to take any other than the 1st one on Hajj? you must be legally married to be with your wife or wives in Saudi Arabia.

thirdly, we got dozens of single brothers in the Seattle are if you are overpopulated with them.

are you intending on sending your children to public schools?

lastly, imho, having more than 1 wife here would hurt your chances of da'wah. you wouldn't be "obeying the law"; that'll give others the impression that we just pick and choose which laws we'd like to obey, which of course would be correct.

:w:
 
It seems weird that your actually "seeking" some lady to marry as your second wife. Isnt polygamy for when you fall in love with another women (while being in love with your wife?)
 
:sl:

i have a couple of questions for you tigersabre.

the first of which is what Masjid in Seattle is you friend the Imam at?

i'm not so sure that i agree with the advice he gave you. we have a certain "Celeb" type Lecturer who's here from time to time. he always talks about how being a good Muslim means that you have to obey the laws of the country in which you live. in the USofA, you CANNOT have more than 1 wife. there are countries that will let you have the 4, but this isn't one of them.

secondly, are you sure that you can treat your wives equally? how will you ever be able to take any other than the 1st one on Hajj? you must be legally married to be with your wife or wives in Saudi Arabia.

thirdly, we got dozens of single brothers in the Seattle are if you are overpopulated with them.

are you intending on sending your children to public schools?

lastly, imho, having more than 1 wife here would hurt your chances of da'wah. you wouldn't be "obeying the law"; that'll give others the impression that we just pick and choose which laws we'd like to obey, which of course would be correct.

:w:

Salaam alaykum YusufNoor,

Jazakallaah khayr for your input akhi. My response is as follows:

1. The laws of the land state that I cannot "marry" more than one wife according to their definition of "marriage". Meaning, I can't come into court, get a second court recognized marriage, and then derive government benefits due to a couple defined as "married" under their law.

However, "marriage" as defined by Islamic law is different. It does not require government recognition or the tax credits :D What it requires is that shuroot and arkaan of the marriage contract are present before and during the marriage contract, respectively, and once completed, the marriage is recognized by Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Now, if there is a law that states one cannot be involved in more than one marriage recognized by Allah, this might be something, as this cuts into our definition, but as they don't, there's no violation.

To help you understand this practically, if a man were to have a mistress, children with that mistress, was to give her money and a home, is that illegal? It's not, so it's essentially the same thing, except they call it adultery, but we call it marriage.

2. In general, Allah has legislated that we only be equal in the affairs of time and money. If it were not possible, then it would not have been allowed. As it is, it is practiced. Regarding Hajj specifically, I doubt it's that big a deal. My mother just went on Umrah on a business Visa by herself (which is not allowed, I know, but she did it against our advice, as she was traveling without a mahram). Worst case scenario, take one at a time, legally divorce and then legally marry the other, get the paper work done, etc. Each Hajj, you can take a year of prep time.

3. If they are good, practicing brothers, let me know - I know of many sisters in Michigan who are struggling to find solid, practicing husbands. Let me also know if anyone is looking for sisters who are divorced, or divorced with children.

4. The first and most effective daw'ah goes to those closest to you - and that is your family, so by nurturing a tightknit religious family, insha'Allah, that will be way more daw'ah than can be done by most individuals in their lifetime. Secondly, the job of daw'ah is to convey the message, and leave the convincing of hearts to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala. Also, as mentioned in point #1, there is nothing illegal taking place, but there is an erroneous perception and misunderstanding of the law that causes people to think there is something wrong. Seeing as this is the case, we have an additional daw'ah to do for muslims as well. I personally am not an apologist - I'm not ashamed of what Allah has legislated due to it being out of favor with the norms and mores of Western society. I think, in fact, it is better daw'ah when we stand up and show our religion for what it is and not try to duck and dodge what is unpopular. People who stand for their principles, even if unpopular, are better respected than those who bend over backwards to please others. I prefer the former position over the latter.

5. As far as public education goes, I know I'm not putting my children through that. I went through it, and there is much that is gained that is unneeded in such a socially toxic environment. I'd go so far as to say it doesn't represent the world afterwards, so I don't believe any "lessons" gained from such interactions would be relevant later in life.

I'm considering private islamic schooling, but what I've seen has not been promising. Parents expect the schools to raise their children into good Muslims, when they don't realize that parents are responsible for raising good Muslim children, the school is simply there to provide the environment to continue an Islamic atmosphere, provided that's what they have at home. Right now, children watch way too much of our oversexualized TV and take its influences right into the Islamic schooling, so having a better Islamic environment doesn't seem to matter when Muslim parents don't care to raise their children up properly anyway.

The other option we're considering is Homeschooling. Tutors are a bit expensive, but now that "The World is Flat" (Thomas Friedman), it seems that it's neither difficult nor expensive to get top notch tutors across the globe at the time you need it, so I may go that route instead.

Thanks again for your thoughts and insights!
 
It seems weird that your actually "seeking" some lady to marry as your second wife. Isnt polygamy for when you fall in love with another women (while being in love with your wife?)

I think it's weirder that my wife is helping out :D But that is the power of istikhaara prayer, and making du'aa sincerely to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Falling in love is an interesting thing. Love is a strange thing - sometimes, it happens as you've mentioned, when you see someone and fall for them, and have to be with them. And sometimes, two people with mutual goals and personalities that click well together come together for the sake of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala, and grow to love one another for the sake of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala over time during a marriage. The key, of course, is to not take one's partner for granted and expect that by being married, the love is there to stay - love will be renewed and regenerated by loving action given to the partner.

So, from my perspective, while I'm not immune to the former, I'm aiming for the latter ;)
 
tigersabre,
you and your wife have obviously given this much thought, and are still investigating. you sound like you do a pretty good job of putting your trust in Allah, so i think that if you do decide to take a 2nd wife that it will work out for you.
all the best to you and your (growing) family.
 
Salam Alaikum

Disclaimer Note: post is not aimed at thread starter (to avoid charges of posting at the person) but the "advisors" (excluding GraceSeeker, who actually managed to insert some Islamic commonsense in his posts)

How many of you, if any, know that a person who practices polygamy in a country where it is bigamy under their law, is breaking quite a few Islamic rules?
 
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true say. you are required to obey the laws of the land as long as they do not compell you to do anything against islam.
 
true say. you are required to obey the laws of the land as long as they do not compel you to do anything against Islam.
Salam sister

you mentioned 1 (partly)

some more to go yet!

Edit:
it seems I am rather late as one brothers has already mentiond some things
:sl:

i have a couple of questions for you tigersabre.

the first of which is what Masjid in Seattle is you friend the Imam at?

I'm not so sure that i agree with the advice he gave you. we have a certain "Celeb" type Lecturer who's here from time to time. he always talks about how being a good Muslim means that you have to obey the laws of the country in which you live. in the USofA, you CANNOT have more than 1 wife. there are countries that will let you have the 4, but this isn't one of them.

secondly, are you sure that you can treat your wives equally? how will you ever be able to take any other than the 1st one on Hajj? you must be legally married to be with your wife or wives in Saudi Arabia.

thirdly, we got dozens of single brothers in the Seattle area if you are overpopulated with them.

are you intending on sending your children to public schools?

lastly, IMHO, having more than 1 wife here would hurt your chances of da'wah. you wouldn't be "obeying the law"; that willll give others the impression that we just pick and choose which laws we'd like to obey, which of course would be correct.

:w:
well done!:w:
we just pick and choose which laws we'd like to obey
and many of us treat Sunnah the same way too :(
 
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How many of you, if any, know that a person who practices polygamy in a country where it is bigamy under their law, is breaking quite a few Islamic rules?

that's the point that i'm trying to make.

also, what happens when, wife #2 isn't quite as thrilled as she thought she would be and brings her 4 children to the "sherrif" and tells him about your other 5 children ALL with the same last name, from your "other" wife.

the sherrif comes knocking on your door with a warrant for your arrest, how do you plead? is this your answer:

The laws of the land state that I cannot "marry" more than one wife according to their definition of "marriage". Meaning, I can't come into court, get a second court recognized marriage, and then derive government benefits due to a couple defined as "married" under their law.

However, "marriage" as defined by Islamic law is different. It does not require government recognition or the tax credits What it requires is that shuroot and arkaan of the marriage contract are present before and during the marriage contract, respectively, and once completed, the marriage is recognized by Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Now, if there is a law that states one cannot be involved in more than one marriage recognized by Allah, this might be something, as this cuts into our definition, but as they don't, there's no violation

forget how many wives, how many attorneys can you afford?

methinks that this:

Worst case scenario, take one at a time, legally divorce and then legally marry the other, get the paper work done, etc. Each Hajj, you can take a year of prep time

is just so wrong in so many ways...

i'm a new Muslim, but i thought "intent" is EVERYTHING! MAYBE establish residence in a country where it's legal and simply live here...

i don't know, but i would like to know which Imam at which Masjid[you can just tell me which Masjid] gave you that advice. i had a bit a of a brutal discussion with a brother from Gambia who thinks that he can have 4 wives here too. i think we need to figure this out, because i can see lots of folks AGREEING with you, but i have to differ with that and would want to debate it ...until i change their minds!

If they are good, practicing brothers, let me know - I know of many sisters in Michigan who are struggling to find solid, practicing husbands. Let me also know if anyone is looking for sisters who are divorced, or divorced with children.

well, you could say, "if they are single, are they really practicing?" actually most are Somali and can't afford the $10,000 nikkah! i reckon it's the good wives that make them more "solid".

Alhumdulillah, my wife is happy with a poor Muslim!


:w:
 
Worst case scenario, take one at a time, legally divorce and then legally marry the other, get the paper work done, etc. Each Hajj, you can take a year of prep time
one can not marry an ex wife unless she has married and divorced another man.

so it would be like a wife swapping party!

fitnah from beginning to end.
............................................

Re: his original plan

every marriage has to be registered with local authorities to legitimise the rights of new wife and kids otherwise the villainous old family could disinherit the new one on your death. under law they will be treated just like a mistress and her illegitimate brood/spawn.

^^where is the equal treatment in that?

[SIZE=-1]"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one." [Al-Qur’an 4:3][/SIZE]
i can see lots of folks AGREEING with you, but i have to differ with that and would want to debate it ...until i change their minds!
I do not think you can change their mind because they think they are defending something Islamic.
 
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that's the point that i'm trying to make.

also, what happens when, wife #2 isn't quite as thrilled as she thought she would be and brings her 4 children to the "sherrif" and tells him about your other 5 children ALL with the same last name, from your "other" wife.

the sherrif comes knocking on your door with a warrant for your arrest, how do you plead? is this your answer:



forget how many wives, how many attorneys can you afford?

methinks that this:



is just so wrong in so many ways...

i'm a new Muslim, but i thought "intent" is EVERYTHING! MAYBE establish residence in a country where it's legal and simply live here...

i don't know, but i would like to know which Imam at which Masjid[you can just tell me which Masjid] gave you that advice. i had a bit a of a brutal discussion with a brother from Gambia who thinks that he can have 4 wives here too. i think we need to figure this out, because i can see lots of folks AGREEING with you, but i have to differ with that and would want to debate it ...until i change their minds!



well, you could say, "if they are single, are they really practicing?" actually most are Somali and can't afford the $10,000 nikkah! i reckon it's the good wives that make them more "solid".

Alhumdulillah, my wife is happy with a poor Muslim!


:w:

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu akhi,

Jazakallaah khayr for your concern about my well-being, as well as those who may wish to embark on such a relationship for the sake of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

I suppose the reason that what was said by myself earlier was accepted (if not preferable or practiced) by others is because what I'm proposing does not contravene US laws, either federal or state. A practical example will make it easier to understand.

Imagine two people are married. They've gotten a valid marriage contract from your state, and you're drawing the benefits given by the state and federal government as a result.

Now imagine the husband in this relationship decides to have an affair without his wife's consent. Is this illegal, under US law? Not at all. Otherwise, how many people would be jailed for adultery? Moving on, what if, as a result of this relationship, his mistress has a child? Is that illegal? What if this man buys or rents his mistress a home? Is that illegal?

Now, what if this man tells his wife, and she says, yeah, I know you're doing it, but honestly, I don't care. Is that illegal? Then the man goes to confess to his spiritual advisor, and this man doesn't care, and says it's ok, we all make mistakes. And then the man goes on and tells the mistress's father. At any point in time, has this man broken a law? Will the US government come after this man ever for anything? And if so, what law did he break?

Now, what if this man tries to go down to the County Clerk's office and get a marriage certificate for his mistress, is that illegal? YES, because NOW this person has violated the law - he's tried to get the state to recognize another marriage, while he's not had a state-recognized legal divorce (bigamy).

But what if he does all of the above, but never goes in for that marriage certificate. In fact, what if he just reverses the order of the events a bit (tells everyone - wife, spiritual advisor, father - before having children and buying or renting a home for the woman). Has anything illegal been done?

I'd say the answer is no. And that's why, any discussion revolving around whether Islamic law is violated due to not following the law of the land must first prove that the law of the land is violated.

The mistake that all of you are making is that you are conflating the definition of marriage in US Law with the definition of marriage in Islamic Law. Usually, when a Muslim couple gets married, they do the nikaah in a manner that fulfills the standards of Islamic law (at the masjid), and they also fill out the state contract so that it's recognized under US law as well.

But if a couple never filed for that marriage contract, then the state would not even consider them married, even if they consider one another married, and the reason is that US Law doesn't consider you married just because the man, woman, and her wali (guardian) have approved their marriage.

If this is not clear to you, please let me know, and I'd be happy to explain it further.
 
what I'm proposing does not contravene US laws, either federal or state. A practical example will make it easier to understand.
but it does go against what Allah says in Quraan!!!
 
one can not marry an ex wife unless she has married and divorced another man.

so it would be like a wife swapping party!

fitnah from beginning to end.
............................................

Re: his original plan

every marriage has to be registered with local authorities to legitimise the rights of new wife and kids otherwise the villainous old family could disinherit the new one on your death. under law they will be treated just like a mistress and her illegitimate brood/spawn.
I do not think you can change their mind because they think they are defending something Islamic.

Salaam alaykum akhi,

I think you've misunderstood some points regarding what I've said, and I think you've also misunderstood some concepts in Islamic law as well, so let me clarify both, insha'Allah.

Firstly, the "divorce" I am talking about is not one where I say "Talaq" and my wife is divorced according to Islamic law - it's a divorce according to the definition of US law, where paper work is filed, and we lose our tax status and benefits. To the state, we are no longer married. To Allah, of course, we still are, because the definition of marriage in Islam has nothing to do with state contracts at the county clerk's office.

Secondly, a side point, when divorcing someone under the Islamic definition of marriage, it is not one divorce, but rather divorcing, remarrying, then divorcing, then remarrying, and then divorcing one more time that causes the situation which you mentioned above - that the woman must marry another man before she can re-marry the original husband. So the divorce has to have actually happened 3 times, not once.

Finally, I noticed that many of you are concerned that the additional wives may not have their legal rights protected due to the way the law is written. That's what Wills are for :D

Please let me know if you need further clarification.
 
but it does go against what Allah says in Quraan!!!

:sl:

How? He won't be breaking US law so he won't be breaking the Islamic requirement of following the law of the land you live in.

What is he going against in the Quran?
 
One thing I see overlooked is that in most states 'common law" marriages are considered to be legal marriages. so if either wife gets angry about something, she need only publicly state that she has cohabited with the male and he is married and committing bigamy. Goodbye marriage, hello jail.

The common marriage law marriage does help prevent people from simply living together without responsibility and in most states if you live with a woman, there needs to be a divorce before either can remarry by common law or by state law.

true it is difficult to prove without witnesses of the statements of either, but an angry woman, is seldom hesitant to say things that can get her husband thrown in jail.

Here in Texas if a man and woman cohabit in a house, motel or other wise for the purpose of relations, they are legally married, even if they do not know it.
 

Ah, I see what you're getting at. I mentioned this point as well earlier, so I'll repeat it again because I know there has been a lot of posting, and sometimes we skip to get to the main point at the end :D

What the Qur'aan is getting at is that I, the individual, am responsible for certain issues towards each wife in order to be just with them. There are two specific issues:

1. Finances: The money I spend on them.
2. Time: The time I allocate to spend on each of them.

Finances are related to my own personal income. Time is self-explanatory.

I am NOT responsible for how the US government views the relationship (that's their issue), nor am I responsible for tax benefits the government decides to give as a result of a marriage contract. If I get any money from the IRS, it simply will be put in my bank account and equal spending continues.

As for my passing, writing a Will is not that difficult, and everyone will get what they're entitled. Actually, the Qur'aan and Sunnah explicitedly delineate the shares each person gets when someone passes away, and so given that my wife (the first) is helping me find a second, and wants to (no gun to her head or anything like that), and we've both taken the fiqh of inheritance law, we both know how serious this, that everyone gets their rightful shares upon death of, say, the husband.

Finally, I think you're imagining a worst case scenario, whereas for myself, I'm prepared for a worst case scenario, but I hope to live a best case scenario, insha'Allah.
 
One thing I see overlooked is that in most states 'common law" marriages are considered to be legal marriages. so if either wife gets angry about something, she need only publicly state that she has cohabited with the male and he is married and committing bigamy. Goodbye marriage, hello jail.

The common marriage law marriage does help prevent people from simply living together without responsibility and in most states if you live with a woman, there needs to be a divorce before either can remarry by common law or by state law.

true it is difficult to prove without witnesses of the statements of either, but an angry woman, is seldom hesitant to say things that can get her husband thrown in jail.

Here in Texas if a man and woman cohabit in a house, motel or other wise for the purpose of relations, they are legally married, even if they do not know it.

Salaam alaykum Woodrow,

Most states do not recognize Common Law marriages, and have not for quite some time now. Texas is one that still does, but it is a bit more complicated than what was mentioned in your post.

Thanks for adding your input though, I appreciate your feedback =D
 
Actually, the one who pays for health insurance regardless is the husband. I pay for it for my first wife and kids right now at a through work. One simply needs to provide the same coverage for their 2nd wife OR be able to provide medical care when the time comes, either one. The goal is not the money spent on health care - the goal is the health care. So long as its available, that's all you need.

Besides all that, one thing a lot of people don't realize is that if wife #2 doesn't work, theoretically, she has no income, but she's continuing to have kids. As a result, she may be entitled to other benefits.

the health insurance issue guarantees that the 2 wives will not be treated equally. no one can afford to pay medical expenses out of pocket any more. if #2 must rely on the government for her health care (welfare) - she will not get the quality health care that #1 gets.
 
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