Question for teh boys!..!..

[Cabdullahi]

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[Cabdullahi]

....................................................

 

[Muhammad]

There is absolutely no essential correlation between the level of iman one has and the way they choose to style the hair on their face.

This is not true - eemaan is not something limited to one's heart, rather it is also expressed by means of utterance of the tongue and actions of the limbs. Therefore, the actions of a person can give some indication about their eemaan, even an action like letting facial hair grow. However, as we all seem to agree, we must be cautious here because the assumption could be true and in the person's favour, or be wrong because the person might be lacking a great deal.

On the other hand, if there is no action, there is most likely no assumption in that person's favour to begin with.

Perhaps people assume bearded brothers are more God-conscious and do not indulge in bad behaviour as much as others because they have seen something associated with God-consciousness and therefore assume accordingly.

Allaah (swt) knows best.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

thats not true and if it is it will be rare.. btw it don't give you a right to judge people who have a beard or a woman who wears the hijab.

i hope your not implying about modestly dressed muslim women also[/B]

If you don't think it's true, pay a visit to any majority Muslim country. And about judgement, if you took the time to read my previous post, I said the same thing you said. You can't judge a person based on a beard or hijab or lack thereof which I feel is what bro Bedouin did.

What is the part I have highlighted even mean and what does it have to do with what I said?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

This is not true - eemaan is not something limited to one's heart, rather it is also expressed by means of utterance of the tongue and actions of the limbs. Therefore, the actions of a person can give some indication about their eemaan, even an action like letting facial hair grow. However, as we all seem to agree, we must be cautious here because the assumption could be true and in the person's favour, or be wrong because the person might be lacking a great deal.

On the other hand, if there is no action, there is most likely no assumption in that person's favour to begin with.

Perhaps people assume bearded brothers are more God-conscious and do not indulge in bad behaviour as much as others because they have seen something associated with God-consciousness and therefore assume accordingly.

Allaah (swt) knows best.

No one is saying Iman is limited to the heart. I am plainly saying that beards are a bad litmus test for it. Like I have repeated before, take the Muslim world for example. Almost everyone has a beard, yet how good of a test is the beard for character?

A more reliable way or discerning Iman, as if that was our job in the first place, is if the bro prays five times a day, refrains from cursing, does charity etc etc. My point is that having a beard by virtue of it being so easily acquired without effort on the part of the individual is a BAD test of iman. People imitate other people, people wear stuff to fit in, because their parents told them to, etc etc.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Good thing you said your opinion is not worth much here, brother. You're right. Why? You've misunderstood and misrepresented what I meant. Go back and read it again. Did I say having beard is the be all and end all of what constitutes iman?

Did I suggest the sister look for someone that lacks ilm, taqwa and understanding of the deen but go for the one that has beard alone? No. That would be absurd.

I said, if a guy doesn't have beard specifically for the following reasons: "due to thinking it is not necessary/not from the deen/not worth anything".

Let me refresh your memory since the order of your posts disagrees with you. Regardless if what you said is actually what you felt, then you might want to organize your posts better for clarity.

Each has their own criteria but someone not keeping a sunnah beard (which is actually near compulsory) due to thinking it is not necessary/not from the deen/not worth anything means this person is far from being perfect. I wouldn't recommend such a person for marriage to a God conscious and Islamically focused muslimah.

This was NOT your response to the conditions you just mentioned. You said that in response to this:

^No again... I know keepin a beard is sunnah buh if prince charmin were to come along & he was perfect in every way buh jus didn't have a beard, I wouldn't turn him down..

A guy whos perfect in everyway but you'd advise against him because of the beard :?

We all know beard is an essential part of Islam as is donning hijab. There's a difference if someone doesn't wear these for perfectly acceptable reasons: e.g. fear of attack/discrimination or maybe even prohibited by parents if they're young, even if they don't wear it at the present time and plan to later on, I wouldn't mind that, as long as they don't go on to say it is worthless and pointless. That IS wrong and such a person is contemptable. No question about it.

No one said it was worthless. I said a lack thereof is not an OK reason to dismiss an otherwise perfectly fine suitor.

My response is in red.

 

[cat eyes]

If you don't think it's true, pay a visit to any majority Muslim country. And about judgement, if you took the time to read my previous post, I said the same thing you said. You can't judge a person based on a beard or hijab or lack thereof which I feel is what bro Bedouin did.

What is the part I have highlighted even mean and what does it have to do with what I said?

majority of muslims countries? which ones.. where are you hearing all this from brother if you don't mind me asking?

I Just thought if you feel so strongly about muslims having a beard i hope you don't think anything bad about sisters dressing islamically that is all. :><:

Ramadhan kareemeace:

 

[Alpha Dude]

You can't judge a person based on a beard or hijab or lack thereof which I feel is what bro Bedouin did.

Bro, did you read my post in response to you? Your assumption is false. This is not what I meant. Put simply: beard is wajib (sinful if left) and praisworthy if kept. So if somebody attaches no virtue to keeping a beard, holds it to be pointless, then that is wrong behaviour (obviously because he is i. denying the correct Islamic position and ii. undermining the importance of sunnah) and I wouldn't recommend him to any sister who wants a strong muslim husband (since it would be his job to guide her - how would he do that if he himself is on shaky grounds?).

In saying that, if somebody is clean shaven yet does hold that the beard is important and that he would be sinful if he left it, then who can fault him? As long he doesn't rubbish it and knows that he is in the wrong to shave and hopes to one day at least let it grow.

So the question becomes, who is better for the God conscious sister that wants to gain Allah's pleasure out of these three options?

Option a: The brother that attaches importance to sunnah and has a beard (let's not talk about all the other stuff e.g. good character/taqwa etc, assume that is a given in all options, for the sake of argument. I.e. assume that all 3 of these hypothetical brothers have these good attributes).

Option b: The brother that attaches no significance to sunnah and has not beard and doesn't intend to.

Option c: The brother that does attach significance to sunnah but for some reason is unable to keep it at the present time (could be for any reason).

It's obvious that Option a is the best choice for such a sister. Then Option c. Option b ought to be disregarded completely.

Note: My initial post that you picked on had a context. It wasn't just a 'beard ftw' rant. The context was that the sister asked about there being a hypothetical 'perfect' guy who doesn't have a beard. I answered such a person couldn't possibly be perfect on the condition that he held something wajib (i.e. sinful if neglected) to be useless/not needed.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

majority of muslims countries? which ones.. where are you hearing all this from brother if you don't mind me asking?

I Just thought if you feel so strongly about muslims having a beard i hope you don't think anything bad about sisters dressing islamically that is all. :><:



Ramadhan kareemeace:

I dont mind you asking. I am saying that in countries with mostly Muslim populations, most people have beards. Yet many people there still commit crimes or have problems just like the rest of us. You can't tell a single thing about their iman by looking at the beard. You have to look at actions. The same goes for young bros with beards. How do you know their parents arent forcing them to wear it? Look for a better indicator like praying 5 times a day and charity etc etc

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Bro, did you read my post in response to you? Your assumption is false. This is not what I meant. Put simply: beard is wajib (sinful if left) and praisworthy if kept. So if somebody attaches no virtue to keeping a beard, holds it to be pointless, then that is wrong behaviour (obviously because he is i. denying the correct Islamic position and ii. undermining the importance of sunnah) and I wouldn't recommend him to any sister who wants a strong muslim husband (since it would be his job to guide her - how would he do that if he himself is on shaky grounds?).

In saying that, if somebody is clean shaven yet does hold that the beard is important and that he would be sinful if he left it, then who can fault him? As long he doesn't rubbish it and knows that he is in the wrong to shave and hopes to one day at least let it grow.

So the question becomes, who is better for the God conscious sister that wants to gain Allah's pleasure out of these three options?

Option a: The brother that attaches importance to sunnah and has a beard (let's not talk about all the other stuff e.g. good character/taqwa etc, assume that is a given in all options, for the sake of argument. I.e. assume that all 3 of these hypothetical brothers have these good attributes).

Option b: The brother that attaches no significance to sunnah and has not beard and doesn't intend to.

Option c: The brother that does attach significance to sunnah but for some reason is unable to keep it at the present time (could be for any reason).

It's obvious that Option a is the best choice for such a sister. Then Option c. Option b ought to be disregarded completely.

Note: My initial post that you picked on had a context. It wasn't just a 'beard ftw' rant. The context was that the sister asked about there being a hypothetical 'perfect' guy who doesn't have a beard. I answered such a person couldn't possibly be perfect on the condition that he held something wajib (i.e. sinful if neglected) to be useless/not needed.

OR option D: The brother who has a beard and yet does not know as much about Islam/ or pray as much/ etc as option C.

It would be difficult indeed to differentiate B and C and decide who is better since everyone has unique circumstances.

Now my point was that, from reading the post that you responded to initially and your subsequent response, a beard should be at the bottom of the list underneath praying ontime, good manners, knowledge about Islam, all of which would be better indicators of a good suitor than a beard.

What is the point of the beard if it doesn't have an effect on manners and actions? Sunna it is and a good thing to have, you need to judge by what it's supposed to create in the person.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I think all of you are confusing each other. It’s Ramadan!
When the brother says Muslim countries, he means men who do have beard just for sake of having it (due to their environment or to deceive people), whilst are aggressive, violent, thugs and drink alcohol or those with bread who are selfish, rich and arrogant. All of which does exist.

And please do think of the brothers that can’t have a beard due to genetic or medical reasons. Hence: I wouldn’t turn down the brother without a beard. I would ask him whether he would grow one or why he can’t. So in actual fact, you can’t quickly assume brother without beard are low in their iman or are bad person when they may not have one for valid reasons.

 

[cat eyes]

I dont mind you asking. I am saying that in countries with mostly Muslim populations, most people have beards. Yet many people there still commit crimes or have problems just like the rest of us. You can't tell a single thing about their iman by looking at the beard. You have to look at actions. The same goes for young bros with beards. How do you know their parents arent forcing them to wear it? Look for a better indicator like praying 5 times a day and charity etc etc

i agree with you yeh but at the same time you can't be suspicious and wondering about whether there doing there 5times pray and giving to charity etc etc

when i see a brother with a beard, i always say mashallah because i really admire it and i don't feel this way about clean shaven men because over here id always see them dating non muslim women and going to clubs an all sorts.

of course i kno there not all like that but you won't find a muslim with a beard in a club drinking alcohol with his mates and eying up all the girls:muddlehea

 

[Alpha Dude]

OR option D: The brother who has a beard and yet does not know as much about Islam/ or pray as much/ etc as option C.

It would be difficult indeed to differentiate B and C and decide who is better since everyone has unique circumstances.

Now my point was that, from reading the post that you responded to initially and your subsequent response, a beard should be at the bottom of the list underneath praying ontime, good manners, knowledge about Islam, all of which would be better indicators of a good suitor than a beard.

Are you feeling okay? B is a loser of a muslim. Nobody can deny something that is wajib and still be considered 'good'.

What is the point of the beard if it doesn't have an effect on manners and actions? Sunna it is and a good thing to have, you need to judge by what it's supposed to create in the person.

Now THIS is a ludicrous thing to say. First go learn what sunnah means and why it is important. Any act of sunnah, not just beard.

Why do you have acts within wudhu that are not considered wajib/fard and only sunnah? Why do them? Come to think of it, how does wudhu by itself make a person better or reciting Arabic words. :exhausted

Anyway, regarding post order. Why are you making this so hard?

Let's go through it step by step then, shall we.

Crazylady:

^No again... I know keepin a beard is sunnah buh if prince charmin were to come along & he was perfect in every way buh jus didn't have a beard, I wouldn't turn him down..
​

Bedouin (I've bolded the relevant bit):

Each has their own criteria but someone not keeping a sunnah beard (which is actually near compulsory) due to thinking it is not necessary/not from the deen/not worth anything means this person is far from being perfect. I wouldn't recommend such a person for marriage to a God conscious and Islamically focused muslimah.
​

AntiKarateKid quoting my above post ^:

In my humble opinion (which may not be worth much)
​

this is a ludicrous statement. Do you have any idea how many guys have beards because their parents forced them? Or because they just wanted to avoid people making assumptions about their iman like you? Or just follow the crowd without any knowledge of its significance? All are for the wrong reasons.

Both these types are extremely prevalent and as common as the hijabi who wears it just because her parents wear it. There is absolutely no essential correlation between the level of iman one has and the way they choose to style the hair on their face. What gives you the right to assume otherwise? Go to any Muslim country and see the amount of beardies drinking alcohol, at the club, or even guess what? There are also those foolish terrorists in the mountains with HUGE beards

It is exactly these types of judgmental comments that make people shy away from Muslim gatherings because they don't fit physical standards. Do you seriously believe a beard is some sort of litmus test for iman?!

I never automatically assume a hijabi is more pious than a non hijabi because I don't know the intentions or context behind their actions. In a day and age where even saying Allah or praying shows courage, it is shocking to me how you could just ruin a guy's image infront a potential wife with your assumptions.
​

Now understand that is you that has misunderstood and my post is not 'disorganised'.

 

[Alpha Dude]

I think all of you are confusing each other. It’s Ramadan!
When the brother says Muslim countries, he means men who do have beard just for sake of having it (due to their environment or to deceive people), whilst are aggressive, violent, thugs and drink alcohol or those with bread who are selfish, rich and arrogant. All of which does exist.

And please do think of the brothers that can’t have a beard due to genetic or medical reasons. Hence: I wouldn’t turn down the brother without a beard. I would ask him whether he would grow one or why he can’t. So in actual fact, you can’t quickly assume brother without beard are low in their iman or are bad person when they may not have one for valid reasons.

Why are you guys being so silly?

Nobody here is suggesting that we look down upon those that don't have beard! It is when they classify keeping the beard as unimportant and worthless that we deem unacceptable.

 

[~Raindrop~]

Bedouin, you can shout that out till you're blue in the face, but I have a feeling it'll still be misunderstood.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Why are you guys being so silly?

Nobody here is suggesting that we look down upon those that don't have beard! It is when they classify keeping the beard as unimportant and worthless that we deem unacceptable.

Okay


I was talking in general, not specifically towards anyone. I shall stay out of this.
:hiding:

 

[Soulja Girl]

Meh.. I didn't fink it'd get this heated.. :hiding: thanks for the laugh though.. xD

Bedouin, you can shout that out till you're blue in the face, but I have a feeling it'll still be misunderstood.

^LOL

:wa:

 

[Alpha Dude]

Ramadan kareem.

It is better this debate didn't go on. It's pointless. Sorry if anyone was offended by my words.

Wassalaam

 

[tango92]

has there ever been a discussion thread that didnt turn into a fight?

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I think the shaytan is playing with all us.