Question For The Non-muslims

[Trumble]

Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?

Most certainly not. If I agreed with that I would be a muslim!

There is no empirical evidence and therefore it is unreasonable to believe in something based on faith.

I don't believe in a creator God either, but we both believe in a great many things based solely on faith! So does everybody else.

For example, think of whatever system of morals (even if purely your own) that you happen to live by. What 'empirical evidence' is there that that code is 'right', or indeed anything other than plain 'wrong'? Surely you wouldn't claim you are a 'moral' person simply on the grounds that as you have managed to stay out of jail (assuming you have) you must be?

 

[Skavau]

For example, think of whatever system of morals (even if purely your own) that you happen to live by. What 'empirical evidence' is there that that code is 'right', or indeed anything other than plain 'wrong'? Surely you wouldn't claim you are a 'moral' person simply on the grounds that as you have managed to stay out of jail (assuming you have) you must be?

Morality does not 'exist' as objects do. Morality is the search for what is right and what is wrong. There is conflict over what is right and what is wrong. Everyone will base their morals on reasoning. (i.e: I believe it is wrong to murder because it is an infliction on another autonomous human's right to exist willingly.)

The only assumption made here is the assumption that morality is important, but that doesn't require evidence in the way that the assumption that something exists does. Morality requires evidence showing that is is reasonable to apply it (in whichever form) and human history has shown that morality is needed to create a stable human society.

My own moral ideology come from the reasoning that Libertarianism uses, which is 'you have the right to do as you will, providing that does not inflict upon others'. I base it as this:

The Line of Evil
This is the purpose for the application of morality in my view, and why it is necessary.

1. An Individual inflicts upon someone elses right with no justification, or little basis for justification. This is the action.
2. The result of the Infliction of an individual's rights is one which can cause suffering, whether physical or emotional. This is the personal result.
3. The result of suffering is the result of a negative within the society. This is the collective result.
4. This result of the infliction causes suffering. This is Evil.

If 1 does not cause either 2, or 3 it is still an evil. If 2 or 3 is caused from other means, then it is a mistake (therefore morally neutral in purpose) or it is an unhuman in purpose (nature, or if you profess the believe - supernatural)

 

[snakelegs]

Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?

i would say yes, it is the most likely. however, i am well aware that this is simply a belief about what is, in essence, unknowable.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?

Of course not.

Since God is complet conjecture, there is very little about God, or Gods you could say that we would all agree on. There may be many Gods and they all may be imperfect. And the creator of the unvierse (if there even was one) may not still exist, may not be imortal, and may not be a God.

 

[Pygoscelis]

All morality can be explained by self interest, primarily via two vehicles, custom and empathy.

People follow custom because they wish to be accepted in society. Being accepted in society gives people a world of benefit that one lacks if they are outcasted.

Empathy is seeing yourself in others and "feeling" their pain. The part of the brain that is activated when you are in pain is the same part of the brain that is activated when you observe something similar to yourself in pain. So you are motivated to stop or avoid both. And the more that something in pain is similar to yourself, the more you are motivated to stop it.

This is why we tend to care more abut people we know than those we don't, why we care more about family than strangers, a big part of why racism exists too (until you live amongst those who at first glance seem alien to you that is).

Compounded on empathy and custom is simple barefaced self interest (you oppose murder also because you don't want to be killed).

When you boil it all down, there is no aspect of morality that can not be explained by self interest. None of this requires faith - at least not comparable to religious faith.

 

[martynmadeley]

I do not accept Islam because i have read the quran. I am a christian and i have also read the Bible and the bible says thou shalt not kill although the quran allows this.

also it says that a man can beat his wife

it says that god chooses your guidence i.e. wether you believe or do not believe is by the leave of god when that is unfair it should be upto the individual

people will have an eternal punishment in the bible there is no such punoshment the only punishment is death

 

[AbuAbdallah]

it says that god chooses your guidence i.e. wether you believe or do not believe is by the leave of god when that is unfair it should be upto the individual

First of all, God is in control of everything. Secondly, it is up to everyone to believe because no one knows if God chose them to believe or not. We are all given the choice whether or not to believe, in the end whichever the individual chooses is because God willed it.

I do not accept Islam because i have read the quran. I am a christian and i have also read the Bible and the bible says thou shalt not kill although the quran allows this

I guess the Crusades as well as the Spanish Inquisition were not based on Christianity then.

 

[wilberhum]

I feel that our existence here is more than enough proof.
Is it by chance that:

Earth is the only planet with conditions just perfect enough to be able to sustain humans.

Humans are far more intelligent than any other creature known to man, no other creature even comes close, no missing link?

A smile is known worldwide for happiness, a tear is known worldwide for sadness.

Just look all around you.
Had the molecular structure and the hydrogen bonds of water been a little different, then no life would survive on earth.

Had the Earth's orbit been changed just by a matter of degrees, then we would either freeze or burn to death.

Who tells the biological cells how to operate, did a mitochondria or a nucleus or DNA do it's specified job just by chance?

When I look at the world around us it is more then enough proof just through the perfection of how everything operates.

Just look at how different we humans are from the animals. This should hopefully wipe out any if's.

Someone rolls a thousand dice. Later someone else enters the room and says:

[PIE]Look a thousand dice. Not 999 or 1001, exactly 1000. See how many 6’s there are? What is the chance of that happening? Look how close that bunch of dice are to each other. In that spot over there, 5 dice are touching. What is the chance of all these dice ending up just like that? You could throw the dice a million times and never come up with this combination. There is no chance that this just happened and it is proof that there is a god. [/PIE]
Right! It is just the same old watchmaker theory that falls every time.

If an asteroid had not hit the earth 75 million years ago, we might be arguing whether or not we evolved from six toed lizards.

If the Earth didn’t have conditions that were just perfect enough to be able to sustain humans we wouldn’t be here. You work on what I conceder a false dilemma. You think that our being here is all part of some grand plan.
I think it is just evolution and happen chance.

 

[cali dude]

Why ask why not Islam? Why does it have to be Islam? If anything, Sikhi is perfection. So everyone who seeks perfection is a Sikh.

 

[cali dude]

When I come onto this forum I come with the hope of learning about Islam and hopefully reverting. But the more I read into Islam the more I find things that I diasgree with.

Hopefully reverting? I am so glad that you found the truth. I personally don't know why Muslims call it reverting. Do they assume all people were Muslim at one point and gotten away from Islam, but when they convert back to Islam, they are reverting?

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

We believe everyone is born Muslim i.e. in Submission to God. If u want to ask questions, ask it straight forward.

 

[SATalha]

Hopefully reverting? I am so glad that you found the truth. I personally don't know why Muslims call it reverting. Do they assume all people were Muslim at one point and gotten away from Islam, but when they convert back to Islam, they are reverting?

Exactly

 

[AbuAbdallah]

Someone rolls a thousand dice. Later someone else enters the room and says:


Look a thousand dice. Not 999 or 1001, exactly 1000. See how many 6’s there are? What is the chance of that happening? Look how close that bunch of dice are to each other. In that spot over there, 5 dice are touching. What is the chance of all these dice ending up just like that? You could throw the dice a million times and never come up with this combination. There is no chance that this just happened and it is proof that there is a god.


Right! It is just the same old watchmaker theory that falls every time.

If an asteroid had not hit the earth 75 million years ago, we might be arguing whether or not we evolved from six toed lizards.

If the Earth didn’t have conditions that were just perfect enough to be able to sustain humans we wouldn’t be here. You work on what I conceder a false dilemma. You think that our being here is all part of some grand plan.
I think it is just evolution and happen chance.

The perfection of our creation is far more complex than just throwing dice and being amazed at how they land. Why can't an animal even think about how it was created, but us humans are so different, so much more advanced? Chance? No way. A better example would be that everyone on this forum won the lottery without even buying a lottery ticket. Impossible. Same way that it is impossible for a working human body to be slapped together by chance.

 

[wilberhum]

The perfection of our creation is far more complex

Perfection?
Earth quacks, drought, floods, hurricanes, twosomes, and volcanic eruptions, how much more perfect can it get? :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:

 

[wilberhum]

Why can't an animal even think about how it was created,

Because there brains arn't big enough.

You are still operating on the assumption that this is the result of some grand plan.

 

[AbuAbdallah]

Earth quacks, drought, floods, hurricanes, twosomes, and volcanic eruptions, how much more perfect can it get?

I was specifically referring to the human body.

Because there brains arn't big enough.

Exactly! Why doesn't any other animal come close, why hasn't any other animal evolved to our level?

We do have a common ancestor, and that is Adam (alheyisalam)kay:

 

[wilberhum]

I was specifically referring to the human body.

Is Cancer, birth defects, club foot, blindness, deafness, and hermaphrodites, some of the perfections you were talking about?

why hasn't any other animal evolved to our level?

I assume some day after we have destroyed ourselves some intelligent life form will evolve. At one time nature tried big bodies; big bran was bound to come along. It is called evolution.

 

[جوري]

big bran was bound to come along. It is called evolution.

What if you are allergic to "bran" as some members who shall remain nameless on occasion have demonstrated a serious rxn? what will come along then and what will we call it? Can you go on a gliadin free diet and evolve in an ant eater?

 

[wilberhum]

What if you are allergic to "bran" as some members who shall remain nameless on occasion have demonstrated a serious rxn? what will come along then and what will we call it? Can you go on a gliadin free diet and evolve in an ant eater?

Oh my, pettie pettie. :grumbling :happy:

 

[Trumble]

Exactly! Why doesn't any other animal come close, why hasn't any other animal evolved to our level?

What's so great about man? Our 'level' of what? Our capacity for violence and self destruction? Our capacity to destroy our own environment? Our unique arrogance and selfishness? Or just our capacity to be miserable pretty much most of the time? Sometimes I, only half jokingly, think that the world would be a much better place if the wonderful 'creation' that is man was wiped out overnight and replaced by a more responsible species.

And as to some species we really have no idea what "level" they have evolved to because we have no real basis for comparison. What about cetaceans for example? Perhaps the only reason they have never developed (simple, I'm not making a case for equal intelligence) technology is because they simply didn't need it. And its a tad difficult to discover fire underwater!