Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

[ManchesterFolk]

Maybe i can ask you this question, do you think God would keep a covenant with someone who broke their side of it? What is the definition of a covenant? Both sides have to keep their side of their treaty for it to be kept intact.

I'm not sure. But that is not the problem, the problem is that why would God say it was everlasting?

Also, if we were to use your claim that the covenant is forever, then what really is the purpose for the rest of mankind? Are they supposed to wander around in darkness without even knowing that the 'Noahide laws' apply upon them? Without knowing the consequences if they break them laws? Since i've heard many jews on the forum state that there is no repentance for a person who breaks them laws, is that really fair? When someone hasn't even been warned?

Knowingly. It is about intention in my belief, and I cannot confirm any belief except my own. If someone does not know they are breaking a law, then they won't be punished for it.

Also - if jews can follow Jesus son of Mary, then they can also follow Muhammad since he is God's final Messenger. Oops, he's from a different race you ask? So what. He called to the 10 commandments, he never broke any of them - yet he is also the descendant of Abraham. So whats the difference? God knows best who He sends as a Messenger.

Mohammad never broke the Sabbath? I'm pretty sure that is in the ten commandents. You may say the scriptures refer to Mohammad, in places where Christianity holds they refer to Jesus. That is fine, however, we will again as I stated above have to agree to disagree.

 

[- Qatada -]

I'm not sure. But that is not the problem, the problem is that why would God say it was everlasting?

Mohammad never broke the Sabbath? I'm pretty sure that is in the ten commandents. You may say the scriptures refer to Mohammad, in places where Christianity holds they refer to Jesus. That is fine, however, we will again as I stated above have to agree to disagree.

If we're going to use that, then you as a christian don't follow the Sabbath aswell right? Since Jesus son of Mary abrogated it? And the jews are supposed to follow Jesus son of Mary. If not - why do they make Sunday the day of church and all that?

Knowingly. It is about intention in my belief, and I cannot confirm any belief except my own. If someone does not know they are breaking a law, then they won't be punished for it.

A jew on this forum (rebelishauman) said otherwise.

Repentance will not save you from your actions. What it might do is give you the chance to try and correct your actions, although very hard.

A person who completly repents to G-d is someone who compeltly recongnizes that they deserve the punishment they will recieve. If they are so repentant, than they are obviously at the level where they realize that G-d should punish them, and they pray they will get another chance at life, and then deserve the right to possibly go to hell to cleanse the remainder of the sins.

http://www.islamicboard.com/710907-post77.html


You'll have to bring proof to clarify your stance.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

If we're going to use that, then you as a christian don't follow the Sabbath aswell right? Since Jesus son of Mary abrogated it? And the jews are supposed to follow Jesus son of Mary. If not - why do they make Sunday the day of church and all that?

Cause people who were not in the camp of israel did not have to follow it. they were actually prohibited from it. also, Jesus healed people on the sabbath, but i believe you might be aloud to break it to save people.

i dont know everything about the Church or sunday, I dont claim to be a genuis ya know, but I believe there is a valid reason.

A jew on this forum (rebelishauman) said otherwise.

By the way I said "my" belief. But he does not go in depth into what is wrong. He talks about, things like punishment. Actions may be what your punished for, but your intention defines your actions. If someone doesn't know about God, then you cannot judge there actions. If someone does, then there actions are what the quote is describing. I think he is speaking of soemthing different.

 

[- Qatada -]

Cause people who were not in the camp of israel did not have to follow it. they were actually prohibited from it. also, Jesus healed people on the sabbath, but i believe you might be aloud to break it to save people.

So Jesus son of Mary is coming to the 'lost sheep of israel' as stated in the bible, matthew. Yet he's not coming to them afterall?

i dont know everything about the Church or sunday, I dont claim to be a genuis ya know, but I believe there is a valid reason.

I thought it wasn't such a difficult question. But okay.

By the way I said "my" belief. But he does not go in depth into what is wrong. He talks about, things like punishment. Actions may be what your punished for, but your intention defines your actions. If someone doesn't know about God, then you cannot judge there actions. If someone does, then there actions are what the quote is describing. I think he is speaking of soemthing different.

We were talking about the gentiles, and how they get punished if they break the 'Noahide' laws - even if they havn't been warned of the consequences.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

So Jesus son of Mary is coming to the 'lost sheep of israel' as stated in the bible, matthew. Yet he's not coming to them afterall?

I thought it wasn't such a difficult question. But okay.


We were talking about the gentiles, and how they get punished if they break the 'Noahide' laws - even if they havn't been warned of the consequences.

-Jesus came with different messages for different people in my opinion.

-It is one, the deciding process of the Church created traditions based on the people and the scripture. I am not on that level nor in that circle.

-May I ask where he said that even if they were not warned of the consequences they would be punished? The situation he refered to was not breaking laws but killing and raping which is one of the worst sins ever. My interp of his comment was that possibly God would let him reincarnate according to judaism to attain forgivness.

 

[- Qatada -]

-Jesus came with different messages for different people in my opinion.

Proof please? I believe that Jesus son of Mary came to the children of Israeel and his people, and my proof is from Qur'an:

And remember, Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do ye vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you?" Then when they went wrong, Allah let their hearts go wrong. For Allah guides not those who are rebellious transgressors.

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah and he is invited to Islam, and Allah does not guide the unjust people.


[Qur'an 61: 5-7]


​

You'll have to bring evidence from your scripture to clarify your opinion please.

-It is one, the deciding process of the Church created traditions based on the people and the scripture. I am not on that level nor in that circle.

Okay.

-May I ask where he said that even if they were not warned of the consequences they would be punished? The situation he refered to was not breaking laws but killing and raping which is one of the worst sins ever. My interp of his comment was that possibly God would let him reincarnate according to judaism to attain forgivness.

Maybe you could give the proof for that then? To clear my misunderstanding. According to jewish beliefs, does God punish people even if they feel guilt and repent for their sins? Please quote the scripture and not just an opinion.


We know that God does;

Tell My servants that I am indeed the Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;

And that My Penalty will be indeed the most grievous Penalty.

[Qur'an Hijr 15: 49-50]

​

Anyone who turns to God/Allaah in sincere repentance before death overtakes them - Allaah may forgive them since He is the Most Merciful, whereas those who don't repent and are too arrogant to submit to Him and accepting some of His Messengers while rejecting others, then they are blameworthy and Allaah will take them into account. No soul bears the burden of another, and no-one will be dealt with unjustly.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Proof please?

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
1 Timothy 1:15

Maybe you could give the proof for that then? To clear my misunderstanding. According to jewish beliefs, does God punish people even if they feel guilt and repent for their sins? Please quote the scripture and not just an opinion.

I don't know the Jewish belief, I know what that post said, and in context he was speaking of someone who raped and murdered. Who would have genuine good intention of raping and murdering? Therefore, that post doesn't make a connection with my belief.

 

[- Qatada -]

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
1 Timothy 1:15

Jesus son of Mary, peace be upon him is being ordered to:

“Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel!” Matthew 10:6]


So he's coming to the children of Israel. And therefore they have to accept him. Ask any christian that.

I don't know the Jewish belief, I know what that post said, and in context he was speaking of someone who raped and murdered. Who would have genuine good intention of raping and murdering? Therefore, that post doesn't make a connection with my belief.

Your posts are contradictory since your scripture states that the jews have to accept Jesus, thats why he's sent to them. Yet you choose to defend them even if they reject him? Weird.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Jesus son of Mary, peace be upon him is being ordered to:

“Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel!” Matthew 10:6]


So he's coming to the children of Israel. And therefore they have to accept him. Ask any christian that.


Your posts are contradictory since your scripture states that the jews have to accept Jesus, thats why he's sent to them. Yet you choose to defend them even if they reject him? Weird.

It is your misunderstanding of my posts. I believe that the Jews can follow there law if they wish, and also accept jesus as there savoir. Do you believe that is contradictory? How does Christianity saying to the Jews that they must believe in Christ and accept him as a savoir, have anything to do with if they follow their law or not?

The Bible relates many things to why Jesus came. He would say one purpose for one group and another for another group. His statements may contradct themselves but he said different thigns to different people for good reasons that we may not know of.

 

[- Qatada -]

It is your misunderstanding of my posts. I believe that the Jews can follow there law if they wish, and also accept jesus as there savoir. Do you believe that is contradictory? How does Christianity saying to the Jews that they must believe in Christ and accept him as a savoir, have anything to do with if they follow their law or not?

Ask any other christian that and they'll tell you otherwise, they say that if you dont accept the 'saviour' - then you wont be 'saved.'

We know Jesus son of Mary was an honorable Messenger of Allaah who came to his people, and the messenger after him is Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) who came to all of mankind as stated in the Qur'an:

"Say: 'O mankind! ! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided." (Qur'an 7:158)


​

The Bible relates many things to why Jesus came. He would say one purpose for one group and another for another group. His statements may contradct themselves but he said different thigns to different people for good reasons that we may not know of.

The christians can't unite on a common scripture anyway, and they dont even have an original copy. So theres no point arguing over that. That's a proof that they need to accept God's final Messenger since that confirms what came before, and is a Criterion to judge between truth and falsehood.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Ask any other christian that and they'll tell you otherwise, they say that if you dont accept the 'saviour' - then you wont be 'saved.'

We know Jesus son of Mary was an honorable Messenger of Allaah who came to his people, and the messenger after him is Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) who came to all of mankind as stated in the Qur'an:

"Say: 'O mankind! ! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided." (Qur'an 7:158)


​

The christians can't unite on a common scripture anyway, and they dont even have an original copy. So theres no point arguing over that. That's a proof that they need to accept God's final Messenger since that confirms what came before, and is a Criterion to judge between truth and falsehood.

I don't understand your post. Of course you can't be saved without acceptance. What do Jews following there laws have anything to do with accepting or rejecting Jesus as their savoir?

 

[- Qatada -]

I don't understand your post. Of course you can't be saved without acceptance. What do Jews following there laws have anything to do with accepting or rejecting Jesus as their savoir?

Okay, so according to your 'opinion' - you feel that Jesus came to different people with different messages?


Is that merely your opinion or based on proof?

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Okay, so according to your 'opinion' - you feel that Jesus came to different people with different messages?


Is that merely your opinion or based on proof?

Is it not evident that the Bible relates to different stories of Jesus telling different people he came to the world for different purposes like "into the world to save sinners" and "the lost sheep of israel"? I'm sure there are other pruposes which speak of other stories.

 

[- Qatada -]

Is it not evident that the Bible relates to different stories of Jesus telling different people he came to the world for different purposes like "into the world to save sinners" and "the lost sheep of israel"? I'm sure there are other pruposes which speak of other stories.

You really think so? According to my understanding of them verses, him going to the 'the lost sheep of israel' and 'into the world of sinners' refers to them altogether. Therefore, the lost sheep of israel are included within that 'world of sinners.'


Regards.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

It is your understanding.

Mark 16:15 Jesus told them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.”

John 3:17 “God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”

Matthew 10:7 “Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’”

Here we see different reasons.

 

[- Qatada -]

It is your understanding.

Yeah, you have one opinion and i have another more logical one.

Mark 16:15 Jesus told them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.”

John 3:17 “God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”

Matthew 10:7 “Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’”

Here we see different reasons.

I agree - all the creation. The lost sheep of Israel are also people in the world.

We know that God's final Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a Messenger to all of mankind, and therefore that includes the jews aswell as any other race.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Of course the lost sheep of israel are also in this world. I showed you verses saying Jesus sayed he was here for the lost sheep of israel, and then showed you verses saying he was here for every creation. He told different people he was here for different things, yet he was here for all of them.

 

[- Qatada -]

Of course the lost sheep of israel are also in this world. I showed you verses saying Jesus sayed he was here for the lost sheep of israel, and then showed you verses saying he was here for every creation. He told different people he was here for different things, yet he was here for all of them.

Then you agree, Jesus son of Mary came for the jews and therefore some things which the jews did would be abrogated by Jesus son of Mary. Kool.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Then you agree, Jesus son of Mary came for the jews and therefore some things which the jews did would be abrogated by Jesus son of Mary. Kool.

*SIGH*. Were going nowhere with this. As I told you before, there is nothing here but an agreement to disagree.

 

[- Qatada -]

*SIGH*. Were going nowhere with this. As I told you before, there is nothing here but an agreement to disagree.

Agreed, therefore the one who brings the argument forward needs to bring forth evidence.

It's also ironic since this is coming from a christian, because if you ask any other christian - they will tell you that they have to follow the law of Jesus son of Mary in order to be 'saved.' inc. the jews.


Whereas we as Muslims and the followers of Prophet Abraham know that Jesus son of Mary came for his people, and today the scripture [Injeel/Gospel] doesn't exist no more in its original form, therefore they need to accept God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) who came with a confirmation which came before and a Criterion to judge between truth and falsehood. And anyone who hears of his message has to accept it in order to be saved, since he came for all of mankind, and his message will remain authentic and preserved until the Day of Ressurection.