Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

[Grace Seeker]

Can we take it that the Jews and Christians agree that their respective scriptures make no reference to the prophet of Islam?

We Christians may agree that there is no reference to the prophet of Islam in the Bible. I'm afraid that just because we agree on that, does not meant that others will. I suspect that the Jews don't see it either, and were probably as surprised by that inference which Muslims have made as they were by Peter's assertions regarding Jesus on the day of Pentecost. But I don't think even Christians and Jews agreeing on this matter is going to change the opinion of Muslim believers one iota. All three groups are conditioned to see what they want to see. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone even knows how to read a text objectively anymore?

 

[Grace Seeker]

God has only one nature, one essence, one substance, one being no matter which of the three distinct personas you speak of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

So if all three are actually one substance then.....

Why split them into three and pray to all three of them?


Why not just pray to that one essence??? :?


Why??? :?



Peace

In essence that is what Christians do. However, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which exist in triunity, are responsible for different aspects of a Christians spiritual journey. The Father is the Almighty God, the Son is Jesus Christ who through God's mercy brought us atonement, and the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Spirit, the Comforter, who leads us to righteousness. The reason Christians recognize this triune nature is because that triune nature is pointed out to us.

In essence (pun intended) I agree withi Keltoi, this is what Christians do when we pray to God, and why we assert that we are monotheists and not associating partners with God. That is because we are not associating any other beings with God, just observing that God is a little more complex than he those who don't look close enough to see the three persons.

Therefore, I try to be careful and not say things like Jesus prayed to God in the garden but that he prayed to the Father: "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.' " (Matthew 26:39) But I admit to not always being that careful to be that precise, and I know this is true of others as well. My apologies that this leads to some of the confusion you have experienced. Of course it is correct to assert that Jesus was praying to God in the garden, for the Father is God just as Jesus is. But it is not true to say that he was praying to himself, for the Father and Jesus are distinct persons even as they are one being. That's generally the line that makes non-Christians want to pull their hair out and say that we Christians are just being illogical, that we are trying to have our cake and eat it too.

And I can understand that from the standpoint of Aristolian logic that it really does come across as nonsense. My main defense is to remind people that God stopping the sun from moving across the sky, bringing dry bones back to life again, or creating the world out of nothingness doesn't fit what passes for logic today either, but revelation holds them all to be true. So, if the scriptures tell us both that there is one God and also that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all that same one God, then whether it makes logical sense or not I'm going to believe it to be true.


---------------------------------------------------------------

Though I'm wondering how it is that we have drifted so far from topic of the thread again, especially when this is discussed in every other thread on the board already.

 

[fromgenesis]

The verse that you quoted actually referred to struggles that Paul was encountering during his life as further illustrated by his statement in Gal 2:11 But when Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. There indeed was a struggle between Paul and the Disciples primarily regarding the doctrine of works vs. faith. For that matter, the greater struggle may have actually been regarding the Divinity of Jesus, but that is not readily apparent in the NT.

The verse I referred to is actually central to Galatians. Some false teachers wanted to introduce teachings in addition to that preached by Paul and that he claimed he did not receive from men Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ..

It has nothing to do with Peter. The confrontation you refer to (if you read the text) has to do with Peter acting like a hypocrite, distancing himself from the Gentiles in "fear" of those "of the circumcision".

 

[fromgenesis]

Surprisingly, your proposition does not offend me though it may others. At the very least you had the courage to state what I am certain every Christian on the face of the planet earth believes about Prophet Muhammad (saaws) and Islam. However, you must also understand that I believe that same way towards your prophet, Paul,

I apologize to anyone who was offended. There are those who claim that all religions lead to the same result. If truth was a requirement, it would be impossible as all religions would then have lies attached to them. Thus another lie to "soothe" people. Another lie would be that you will not pay for your sins and that this Fair and Just Judge will not justly punish sin.

So if you believe that Jesus (as) is at the same time the Son of God yet fully God, then you disbelieve in the Oneness of Allah

It is not an easy thing to understand, and I do not claim to fully comprehend God with my limited capacities. You, as an example consist of a body and a soul. Is there more than one of you?

My belief is in one True God that loves me and has in His sovereignty and without me deserving it, chose to take away my sin through the blood of His Son.

The Muslim worship of their Creator includes prescribed ritual prayer, fasting, charity tax and pilgrimage as prescribed by Allah and demonstrated by Prophet Muhammad (saaws). We forbid the wrong (murder, stealing, adultery, gambling, intoxicants, backbiting, slander, etc) and we promote the good (worship of Allah, charity, kind treatment of parents, modesty, honesty, etc).

To say that any of the good works is bad, is ridiculous. What you should consider is that you cannot keep all God's commandments. You know that. Will a just God just "write off" your sin? Read the Old testament and see that God punishes sin. You stand to be punished for yours. Do not accept the lie that God will willy nilly forgive your sins. He is good, but also just, not sparing his Son.

Jesus has made us free from the law. The law is just and good and profitable to reveal sin, but is incapable of removing your sin.

 

[fromgenesis]

If Jesus (as) was God in human flesh, why would he pray to another outside of himself, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? Does that not illustrate clear as day that Jesus was not his own God, but Another One was?

It shows that there are two distinct persons, but one God, as Jesus himself has indicated. We cannot fully comprehend this as it is not within our experience. Do you know of anybody else claiming that? Not a person that qualifies as "sane" So either Jesus was insane or it is the truth !!

We can only put forward what the Word has revealed to us. Hypothesizing would be to create our own religion, suitable to our liking and capacities.

Even John the baptist questioned whether Jesus was the Christ whom they were expecting. Jesus answered by referring to what he has come to do

Mat 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Mat 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Mat 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Jesus did not come to the Jews only, but to all of us, gentiles. More than making physically blind men see, the Holy Spirit will open the spiritual eyes of His people.

 

[MustafaMc]

Another lie would be that you will not pay for your sins and that this Fair and Just Judge will not justly punish sin.

....

Will a just God just "write off" your sin? Read the Old testament and see that God punishes sin. You stand to be punished for yours. Do not accept the lie that God will willy nilly forgive your sins.

I find it extremely amusing that Christians deny the Mercy of Allah and His capacity to forgive sin. A most common phrase in Islam is Bismillah Rahmani Raheem which means, "In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate". The forgiveness of Allah is mentioned throughout the Qur'an.

Qur'an 5:74 Will they not then turn to Allah and seek His forgiveness? Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

15:49-50 O Prophet! Tell My devotees that I am indeed the Forgiving, the Merciful; but at the same time My punishment is also the most painful punishment.

Personally, I stand on the promises that Allah made in the Qur'an and I rely upon His Mercy for my salvation from the Hellfire.

3:133-136 Rush towards the forgiveness from your Rabb to a Paradise as vast as the Heavens and the earth which is prepared for the righteous people; they are those who spend generously in the way of Allah, whether they are in prosperity or in adversity, who control their anger and forgive other people for Allah loves such charitable people, who, if they commit an indecency or wrong their own souls, earnestly remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins; for no one can forgive sins except Allah, and those who do not knowingly persist in something wrong which they have done. Such people will be rewarded with forgiveness from their Rabb plus gardens beneath which the rivers flow, to live therein forever. How excellent is the reward for such laborers!

22:50-51 Those who accept the true faith and do good deeds shall be forgiven and provided honorable sustenance; but those who strive against Our revelations shall be the inmates of flaming fire."

39:53-54 Allah says: "O My servants who have transgressed against their souls, do not despair of Allah's mercy, for Allah forgives all sins. It is He Who is the Forgiving, the Merciful. Turn in repentance to your Rabb, and submit to Him before there comes to you the scourge: for then, there shall be none to help you.

Allah has promised to forgive all sin except if one dies upon the the sin of shirk or ascribing partners, sons, daughters, or equals to Him.

4:116 Surely Allah will never forgive the one who commits the sin of shirk and may forgive anyone else if He so pleases. One who commits shirk has indeed gone far away from the Right Way.

The only reason that I see for Christians to deny the forgiveness of Allah is that if Allah is willing and apable to "willy nilly forgive your sins" then there is no need for their "plan of Salvation" which is believing that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died upon the cross for their sins. If Allah is willing and able to forgive sin then there is no need for the "blood of Jesus" to cleanse one of his sins.

Coincidentally, the Christian worship of the human being Jesus (as) falls in the category of shirk - which is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state. I implore you and other Christians to repent of this monstrous sin and ask Allah for forgiveness before it is too late.

 

[Keltoi]

I find it extremely amusing that Christians deny the Mercy of Allah and His capacity to forgive sin. A most common phrase in Islam is Bismillah Rahmani Raheem which means, "In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate". The forgiveness of Allah is mentioned throughout the Qur'an.

I think Christians and Muslims see God as merciful and forgiving. I think the question here is whether sin must or simply "can" be punished.

Personally, I stand on the promises that Allah made in the Qur'an and I rely upon His Mercy for my salvation from the Hellfire.

Again, I think Christians and Muslims are pretty close on this issue, outside of obvious doctrinal and theological differences about how this is achieved.

22:50-51 Those who accept the true faith and do good deeds shall be forgiven and provided honorable sustenance; but those who strive against Our revelations shall be the inmates of flaming fire."

It seems the Bible and the Qu'ran are similar in this notion as well. The only difference is the "true faith"...which unfortunately will always be the difference.

The only reason that I see for Christians to deny the forgiveness of Allah is that if Allah is willing and apable to "willy nilly forgive your sins" then there is no need for their "plan of Salvation" which is believing that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died upon the cross for their sins. If Allah is willing and able to forgive sin then there is no need for the "blood of Jesus" to cleanse one of his sins.

You point to a reason, and a very big reason Christians cannot accept the Islamic faith. We know from the Old Testament that sin must be punished by a just God. "The wages of sin is death." We also know that human beings are incapable of living a life worthy of salvation. We depend upon Christ to give us that grace. That might be "the" reason, but it is a very huge reason from a Christian standpoint.

Coincidentally, the Christian worship of the human being Jesus (as) falls in the category of shirk - which is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state. I implore you and other Christians to repent of this monstrous sin and ask Allah for forgiveness before it is too late.

Of course you know what a Christian's response to that would be.

 

[MustafaMc]

I think Christians and Muslims see God as merciful and forgiving. I think the question here is whether sin must or simply "can" be punished.

If God is capable of forgiving sin, then why must it be punished?

Again, I think Christians and Muslims are pretty close on this issue, outside of obvious doctrinal and theological differences about how this is achieved.

Yes, I agree with you, but some (most?) Christians see Muslims as relying upon our "works" for their salvation. While we believe that our acts of worship have merit before Allah, the intentions of every deed are of paramount importance.

It seems the Bible and the Qu'ran are similar in this notion as well. The only difference is the "true faith"...which unfortunately will always be the difference.

Yes, and each believes that he has the Truth, else he would be of a different religion. I think that we agree that we can't both be right despite our sincerity and best intentions.

You point to a reason, and a very big reason Christians cannot accept the Islamic faith. We know from the Old Testament that sin must be punished by a just God. "The wages of sin is death." We also know that human beings are incapable of living a life worthy of salvation. We depend upon Christ to give us that grace. That might be "the" reason, but it is a very huge reason from a Christian standpoint.

...but you missed my point that I don't claim to be worthy of salvation, but rather I rely upon the Mercy of Allah for the forgiveness of my sins. A differnce between us is that you rely upon a Mercy that has already occured (Jesus' sacrifice) and I rely upon a future Mercy on Judgment Day. I rest upon Allah's promise that if I believe in His Oneness and do good deeds such as pray, fast, give charity, etc that He will forgive me of my sins and grant me Paradise by His Mercy.

Of course you know what a Christian's response to that would be.

I imagine something along the lines of, "No one comes to the Father except through the Son." We have each "cast our lots" with our respective religions, but I find it strangely comforting that each also desires for the other the see the Truth that he does.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I find it extremely amusing that Christians deny the Mercy of Allah and His capacity to forgive sin.

Actually that was one of the things I was pleasantly surprised by and learned from my contacts here. It seems the Islamic view of grace and the need of forgivenss is very similar to that of Christianity. See, some of us are capable of growing.

Just don't expect that this means converting, for I still see that the focuse of Islam is in trying to live as perfect of a life as possible in order to please a capricious God, while Christianity reports that wills us to be conformed to his image, yet loves humanity so much that even when we fail he may still act to save those who put their trust in him to save. Thus Muslims pray for mercy but have no knowledge of whether they will receive it or not no matter how perfect of a life they live. Christians find that no matter how falled of a life they live that mercy is offered, and then one is helped to live a repentant life trusting in that mercy to do that which one falls short of accomplishing for one's self.


Now, if there is more to understanding grace and mercy from the Islamic point of view, I remain still glad to learn it.

While we believe that our acts of worship have merit before Allah, the intentions of every deed are of paramount importance.

BTW, we would indeed call this belief in earning merit a form of works righteousness.

I rely upon a future Mercy on Judgment Day. I rest upon Allah's promise that if I believe in His Oneness and do good deeds such as pray, fast, give charity, etc that He will forgive me of my sins and grant me Paradise by His Mercy.

And if you don't "do" these things, then what? Even if you do good works you say that you are dependent on God's mercy, but what if you don't do good works, are you then not without any hope at all? What hope does one have if one tries but does not do good enough? And for a truly holy, righteous, and perfect God, what chance is there that imperfect and sinful humans will ever be able to do good enough?

 

[Keltoi]

If God is capable of forgiving sin, then why must it be punished?

It goes to the issue of a just God. We both agree that sin is worthy of punishment correct? We both agree that there is sin. The question then becomes who decides what is sinful. We would both say God. If God has deemed something sinful, it is a warning that such actions have consequences. "But one is tempted by one's own desire, being lured and enticed by it; then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death" (Jas 1:14-15).

Love includes justice as well as mercy. To give mercy at the expense of justice would be compromising love. I assume we would both agree that God is not capricious? Meaning forgiving some and denying forgiveness to others on a whim of fancy? That means God is totally just. Sin has consequences.

That is why as Christians we believe there is no way to achieve salvation without the atonement brought to us by Jesus Christ. God, who is Merciful, Loving, and Just, proved those attributes to us by what Christ accomplished on the cross. Sin has consequences, and Christ took those consequences upon Himself in order to grant us the path to salvation. Even if we do not deserve it.

*Me and Grace Seeker both used the word "capricious". I guess we are both on the same page on that one.

 

[MustafaMc]

It goes to the issue of a just God. We both agree that sin is worthy of punishment correct? We both agree that there is sin. The question then becomes who decides what is sinful. We would both say God.

Sin of action or intention is definable only by Allah, Who may punish or forgive that sin according to His Will - and who can question the Will of Allah?

If God has deemed something sinful, it is a warning that such actions have consequences. "But one is tempted by one's own desire, being lured and enticed by it; then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death" (Jas 1:14-15).

Love includes justice as well as mercy. To give mercy at the expense of justice would be compromising love. I assume we would both agree that God is not capricious? Meaning forgiving some and denying forgiveness to others on a whim of fancy? That means God is totally just. Sin has consequences.

You insist upon denying the forgiveness of Allah while I rely upon it. I am actually offended at your and Grace Seekers implication that Allah's Judgment is unjust and capricious by "forgiving some and denying forgiveness to others on a whim of fancy". To have the audacity to question Allah's Judgment and deny His Forgiveness -hmm:?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I am actually offended at your and Grace Seekers implication that Allah's Judgment is unjust and capricious by "forgiving some and denying forgiveness to others on a whim of fancy". To have the audacity to question Allah's Judgment and deny His Forgiveness -hmm:?

You need to read more clearly. Keltoi specifically said, "I assume we would both agree that God is not capricious?"

I on the other hand did say, "I still see that the focus of Islam is in trying to live as perfect of a life as possible in order to please a capricious God."

Now before you take offense, you might ask yourself why I used the term capricious? Have you not yourself told me that Allah can do as Allah pleases, and it is not for us to question him? And did you not just write that one cannot know until one stands before Allah whether or not he will find the offering of your life acceptable, that in this one cannot predict what Allah will or will not do, because it is totally up to Allah's will and not our will?

That sounds a lot like this definition of capricious:

governed or characterized by caprice : impulsive , unpredictable
caprice stresses lack of apparent motivation and suggests willfulness

I believe I have said exactly what you have already said, you just don't like the English word that encapsulates all you have yourself said. Now, if I still don't understand you have a choice, you can either take offense or you can try to explain more so that I better understand. Which of those options you choose is totally up to you.

 

[barney]

I would Argue that Yahweh is more intolerant than Allah. Allah seems more aloof to me, where as Yahweh is a just smiter of all firstborns and suchlike.

In the Koran (apart from the 30 odd million killed in the flood...which might be a local flood and hence only several hundred dead), Allah actually only directly kills 4 people.
In the Bible, Yahweh kills nearly 37 million for various sins from stopping the arc from falling to the ground to their king taking a census when he told him to take a census.
Thats David /Dawood BTW, and if obaying orders requires 70000 innocent dead then I vote Yahweh as "Most intolerant Deity 1800BC"

 

[Keltoi]

I would Argue that Yahweh is more intolerant than Allah. Allah seems more aloof to me, where as Yahweh is a just smiter of all firstborns and suchlike.

In the Koran (apart from the 30 odd million killed in the flood...which might be a local flood and hence only several hundred dead), Allah actually only directly kills 4 people.
In the Bible, Yahweh kills nearly 37 million for various sins from stopping the arc from falling to the ground to their king taking a census when he told him to take a census.
Thats David /Dawood BTW, and if obaying orders requires 70000 innocent dead then I vote Yahweh as "Most intolerant Deity 1800BC"

Your statistics aside...I think you forget that Islam claims to worship the same God of Abraham that Christians and Jews do. By separating Allah from the Old Testament God of Abraham you are suggesting that Allah is a separate deity altogether. Islam states that it is the religion of all prophets before Muhammed.

 

[MustafaMc]

You need to read more clearly. Keltoi specifically said, "I assume we would both agree that God is not capricious?"

Rather he said, "To give mercy at the expense of justice would be compromising love. I assume we would both agree that God is not capricious?" which I understood to mean that to give mercy at the expense of justice would be acting capriciously. And, yes, personally, I am counting on "mercy at the expense of justice".

I on the other hand did say, "I still see that the focus of Islam is in trying to live as perfect of a life as possible in order to please a capricious God."

Yes, we strive to live as perfectly as possible by following the example of Prophet Muhammad (saaws) and by perfecting our intentions, but that is not to say that Allah is impulsive or whimsical in His Judgment since we do not know how we will be judged.

Now before you take offense, you might ask yourself why I used the term capricious? Have you not yourself told me that Allah can do as Allah pleases, and it is not for us to question him? And did you not just write that one cannot know until one stands before Allah whether or not he will find the offering of your life acceptable, that in this one cannot predict what Allah will or will not do, because it is totally up to Allah's will and not our will?

That sounds a lot like this definition of capricious:governed or characterized by caprice : impulsive , unpredictable
caprice stresses lack of apparent motivation and suggests willfulness

I believe I have said exactly what you have already said, you just don't like the English word that encapsulates all you have yourself said. Now, if I still don't understand you have a choice, you can either take offense or you can try to explain more so that I better understand. Which of those options you choose is totally up to you.

capricious: characterized by or subject to whim.

whim: 1. a sudden or capricious idea or fancy 2. arbitrary thought or impulse.

Although in some sense the word it seems to apply to what I have written, I still don't like the word as an obvious insult to Allah. Allah knows us better than we know ourselves and His Judgment is beyond question. It is wrong to imply that Allah is acting on a whim (which is an arbitrary, impulsive thought) just because He does not follow some predefined and rigid formula for judgment of mankind on that Fateful Day. We don't know our own personal judgment, but Allah has promised those who believe and do good deeds forgiveness of our sins. However, we certainly don't have the assurance of Paradise just because we prayed 5 times a day, fasted for 30 days every year, gave 2.5% of our wealth to the poor, and performed pilgrimage because we are incapable of judging our own innermost intentions in doing these things.

For Muslims, Judgment Day is no mere formality to receive our perfunctory stamp of redemption, but rather it is most definitely still "up in the air" how we will be judged. We know that Allah has saved 99 parts of Mercy out of 100 to be shown to believers on that Day and upon this I place my trust.

 

[MustafaMc]

Your statistics aside...I think you forget that Islam claims to worship the same God of Abraham that Christians and Jews do. By separating Allah from the Old Testament God of Abraham you are suggesting that Allah is a separate deity altogether. Islam states that it is the religion of all prophets before Muhammed.

Yes, by my understanding Jehovah, Yahweh (OT), Father (NT), and Allah (Qur'an) all refer to the One God - the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

 

[Grace Seeker]

For Muslims, Judgment Day is no mere formality to receive our perfunctory stamp of redemption, but rather it is most definitely still "up in the air" how we will be judged. We know that Allah has saved 99 parts of Mercy out of 100 to be shown to believers on that Day and upon this I place my trust.

The reason that judgment day is a formality for the Christian is that we have already faced that judgment. We have realized that we are indeed guilty of sin and, judged accordingly, condemned to death. But, thanks be to God who grants us his mercy in Jesus Christ, we have also been offered salvation, not because of the works we have done, good deeds of our own righteousness, we have none and can never do enough meritorious deeds to be good enough for God, we only have the righteousness which Christ himself imputes to us. Now, if God has decided that such righteousness is acceptable to him, then who am I to deny that God's will be accomplished to save all those who trust in him. This is just clinging to the promises of God. I guess we shall see what we shall see, but we trust in Christ. Muslims trust in "if I believe in His Oneness and do good deeds such as pray, fast, give charity, etc." Your hope is that "our acts of worship have merit."

And yet, though you claim that God is not capricious, not appreciating the idea of whimsy, there is still the fact that you have no certainty because you cannot predict what God will do:

I understand that Muslims are less confident that they will gain Paradise because we don't know what our final state of belief will be or which way the scale of good vs bad deeds will tip for us. We wait upon a future event, Judgment Day, and don't know how we will stand. Even the heaviest of Islamic deeds (testimony of Tawhid, Oneness of Allah) is up in the air for me because the merit of every deed depends upon the intention. I am incapable of judging my own innermost intentions even in saying, "There is no god, but Allah and Muhammad was his Servant, Messenger and Prophet". I rely upon the Mercy of Allah, yet I fear His punishment.

 

[MustafaMc]

And if you don't "do" these things, then what?

If I refuse to submit my will to that of Allah's despite my faith in His Oneness, then that counts as bad deeds. If my bad deeds outweigh my good ones, then Allah may sentence me to punishment in the Hellfire, or He may forgive me. If I am sent to the Hellfire, Islam teaches that, due to my faith in Allah, Prophet Muhammad (saaws) will intercede for me and supplicate to Allah for my eventual release.

Even if you do good works you say that you are dependent on God's mercy, but what if you don't do good works, are you then not without any hope at all? What hope does one have if one tries but does not do good enough? And for a truly holy, righteous, and perfect God, what chance is there that imperfect and sinful humans will ever be able to do good enough?

We were created to worship Allah of our own free will. We were shown the proper worship of Allah by the example of Muhammad (saaws) and our obedience to Muhammad is obedience to Allah. Quran 3:132 And obey Allah and the Messenger, that ye may find mercy. and 4:69 Whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger will be in the company of those whom Allah has blessed - the Prophets, the truthful, the martyrs, and the righteous: What excellent companions they will be!

An important illustration of the Mercy of Allah is in the accounting of deeds for a believer as illustrated in the following hadith in Bukhari 8.498. The Prophet narrating about his Lord and, "Allah ordered that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed how. If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed; and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him with Him from ten to seven hundred times to many more times: and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed with Him, and if he intended to do it and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed." Using this "equation", Allah supplements the good deeds of the Muslim such that his balance of deeds shifts in his favor despite his own imperfection as a human being.

only intends to do a good deed= +1
intends a good deed and does it = +10 to +700
only intends to do a bad bad = +1
intends a bad deed and does it = -1

I also remember reading that the "heaviest good deed" on that Day is "La ilaha ill'Allah, Muhammadan Rasool'Allah" as found in hadith 1463 in Tirmidhi Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said that on the Day of Resurrection Allah will separate a man belonging to his people in presence of all creatures and spread ninety-nine scrolls over him, each scroll extending as far as the eye could see, then say, "Do you object to anything in this? Have my scribes who keep note wronged you?" He will reply, "No, my Lord." He will ask him if he has any excuse, and when he tells his Lord that he has none, He will say, "On the contrary you have with Us a good deed, and you will not be wronged today." A document will then be brought out containing, "I testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger," and He will say, "Come to be weighed." He will ask his Lord, "What this document along with these scrolls is? And He will reply, "You will not be wronged." The scrolls will then be put in one side of the scale and the document in the other, and the scrolls will become light and the document heavy, for nothing could compare in weight with Allah's name.

BTW the uncertainty that I have stated in my own judgment does not indicate a lack of confidence that Islam is the Straight Path or in the Forgiveness of Allah, but rather waiting upon Allah's Judgment and an awareness of my own imperfections and the knowledge that Allah knows my innermost intentions better than I do. However, I do not despair of the Mercy of Allah.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I accept the seriousness in which you seek and do not despair to receive Allah's mercy. As I said, that is one of the things that I have learned here. I also hope you can see that my comments that you found offensive were just a reflection of what you had already told me regarding the degree to which it is yet an unknown wholly dependent on Allah's unrevealed will.

 

[fromgenesis]

I find it extremely amusing that Christians deny the Mercy of Allah and His capacity to forgive sin. A most common phrase in Islam is Bismillah Rahmani Raheem which means, "In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate". The forgiveness of Allah is mentioned throughout the Qur'an.

.

There is no argument that God is forgiving. You rely on the promises contained in the Qur'an. The difference seems to be that you believe good deeds will get you into heaven - as promised.

My contention is that no amount of good deeds can remove your sin and you will still be punished for your sin.

Now we can argue the merits of both, but let us look at what has happened and the real nature of the false message.

In the Garden of Eden - what was promised - you can ignore God's instructions - do not worry - you will not die. A lie that suggested that God will not do a nasty thing like punishing you for disobeying Him. We see people all about us doing what ?..... dying. So Satan is what Jesus has called him

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised land - as punishment.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their wickedness - so was the whole human race except for Noah and his family.

Even out judicial system allows for "punishment to fit the crime". This is the rules even in nature - that there are consequences to actions.

The following extract is from one of your other comments

And, yes, personally, I am counting on "mercy at the expense of justice".

This would mean that God is not just? My contention is that God is both merciful and just. Just by punishing sin - merciful by making provision for our sanctification through the blood of His dear Son.

There seems to be a major stumbling block by you insisting that we worship a man and "another god". That is not the message of the Bible. The Bible is clear that there is only one God. In the Bible He has revealed Himself as being God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - something quite beyond me to understand completely. Like you, I accept this in faith. Not blind faith but faith based on the Old as well as New Testaments. Faith based on what was revealed through the prophets - prophets who did not contradict one another.