Question for Christians...

[DigitalStorm82]

Jesus himself said “The first of all the commandments is hear, O Israel the Lord our God is on Lord,” (Mark 12:29)

Where did the concept of trinity come from?

Trinity is not even mentioned in the Bible... but it is mentioned in the Quran.

Jesus said: our God is one Lord. (One God)
Mohammad said: there are no Gods but Allah (Lord/God) (One God)

Jesus also said in John Chapter 5, verse 30.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

but Him who sent me? How is this in anyway making Jesus God? and God Jesus?

peace be with you,
Hamid

 

[PrIM3]

Jesus himself said “The first of all the commandments is hear, O Israel the Lord our God is on Lord,” (Mark 12:29)

Where did the concept of trinity come from?

Trinity is not even mentioned in the Bible... but it is mentioned in the Quran.

Jesus said: our God is one Lord. (One God)
Mohammad said: there are no Gods but Allah (Lord/God) (One God)

Jesus also said in John Chapter 5, verse 30.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

but Him who sent me? How is this in anyway making Jesus God? and God Jesus?

peace be with you,
Hamid

because what type of sacrifice would be sufficient enough to take care of sin? other than God Himself.
I think if you knew Hebrew (not saying you don't) you could understand... I think the answer lies in the original text of the Bible.
God sent His one and only Holy Son to die on the cross for us or He sent His Holy Word to give us a promise that those who believe in Him will be healed from their transgressions.

 

[DigitalStorm82]

If he is the son... then he isn't God...

God is not created.... So if the ALMIGHTY GOD created a "son" he (son) is definitely not a GOD... because GOD IS FOREVER... always was.. and always will be...

And if you say Jesus was GOD... then why would Jesus say HE who sent me... who is He if jesus himself is God?

Im sorry your answers don't make any sense...

 

[Phil12123]

Thats all fine and good, but if the blood of Jesus (Saas) is the man part (the flesh) -and the soul is the God part... then we are back to step one. If all that died was the body of Jesus, then all that died for your sins, the "ultimate sacrifice" is a human body. Not God. God didn't die for your sins. A body did.

Before the "Word" was made flesh (John 1:14), He was in the beginning and He was with the Father and He was, as to His nature, substance, or essence, God or Deity (John 1:1). He was in "the form of God" and "equal with God" (Phil. 2:6). As such He was/is eternal, existing from everlasting, from eternity past, and immortal. In order to bear the sins of mankind and die for them, He had to take upon Himself that flesh, which is mortal. It was that flesh that died for our sins, not His Deity. In God's plan, as prefigured in the O.T., it was the shedding of His blood and thereby the death of His body that was the atoning sacrifice for our sins. His Deity did not die for our sins; deity cannot die.

Hebrews 10:
9. then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.'' He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13. from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

It was His humanity ("this Man") in living a perfect, sinless life in the flesh, that qualified Him to be the perfect sacrifice, and it was the shedding of His blood that cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Peace

 

[Phil12123]

Jesus himself said “The first of all the commandments is hear, O Israel the Lord our God is on Lord,” (Mark 12:29)

Where did the concept of trinity come from?

Trinity is not even mentioned in the Bible...

The word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible, but what it means is indeed taught in the Bible. The concept of trinity came from what the Bible teaches about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each are called "God" in the Bible, and yet, the Bible also teaches that there is only ONE God. So, the THREE are the ONE God. 3 in 1... tri - unity... trinity.

Jesus also said in John Chapter 5, verse 30.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

but Him who sent me? How is this in anyway making Jesus God? and God Jesus?

When the Father sent the Son, the Son showed perfect submission and obedience to the Father. All the verses like John 5:30 merely show that. They show His humanity and His submission as the perfect Man to the Father. Those verses do not themselves establish that Jesus was not Deity, or God, in the flesh. Just as your son may be perfectly obedient to you, but that does not make him less human than you. His essence, substance, or nature is MAN, just like YOU. Not animal, or plant, or rock, or whatever, but MAN, just like you. Jesus, the Son of God, is Deity, just like His Father. Jesus just happens to be clothed in a body, one that is presently glorified and immortal, after His original body died for our sins.

Peace

 

[InToTheRain]

Muslim Convert, when you use the word mortal, you do understand that mortal refers to the death of the physical but not the spiritual, correct?

Your spirit survives death as well. What exactly, logically speaking, about Jesus being God and having a mortal body and an immortal spirit, are you having trouble with?

Thanks
Nimrod

Are you saying that anything that has a mortal body and an immortal spirit is a God?:?

 

[InToTheRain]

The word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible

Peace

Indeed it is not mentioned in the Bible which apparently is supposed to have bought the whole concept of trinity into existence! BUT GUESS WHAT! The Noble Qur'an mentions it, just another example of how Allah (SWT) tells us of things to come in the Qu'ran:

4:171 O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion nor speak anything about Allah, but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only a messenger of Allah and His word which He communicated to Mary and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you. Allah is only one God. Far be it from His glory to have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as having charge of affairs.

5:73 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Allah is the third of the three. And there is no God but One God. And if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement will surely befall such of them as disbelieve.

 

[InToTheRain]

The whole trinity concept does not have any reasoble ground, here is proof provided by the BIBLE that it does not exist.

Mark 13.32: "But of that day or that hour no man knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Now christians say that God is three things yet 1? explain please! 1+1+1 = 1?

Many christians have given me explanations such as saying "for example, I am a father, a son and a husband, therefore I am three things yet I am one, you see?"

BUT when I reply with
"but Mark 13:32 says that Jesus doesn't know what god knows therefore proving they are not the same, If you are a husband, a son and a father,then obviusly if, in this case, the son was told the secret then the father and husband would also know because they are the same person. But Jesus says he doesnt know what GOD knows."

So Mark 13:32 proves trinity is false.

 

[Joe98]

Mark 13.32: "But of that day or that hour no man knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

It that quote, who is "the Son" ???

 

[InToTheRain]

It that quote, who is "the Son" ???

not 100% sure but I am 99% sure it is Jesus

 

[albee]

The whole trinity concept does not have any reasoble ground, here is proof provided by the BIBLE that it does not exist.

Mark 13.32: "But of that day or that hour no man knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Now christians say that God is three things yet 1? explain please! 1+1+1 = 1?

Many christians have given me explanations such as saying "for example, I am a father, a son and a husband, therefore I am three things yet I am one, you see?"

BUT when I reply with
"but Mark 13:32 says that Jesus doesn't know what god knows therefore proving they are not the same, If you are a husband, a son and a father,then obviusly if, in this case, the son was told the secret then the father and husband would also know because they are the same person. But Jesus says he doesnt know what GOD knows."

So Mark 13:32 proves trinity is false.

Greetings;

Christians do beleieve in a Triune God, but logic alone will never prove that this is true. However, it is wise to reason from the Scriptures. Whilst the foundation of the Christian faith is Jesus, and He is only declared by this Name in the New Testament, both Jesus Himself and the writers of the N.T taught that He existed prior to His existence as a human being on this earth.

Jesus used the Old Testament to teach His disciples the truth concerning Himself, and whilst Christians today tend to emphasize the teachings of the N.T, WE CANNOT seperate it from the teachings in the Old Testament.

There are some major anomalies within the OT that only make sense when Jesus is brought into the equation.
Firstly, there is a plain teaching throughout both Old and New Testaments, that no man has seen God at any time and lived.
And yet, the Old Testament on numerous occasions declares that men DID see God. On some of these times, those people who had seen Him, were terrified that they would die, and could not beleive that they were still alive.

The question then arises; if it were impossible for them to see God and remain alive, but they had seen Him and still lived, then who had they actually seen?
Many of these occasions, it is the Angel of the LORD who had appeared to men.
Jacob wrestled with a Man, but then stated "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (Genesis 32:30)
It seems as though Jacob knew that God had visited him as a Man.

Again, the Angel of the LORD appeared to Manoah and his wife. To begin with they thought it was a Man of God with the likeness of the Angel of God, but were afraid to ask His name, or where He came from. As soon as they knew that they had been in the prescence of the Angel of the LORD, THEY REALISED that they just seen God, and were afraid. (Judges 13:22 )
Who, then, was this Man that they came to realise was God?

PSALMS:2 declares that the LORD has a begotten Son and that we should serve the LORD with fear and also kiss (worship) the Son in case He get angry and we perish.
Who is this begotten Son of the LORD (JEHOVAH)??

Christians beleive that the Son of Jehovah in Psalms 2 is the Word who became flesh (Jesus)
Christians beleive that the Man, or Angel of the LORD who appeared to men of old, (and whom they decared to be God), was the Word who became flesh (Jesus).

In the book of the Prophet Zechariah ch. 2:10-11 it reads:

...." for behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst, says the LORD...Then you will know that the LORD of Hosts has sent Me to you."

This verse is impossible to work out as it stands. For how can Jehovah send Jehovah? There are not 2 Jehovahs, yet it clearly states that it is the LORD who is coming to dwell with His people, and that He is being sent by the LORD.

Truly an enigma ! But the Christians beleive that in these verses, God the Father is sending God the Son.
Therfore, these old prophecies were being fulfilled when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
And this is why Jesus could say things like, "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"
And why John could state " we have looked upon..and handled the Word.."

To sum up.
Men in the Old Testament came to the realization that seeing the Angel of the LORD was seeing God Himself.
Christians come to the realization that seeing who Jesus is, is to see Him as LORD and therefore recognize Him as God.


albee

 

[InToTheRain]

Hi Albee,

Jesus used the Old Testament to teach His disciples the truth concerning Himself, and whilst Christians today tend to emphasize the teachings of the N.T, WE CANNOT seperate it from the teachings in the Old Testament.

Maybe this wouldn't be the case had christians not constantly changed the words of god and contaminated with their own limited intelect. Why is it that christians claim it is the word of God who they agree is more superior in every way to anything in existence yet throw some verses or chapters of the bible and exchange it for their own comments. Why do they do this?

In Islam we have only one book which is the Holy Qur'an, it is the foundation for all our understanding and is 100% word of god.

Jacob wrestled with a Man, but then stated "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (Genesis 32:30)
It seems as though Jacob knew that God had visited him as a Man.

Was Jacob preserved? he died didn't he? and if it means we will be preserved spritually (our souls) then is he implying that you have to see God to have your souls preserved? it doesn't make sense.

PSALMS:2 declares that the LORD has a begotten Son and that we should serve the LORD with fear and also kiss (worship) the Son in case He get angry and we perish.
Who is this begotten Son of the LORD (JEHOVAH)??

Your confusing me here, is he the son or God? which one please choose, it can't be both as it defies all reason.

Albee, I have told of one of the reason why trinity is false, and have given you evidence from the Bible, but now you are saying the bible conradicts itself by saying it also says Jesus is God. So the bible as it stands today is only there to confuse the christians with no clear answer is that what you are saying?

Here is another reason why I refuse trinity provided from the Bible itself:

Matthew 27: 46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani! My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you really believe he would call to himself while he was being prosecuted? Of course not, he was calling God. Secondly it also shows that Jesus under the context was Unwilling to go on the cross, are you saying that God is so unmerciful and unjust that he would punish and torture he beloved massenger for the sins of mankind?

Why do you have so much confusion and misinterpretaions in the Bible? one of the reasons I believe is because you are trying to translate it from another language in to english which is a poorly developed language. The english language originated in the 9th century... WAY WAaaaay after Jesus came with his revelations.

This begs the question, what words did they use to describe God. If you look at the old copies of the Bible in Greek form or Hebrew You will find Eli (Allah) bieng described as God. Even in the Torah Allah is refered to as God. This is so that We do not genderise God (as God has no Gender, he is Allah, the Unique, nothing similiar to him, you can compare nothing to him) Because God assumes a male God, Goddess a female god, GOdfather etc. Whereas the word Allah can never be Pluralised as it comes from Root word Ilahi which means The one.

 

[Phil12123]

The word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible, but what it means is indeed taught in the Bible. The concept of trinity came from what the Bible teaches about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each are called "God" in the Bible, and yet, the Bible also teaches that there is only ONE God. So, the THREE are the ONE God. 3 in 1... tri - unity... trinity.

Indeed it is not mentioned in the Bible which apparently is supposed to have bought the whole concept of trinity into existence! BUT GUESS WHAT! The Noble Qur'an mentions it, just another example of how Allah (SWT) tells us of things to come in the Qu'ran:

4:171 O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion nor speak anything about Allah, but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only a messenger of Allah and His word which He communicated to Mary and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you. Allah is only one God. Far be it from His glory to have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as having charge of affairs.

5:73 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Allah is the third of the three. And there is no God but One God. And if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement will surely befall such of them as disbelieve.

Sorry, BUT GUESS WHAT! The Quran doesn't mention the word "Trinity" either, unless you have other verses that do. The two verses you give do NOT mention the word "Trinity". True, the Quran teaches against the biblical teaching of the Trinity, which merely shows that that biblical teaching existed at the time of Muhammad and that he misunderstood it as much as all the Muslims on this board do today. I mean no disrespect by saying that, but it is true. The verse 4:171 says, "Allah is only one God." The Trinity does NOT teach that Allah is THREE Gods, so Muhammad obviously misunderstood it. Christianity has NEVER taught THREE GODS. How many times must we Christians keep saying that? The Mormons may believe that but true Christians have NEVER said that.

Again, verse 5:73 says, "And there is no God but One God." TRUE, TRUE, TRUE. All Christians believe that and have ALWAYS believed that. That quranic verse could just as well be a verse taken right out of Isaiah, like these:

Isaiah 44:
6. "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: `I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.
7. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them.
8. Do not fear, nor be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.' ''

And all those verses merely show what Jews, Christians, and Muslims ALL agree on---that there is only ONE God! And that is the "unity" part of the "tri + unity = trinity" equation. The question comes in the "tri" part, i.e., the nature of the THREE---God (the Father), Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible in different places calls each of them "God", hence trinity. The Quran calls only the first one "God" and teaches that Jesus is just a prophet, messenger, man, etc., not God. The Quran does mention the "holy spirit" but apparently that entity is just part of God and not a separate entity to make at least 2 if not 3.

Peace

 

[Phil12123]

The whole trinity concept does not have any reasoble ground, here is proof provided by the BIBLE that it does not exist.

Mark 13.32: "But of that day or that hour no man knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Now christians say that God is three things yet 1? explain please! 1+1+1 = 1?

Many christians have given me explanations such as saying "for example, I am a father, a son and a husband, therefore I am three things yet I am one, you see?"

BUT when I reply with
"but Mark 13:32 says that Jesus doesn't know what god knows therefore proving they are not the same, If you are a husband, a son and a father,then obviusly if, in this case, the son was told the secret then the father and husband would also know because they are the same person. But Jesus says he doesnt know what GOD knows."

So Mark 13:32 proves trinity is false.

Not really. All it proves is that when Jesus walked the earth in His humbled state, after He had "emptied Himself" (Phil 2:7, NASB), He did not know the day or hour when His Father would send Him back at His Second Coming, because that was a matter that His Father retained as His exclusive perogative and He, Jesus, submitted totally to the Father, even in that matter. It may be a self-imposed limitation, just as the Bible says of God, "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" (Hebrews 10:17). Can God forget our sins? If He wants to, and He is still God.

Or it may be similar to the different roles that husbands and wives have, where one has authority over the other in a certain area, not because the first is any more human than the other, but just because that is the way God has ordained it and so one yields to the other in accordance with that. Similarly, the Son yields to the Father in the matter of when the Father will send the Son back, etc., but that does not prove they don't both have the same essence, substance, or nature---Deity---any more than the husband and wife don't have the same essence, substance, or nature---human.

Peace

 

[i_m_tipu]

I fell annoying day by day to see people giving reference of bible

Many of the word of every version has some opposite word in the other version

It’s so confusing so mixed.

I fell very sorry for the follower of bible.

Now a day follower of the bible starting to believe only that word of bible
Which makes some of their(some releigious leaders/allahu alim) thought stand firm.

does not it says
they creating their own bible

 

[DigitalStorm82]

Respect others if you want them to respect you.

 

[InToTheRain]

Not really. All it proves is that when Jesus walked the earth in His humbled state, after He had "emptied Himself" (Phil 2:7, NASB).

I am confused by what you in all honesty. You say Jesus "Emtied himself"? what does that mean?
You say His father would send him back, therefore he is the son now which means he is not a God (because God is his father), am I correct? Which is Jesus, the Begotten Son of god, or God? he can't be both as it defies all rational explanation in trying to establish a relationship.

Why is it that jesus never says once in any of the Bibles "worship me" or "I am God"? Or do you think God plays games with us, hides the truth and puts in a form such that its hard to understand what he means.

If the christians truly believed the Bible is the word of God, why do they have so many version proliferated by Human words, what gives a human the right to change Gods words and challenge his supreme Intellect and understanding?

Or it may be similar to the different roles that husbands and wives have, where one has authority over the other in a certain area, not because the first is any more human than the other, but just because that is the way God has ordained it and so one yields to the other in accordance with that. Similarly, the Son yields to the Father in the matter of when the Father will send the Son back, etc., but that does not prove they don't both have the same essence, substance, or nature---Deity---any more than the husband and wife don't have the same essence, substance, or nature---human.

Peace

:? If you are saying the relationship between God and Jesus is similiar to that of two completely diffrent individuals (Husband and wife) then yes I agree, they are completely diffrent from one another. God can't be compared with anything, he is unique.

 

[InToTheRain]

Sorry, BUT GUESS WHAT! The Quran doesn't mention the word "Trinity" either, unless you have other verses that do. The two verses you give do NOT mention the word "Trinity". True, the Quran teaches against the biblical teaching of the Trinity, which merely shows that that biblical teaching existed at the time of Muhammad and that he misunderstood it as much as all the Muslims on this board do today. I mean no disrespect by saying that, but it is true. The verse 4:171 says, "Allah is only one God." The Trinity does NOT teach that Allah is THREE Gods, so Muhammad obviously misunderstood it. Christianity has NEVER taught THREE GODS. How many times must we Christians keep saying that? The Mormons may believe that but true Christians have NEVER said that.

Again, verse 5:73 says, "And there is no God but One God." TRUE, TRUE, TRUE. All Christians believe that and have ALWAYS believed that. That quranic verse could just as well be a verse taken right out of Isaiah, like these:

Isaiah 44:
6. "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: `I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.
7. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them.

Thanks for the brining my attention to some beautiful verses in the Bible :brother:
Indeed there no God but Allah (SWT) and this verse proves there is only one God, not some one who conjures up a mental picture, he is not comparable to anything.

Jesus Never claimed to be God, and mentioned several times that he is a providing instructions as means to prepare yourself for your final destination to God, Here are some verse from the Bible to reflect upon:

"Not every one that says to me(Jesus); 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven."
Matthew.7:21

Peace.

 

[Joe98]

Indeed there no God but Allah and this verse proves there is only one God...

If there were a god his name would be "Mars".

 

[albee]

Greetings to you

Maybe this wouldn't be the case had christians not constantly changed the words of god and contaminated with their own limited intelect. Why is it that christians claim it is the word of God who they agree is more superior in every way to anything in existence yet throw some verses or chapters of the bible and exchange it for their own comments. Why do they do this?

It is true that Christians, as well as all mankind of any faith,have their own limited intelect. God wants us to understand what He teaches in His Word (the Bible), but without the God-given ability to reason, and comment on Scripture we would not understand the teaching.
A very simple example of what I mean is as follows.

In Isaiah 55:12, it is written "...the mountains and the hills shall break forth into singing before you, and all the trees of the fields shall clap their hands"

God never wanted us to take this literally, for to do so we would have to beleive that trees have hands. Therefore, God expects us to use our own reasoning and comments to understand the truth that He is saying, and by doing so, we understand this verse to mean "a coming time of such peace and joy, that the whole of creation exists in harmony together. A literal time of Paradise on earth" (my words).
I do not consider myself to be some great Bible scholar, but neither do I beleive that by using my own comments, I have "contaminated" Gods Truth with my "limited intelect"
This is a very basic example of why we use Bible verses, but put them into our own words at times. It does not take away the Truth, but opens up Truths teachings.

Was Jacob preserved? he died didn't he? and if it means we will be preserved spritually (our souls) then is he implying that you have to see God to have your souls preserved? it doesn't make sense.

Yes, Jacobs life was preserved at that time. Also, yes,the time came when Jacob was to die. My original point was that Jacob had seen a Man, who was the Angel of the LORD, and Jacob knew that he had actually seen God.
But, we also beleive that through his faith in God, Jacobs soul was preserved, although his physical body returned to the dust.

Your confusing me here, is he the son or God? which one please choose, it can't be both as it defies all reason.

I do understand your comment that it defies all reason. Again, to try and piut it simply.

My father is fully human.As a child I lived under his authority and In a sense I could say that my father is a greater man than myself. But in my humanity I am as FULLY HUMAN as my father.

We beleive that God is a Father, and He has a Son. By using the above reasoning (although poor), the Son of the Father is as FULLY GOD as His Father is.
I am as fully human as my father.We are both Human. Jesus is as fully God as His Father. They are BOTH God, but they are NOT two Gods

Albee, I have told of one of the reason why trinity is false, and have given you evidence from the Bible, but now you are saying the bible conradicts itself by saying it also says Jesus is God. So the bible as it stands today is only there to confuse the christians with no clear answer is that what you are saying?

I once disbelived the Trinity doctrine. And as no man could prove it to me then, I can not prove it to you now. I also used to think that the Bible contradicted itself. I no longer think that. I used to think that the Bible was confusing, and that Christians had no clear answers.
Now, I realise that I was happy to think that the Bible contradicted itself, for that gave me some justification for my unbeleif in Christ.
I now realise that it was myself who was confused with no clear answers. My own pride and arrogance. My own inner resentment of being told i needed Gods forgiveness. My own mockery of Jesus Christ, each time I abused His name.
All these things kept me in darkness, and it was only as I gradually accepted that I was wrong that the Truth of Scripture started to become clear (or maybe it was the other way round).
The Trinity concept is still a mystery to me, but I have still come to beleive it, as the Truth in the Bible has been made clearer to me. It is something that we Christians beleive to be true, but it remains beyond our human comprehension.

Here is another reason why I refuse trinity provided from the Bible itself:

Matthew 27: 46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani! My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you really believe he would call to himself while he was being prosecuted? Of course not, he was calling God. Secondly it also shows that Jesus under the context was Unwilling to go on the cross, are you saying that God is so unmerciful and unjust that he would punish and torture he beloved massenger for the sins of mankind?

Jesus was calling upon His Father. This has to be true, because Jesus always refferred to His Father as being God. But by making this claim, and using the illustration that I have previously used, Jesus, the Son of God was as fully God as His Father is. Do not be mistaken that we beleive this was one God calling upon another God. It was the Son calling upon His Father. And Jesus Himself claimed that He and the Father were ONE. And that the Father dwelt in the Son, and the Son dwelt in the Father.
The work done on the Cross was a Sacred Work The Son was fulfilling the Fathers will. It was the Son who gave His life as a ransom for many. Because He had come from Heaven and taken the form of a man, it was in the context of being a Man, that Jesus stuggled to accept that He was going to be tortured and crucified. But as the Son of the Father, He was also intent upon doing His Fathers will.
The fact that Jesus cried out " Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!" goes beyond our understanding, for in this Sacred Moment in history, in a way we do not grasp, the Father withdrew His Prescence from His Son. For the only time in Eternity the Son was completely alone,and facing the jaws of death.
Is there any wonder He called out these words with a loud voice? This was His experience of complete and utter solitude and desertion. This is why our Bible teaches that God understands every human experience, and that Jesus has been tempted in every possible way that anyone of us can be tempted.

In answer to the part highlighted in red:

Nowhere does the Bible teach that God punished His Messenger.What it does teach is that it was men who claimed to beleive in the Almighty, but did not beleive that Jesus was who He said He was that called for Him to be punished and crucified.
I wonder if you or I (who did not once beleive that Jesus is the Christ) would have also called for His crucifixion had we been living in those days?
For the Bible gives a bigger picture. It is a disturbing one, for it shows that every one of us is and was partly responsible for the death of Jesus.
The men that had held Jesus captive, blinfolded Him, started hitting Him aroound the face, and then taunted Him by asking " if you are the Christ, then prophecy and tell us which one of us has smote (hit) you."

Jesus did not answer them. But He didnt have to, because many years previuos isaiah had already prophecied that "He was wounded for our transgressions and He was bruised for our iniquities"
We were the reason Jesus was beaten and put to death, not just those who carried out the actual act.

Please do not put words into my mouth, by inferring that I suggest God is unmerciful and unjust.
It is because God is pure in His justice, that on the Day of Judgement His Justice will sentence all men. He has declared His hatred for sin. He has decalred that all sinners will be punished . As we have all sinned, Christian and Muslim alike, we will all come under Divine Justice. There is no escape (or is there?) The only JUST JUDGE will not let some off at the expense of others (for that would be unjust). We can do nothing in this life to "earn" any rights to be let off.
But it is because God is All- Merciful that He has implemented a Way for us to escape His Divine Justice. His own Son died for our sins, and if we beleive this and ask Gods forgiveness He will IMMEDIATELY forgive us. Because He is Just, He will not judge us for the things that His Son has already given His life for.
This is what people cannot grasp. That because God is so merciful, and loves us so much, He gave His Son to die for our sins, so that He would NOT have to Judge us. Our sins have already been dealt with because Jesus gave up His life and shed His own Blood.
This is Gods way of letting us escape from the Judgement that lies ahead.





Albee