Question to Nicola and other Christians

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czgibson said:
So if god spoke through man, presumably god wouldn't have made a mistake or contradicted himself, so do the contradictions arise due to the fault of man, do you think?

Peace
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It's me again.
I had to ponder that question all the way to the shops and back. :rollseyes

Imagine I had a vision from God. How would he converse with me? In English? German? Aramaic?
I don't know, but I believe that God would speak directly to my soul, or into my heart, at a spiritual level, whatever you want to call it.
The next day, I want to tell people about it: "CZGibson, imagine what?! God spoke to me last night ...!" But to pass on God's message it has to be processed by my human brain, and put into human words to express God's words in human terms.
Hard as I may try, yes, I believe I would weaken God's words.

So, if that's what you were asking, yes, a divine message will be weakened in some way when it is given through the mouth of humans. Presumably that has to be true of the Bible as well as the Qu'ran.
However, despite this people believe that the message (inside the human words) remains to be from God and is relevant and true ... always!

It's the best way I can put it, I think.
What do you make of it?

Peace.
 
Greetings,
glo said:
But to pass on God's message it has to be processed by my human brain, and put into human words to express God's words in human terms.[/I]
Hard as I may try, yes, I believe I would weaken God's words.
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This is how I imagined you might respond.

So, if that's what you were asking, yes, a divine message will be weakened in some way when it is given through the mouth of humans. Presumably that has to be true of the Bible as well as the Qu'ran.
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I could be wrong (and there are plenty of people here who can correct me if I am!), but I think Muslims believe that Allah dictated the Qur'an through Gabriel to Muhammad (pbuh) in Arabic, so Arabic is a special language in Islam. The Qur'an is supposed to be god's word, direct, word for word. (If a Muslim member can confirm this, that would be great.)

However, despite this people believe that the message (inside the human words) remains to be from God and is relevant and true ... always!
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I can accept that. The factual details may be at variance with one another occasionally, but the Christian moral message is generally clear. I say 'generally' because of the obvious differences between Old and New Testament morality.

It's the best way I can put it, I think.
What do you make of it?
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As you'd expect, me being an atheist, my own view of divine inspiration is different from yours, but thank you for clarifying what it is you believe.

Peace
 
glo said:
For me as a Christian it is entirely irrelevant.
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For me as a non-Christian, it is too. None of those contradictions (which they certainly seem to be) are of any importance, or relevance to the real message of the Gospels. In other words, who cares if they carried a staff, or not? What difference does it make to the teachings of Jesus? Those are what are important, not trivia.
 
Trumble said:
For me as a non-Christian, it is too. None of those contradictions (which they certainly seem to be) are of any importance, or relevance to the real message of the Gospels. In other words, who cares if they carried a staff, or not? What difference does it make to the teachings of Jesus? Those are what are important, not trivia.
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Thanks for your reply, Trumble.
BTW, I like your lotus flower. :)

Peace.
 
If i understood correct this contradictions could have the root in the fact they were written 70 years laters after when they happened. Off course, after 70 years the human brain is giving errors.
 
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glo said:
Hard as I may try, yes, I believe I would weaken God's words.

So, if that's what you were asking, yes, a divine message will be weakened in some way when it is given through the mouth of humans. Presumably that has to be true of the Bible as well as the Qu'ran.
.
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In islam its different. Allah used gabriel to convey the message to Muhammed PBUH, and it was written down and the companions learnt it off by heart. This ensured it never changed, to save it from human errors. (Hope that clarifies CzGibson)

Can i ask though, if you honestly believe and accept there to be errors in the Bible, why do you believe God allowed it to happen?

Peace
 
Greetings and peace Moss,

Whilst the Bible is written by many people, I believe that God retained the power to edit the Bible in the way that he desired. It is for each one of us who reads the Bible to search for his message and strive to live by his commands.

If you have a need to read the Bible then I humbly suggest that you search for a greatest good meaning when you read it. If you read it with the intention of searching for contradictions and lies then you will gain very little.

You may just be challenging God’s word.

If you do not believe in the Bible which is understandable for a Muslim, you might spend your time more beneficially by searching for a greatest meaning by reading about your own faith.

In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith understanding

Eric
 
mara said:
If i understood correct this contractions could have the root in the fact they were written 70 years laters after when they happened. Off course, after 70 years the human brain is giving errors.
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As Muslims, we see these errors as being indications that although the Bible had divine origins - it has human error - and thus it is not possible to verify that its teachings are free from the same error. ('Teachings' referring to divinity of Christ, Crucifixion and most importantly - the Holy Trinity).

I understand the Christian POV - correct me if I am wrong - which is that since many authors wrote the Bible, it isn't possible to have complete agreement over details.

My argument is the argument given in the Quran: -

"They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you seek guidance". Respond to them: "No, I would rather the religion of Abraham, the truthful, and he was not of those who associated partners with Allah!" Say: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to all the Prophets by their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah submissivley".
 
The most common error made in Religious debates is to attempt to prove the other person's sources are wrong.

Stop and think. If a person were to prove the Bible to be 100% wrong, in terms acceptable by all. That would not prove that the Qur'an is true. nor would it be acceptable proof that Christianity is wrong.

I think we need to concentrate more on showing the truth of the Qur'an. there is plenty of histoical and scientific evidence.
 
Greetings,
azim said:
My argument is the argument given in the Quran: -

"They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you seek guidance". Respond to them: "No, I would rather the religion of Abraham, the truthful, and he was not of those who associated partners with Allah!" Say: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to all the Prophets by their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah submissivley".
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Sorry for going off-topic, but I'm confused by this verse and I hope someone can help me. Is the idea that Muslims should respond to proselytiseing Jews and Christians by saying they would rather commit shirk, the most serious sin in Islam, than follow those faiths?

Peace
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,

Sorry for going off-topic, but I'm confused by this verse and I hope someone can help me. Is the idea that Muslims should respond to proselytiseing Jews and Christians by saying they would rather commit shirk, the most serious sin in Islam, than follow those faiths?

Peace
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Hi Callum,
It seems Azim accidently didn't paste in a [crucial!] phrase in the verse. I've added it in, in red. Abraham did NOT commit shirk, that is what the Qur'an is saying.

Regards
 
Ansar Al-'Adl said:
Hi Callum,
It seems Azim accidently didn't paste in a [crucial!] phrase in the verse. I've added it in, in red. Abraham did NOT commit shirk, that is what the Qur'an is saying.

Regards
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LOL ROFL azim you joker! ;D Trust you eh!
 
Ansar Al-'Adl said:
Hi Callum,
It seems Azim accidently didn't paste in a [crucial!] phrase in the verse. I've added it in, in red. Abraham did NOT commit shirk, that is what the Qur'an is saying.

Regards
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Asalaamu alaykum.

Yeh, my fault. :X I was typing it up from a written copy rather than copying and pasting. May Allah forgive me. Sorry guys.
 
Greetings,
Ansar Al-'Adl said:
It seems Azim accidently didn't paste in a [crucial!] phrase in the verse. I've added it in, in red. Abraham did NOT commit shirk, that is what the Qur'an is saying.
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Thanks for clearing that one up, Ansar. I couldn't believe what I was reading!

Don't worry, Azim, we all make mistakes - remember to say thanks to Ansar!

Peace
 
Moss said:
:sl:

I been meaning to put this link up for a while but haven't.

Its a quiz about the Bible, and how it contains contradictions. I warn you before hand it is very "in your face".

http://exchristian.net/3/
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No need to take the quiz now...I know the outcome...:okay:

Seriously it doesn't matter to me...all that matters to me...is whats been placed in my heart it's something I can't deny.
 
Seriously it doesn't matter to me...all that matters to me...is whats been placed in my heart it's something I can't deny.
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I feel the same way about the layers of oil that have built up due to chicken wings :p
 

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