Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew!

[Grace Seeker]

Was right of return ever an option? If so, when was the present policy introduced?

 

[lavikor201]

Was right of return ever an option? If so, when was the present policy introduced?

It isn't a policy but a reality. It is of course not official, but it is obvious that Israel will not even entertain the offer until they are actually recongnized by the Islamic world. Since that seems to not be an option for the Arab world, then they why should Israel conceed demands they make, when they do not even believe Israel to be valid as a country. The Palestinians-Muslims either way were given a state in Jordan (75% of the mandate), and now if they recieve another one, why shouldn't the refugees go there? Jews in the part of the Mandate that was issued to the Arabs got up and left.

In India and Pakistan milions crossed borders to the other sides when the countries were created. One Hindu majoirty one Muslim majority.

The Palestinians are in refugee camps because the Arab world wants to fuel there anger more and more. It is their only way they can fight Israel since on the battlefield the Arab world has been decimated. Do you know how bad Palestinians are treated in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon? Even in Iraq there are some and they are treated like dirt.

I believe the issue has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Reminder to all: This is for Jewish opinions on a matter. Not for debate.

 

[lavikor201]

True in some aspects. All the actions (the majority) are not sanctioned by the Torah, and are certainly not representative of all Jews, like one may say the actions of a Islamic country do not represent all Muslims. Yet Muslims still support Islamic countries for a reason.

 

[Grace Seeker]

It isn't a policy but a reality. It is of course not official, but it is obvious that Israel will not even entertain the offer until they are actually recongnized by the Islamic world. Since that seems to not be an option for the Arab world, then they why should Israel conceed demands they make, when they do not even believe Israel to be valid as a country. The Palestinians-Muslims either way were given a state in Jordan (75% of the mandate), and now if they recieve another one, why shouldn't the refugees go there? Jews in the part of the Mandate that was issued to the Arabs got up and left.

In India and Pakistan milions crossed borders to the other sides when the countries were created. One Hindu majoirty one Muslim majority.

The Palestinians are in refugee camps because the Arab world wants to fuel there anger more and more. It is their only way they can fight Israel since on the battlefield the Arab world has been decimated. Do you know how bad Palestinians are treated in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon? Even in Iraq there are some and they are treated like dirt.

I believe the issue has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Reminder to all: This is for Jewish opinions on a matter. Not for debate.

I began by asking if it was ok to ask question about Israel, not just Judaism. You could have said you would rather not and I would have started a different thread. I was just looking for information, seeking to be better informed and seeing as you live in Israel I thought you could give me at least that side of the story better than anything I might have gained through the American press. But I will pose my questions as questions of Jewish opinion if you prefer.


So, is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that if Palestians are treated like dirt in Iraq, that this justifies treating them like dirt in Israel?

Is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that because Arab states do not recognize the validity of the state of Israel, that Israel should treat people who once lived within its borders as aliens? What does the Tankah say about how aliens and sojourners in the land of Israel are to be treated?

Is it the Jewish interpreation of the Tankah that if a person is of the same ethinicity as a group wherein there are those of that ethnic group that wage war agaisnt Israel that the individual should be treated as if s/he is him/herself perpetuating said violence?

Is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that since Arabs treat Palestians poorly and encourage them to live in refugee camps and won't accept them as citizens that the nation of Israel should treat them similarly?

Is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that if a family flees an area of fighting to a safe haven outside of Israel and once peace is restored wishes to return, that permission to do so should be based on one's ethnicity or religious point of view?

Is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that two wrongs make a right? Or that three or four wrongs piled one atop another are even superior to that?

 

[lavikor201]

I began by asking if it was ok to ask question about Israel, not just Judaism. You could have said you would rather not and I would have started a different thread. I was just looking for information, seeking to be better informed and seeing as you live in Israel I thought you could give me at least that side of the story better than anything I might have gained through the American press. But I will pose my questions as questions of Jewish opinion if you prefer.

The reminder was to members of this forum who might be inclined to think they should possibly come into this thread and begin debating. It was not directed towards you.

So, is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that if Palestians are treated like dirt in Iraq, that this justifies treating them like dirt in Israel?

Not at all. The Tanakh says to defend ourselves from people who wish to kill us though.

Is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that because Arab states do not recognize the validity of the state of Israel, that Israel should treat people who once lived within its borders as aliens? What does the Tankah say about how aliens and sojourners in the land of Israel are to be treated?

I'd like you to post the verse already so I can show you the Hebrew word for "stranger", and tell you how it has nothing to do with a non-Jew at all.

Is it the Jewish interpreation of the Tankah that if a person is of the same ethinicity as a group wherein there are those of that ethnic group that wage war agaisnt Israel that the individual should be treated as if s/he is him/herself perpetuating said violence?

Not at all. But who said the Palestinians were not compeltly allied and helping Arabs in 1948, 1967, 1973 and other years when Arab armies tried to destroy Israel? Hamas the ruling Palestinian party elected by the Palestinians has declared the need for Israel to be destroyed. In its a offical charter it elaborated on how Jews hiding behind trees will be slughtered because there "god" will make the trees give up the Jews.

Now the Tanakh does very well tell us how to treat our enemies who wish to destroy us. Would you like examples?
The Reminder was not to you, but all the members who might feel they have to get in here and start a debate.

Is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that since Arabs treat Palestians poorly and encourage them to live in refugee camps and won't accept them as citizens that the nation of Israel should treat them similarly?

Not at all. However, The Tanakh certainly is not against offering up a right of return in excahnge for recongnition, peace and other things.

Is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that if a family flees an area of fighting to a safe haven outside of Israel and once peace is restored wishes to return, that permission to do so should be based on one's ethnicity or religious point of view?

There is no opinion on that at all. However, the nation of Israel called on all Arabs to stay and build a country together. The 20% in Israel today did just that and they are a huge contibution to our society! The ones who did not and instead chose to heed the calls of the Grand Mufti ended up in the situation they did now.

Who is the Grand Mufti?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Himmler_to_Mufti_telegram_1943.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AlHusayniHitler.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Grossmufti-inspecting-ss-recruits.jpg

Jewish law certainly does not encourage the allowance of a supporter of this man who was a friend of Adolf Hitler and recuited his followers into the SS. The vastmajoirty of the people who left heeded his call.

Is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tankah that two wrongs make a right? Or that three or four wrongs piled one atop another are even superior to that?

No. But the Tanakh does support the defense and survival of Jewish life, as well as all life for that matter.


Since I believe you have stated you are a member of a christian clergy, would you please evaluate these verses for me?:
Isaiah 11:11
Ezekiel 36:24-29
Ezekiel 39:27-29
Hosea 11:9-11
Zechariah 10:8-12
Amos 9:14-15
Zechariah 12:9-10
Ezekiel 36:22-24

It would be great if you could tell me about each verse. Thanks.

 

[Grace Seeker]

OK. Sorry, I got angry. I thought I was treating you with respect and was seriously trying to become better informed as to Israel's thinking on this matter. And then I thought that you were speaking to me and I felt disrespected. My mistake.

Besides, even if you had been, I need to learn to control my emtions better. I apologize.

Do you really want me to look up and interpret those verses individually? Because I will if you do. But on the whole, I see them as a part of what I call "remnant theology". That is that no matter how far afield God's people get form the path he has called them to, that there will always be some who are righteous and that G-d will always preserve a remnant of his people through even the greatest trials and adversities. In terms of calling them together from scattered countries, I primarily see these verses as a promise to those who where under the threat of (or in some cases experiencing) exile. We see their fulfillment in Nehemiah and Ezra rebuilding the temple and the walls of Jerusalem.

Christians also have a secondary understanding, and that is that this chosenness has been transferred to the Church as if, Paul uses the analogy, like the ingrafting of branches on an olive tree. By that analogy descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob are G-d's chosen people, the original olive tree, but some of those branches have been broken off, those Jews of Paul's day who rejected Jesus, and new branches from a wild olive shoot, the Gentiles in Paul's churches, have been grafted in. Paul uses this analogy as both a promise and a warning. It is a warning that no one's position is secure, that unbelief can remove one from the covenant. And a promise that even in the face of unbelief that G-d is faithful and will always have room on the tree to graft in those who do enter into covenant with him on the same basis by which Abraham is understood (by Christians at least) to have entered into covenant with God, that is by faith in God as the keeper of promises and one who has power to do what he has promised that he will do.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Jews nowadays, are resembled by the zionist regime...

just like how the germans where resembles by the nazi regime

thus giving the rest of the jews a bad name among muslims

I'm not sure what you mean by "resembled". You are using that term in a way I am not familiar with.

Do you mean "represented"?

 

[lavikor201]

Do you really want me to look up and interpret those verses individually? Because I will if you do. But on the whole, I see them as a part of what I call "remnant theology". That is that no matter how far afield God's people get form the path he has called them to, that there will always be some who are righteous and that God will always preserve a remnant of his people through even the greatest trials and adversities. In terms of calling them together from scattered countries, I primarily see these verses as a promise to those who where under the threat of (or in some cases experiencing) exile. We see their fulfillment in Nehemiah and Ezra rebuilding the temple and the walls of Jerusalem.

There are some verses that refer to a "second time" and also some verses that also refer only to Judah. Some of then could not have refered to the time of Ezra.

Anyway, you do not have to look at the verses if you do not want to. I thought you might be interested however, since you are a man of the cloth.

 

[Grace Seeker]

There are some verses that refer to a "second time" and also some verses that also refer only to Judah. Some of then could not have refered to the time of Ezra.

Anyway, you do not have to look at the verses if you do not want to. I thought you might be interested however, since you are a man of the cloth.

Oh, I was glad for them, and I did look them up. But in seeing a theme running through them, I thought I might be able to respond to them as a unit rather than individually. Wouldn't you agree that even that they all fit the concept of "remnant theology"? Whether in response to the Assyrian threat, the Babylonian exile, or later disaporas the issues with respect to the people and the promises of God were all still the same.

 

[lavikor201]

Oh, I was glad for them, and I did look them up. But in seeing a theme running through them, I thought I might be able to respond to them as a unit rather than individually. Wouldn't you agree that even that they all fit the concept of "remnant theology"? Whether in response to the Assyrian threat, the Babylonian exile, or later disaporas the issues with respect to the people and the promises of God were all still the same.

Here is an intereting verse from the (NIV), so you will consider it valid:

Ezekiel 4
3
Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel.
4
"Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself.[1] You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side.
5
I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel.
6
"After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you
40
days, a day for each year.

NIV Footnote: [1] Or your side

Here is an interesting read:

In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here's a summary of Jeffrey's theory:

1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from G-d. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.

2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.

3. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible's book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.

4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.

5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.

 

[lavikor201]

Another one:

Jeremiah 32:44
Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes, declares the L-RD."

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam;

to any Jew:


do Jews still considered Ezekeil as part of holy book ? How do explain the following verses ?


I did not read the whole chapter , not sure if it means todays Israel . Even if it's not , do u think , if we spread these peaceful verses among Jews in Israel, relationship between Muslims & Jews can become much better ?




Ezekiel 47:


21 "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel.


22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children.

You are to consider them as native-born Israelites;

along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.


23 In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.


here is e-mail add of a Rabbi....if anybody is interested , u may e-mail him....i took his permission to give his add. rav gave this add in another thread , it's closed now.

Elisha Ulman: [email protected]

 

[lavikor201]

Salaam;

to any Jew:


do Jews still considered Ezekeil as part of holy book ? How do explain the following verses ?


I did not read the whole chapter , not sure if it means todays Israel . Even if it's not , do u think , if we spread these peaceful verses among Jews in Israel, relationship between Muslims & Jews can become much better ?




Ezekiel 47:


21 "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel.


22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children.

You are to consider them as native-born Israelites;

along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.


23 In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.


here is e-mail add of a Rabbi....if anybody is interested , u may e-mail him....i took his permission to give his add. rav gave this add in another thread , it's closed now.

Elisha Ulman: [email protected]

Very good question. Ezekiel is speaking of converts to Judaism. The Hebrew word "הַגָּרִים" "Hagauirim"

The word for Conversion is גיור "Hagiur"

The saying in Hebrew for a convert is a "Righteous Stranger/Alien"

In halacha land in Israel can't be sold in perpetuity (Leviticus. 25:23), therefore this is speaking of giving converts the right to live in the land of the tribe they joined.

Makes sense right?

A Convert Joins the nation of Israel, and G-d commands us to make this convert equal and give him equal inherretance over the land.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Very good question. Ezekiel is speaking of converts to Judaism. The Hebrew word "הַגָּרִים" "Hagauirim"

The word for Conversion is גיור "Hagiur"

The saying in Hebrew for a convert is a "Righteous Stranger/Alien"

In halacha land in Israel can't be sold in perpetuity (Leviticus. 25:23), therefore this is speaking of giving converts the right to live in the land of the tribe they joined.

Makes sense right?

A Convert Joins the nation of Israel, and G-d commands us to make this convert equal and give him equal inherretance over the land.

Salaam/peace;

Does it mean , non-Jews have no right in the holy land ? To live there , they all have to become Jews ? :uuh:

 

[Grace Seeker]

Is it the Jewish interpretation of the Tanakh that because Arab states do not recognize the validity of the state of Israel, that Israel should treat people who once lived within its borders as aliens? What does the Tanakh say about how aliens and sojourners in the land of Israel are to be treated?

I'd like you to post the verse already so I can show you the Hebrew word for "stranger", and tell you how it has nothing to do with a non-Jew at all.

Here is one from the Torah, Deuteronomy 10:19

יט וַאֲהַבְתֶּם, אֶת-הַגֵּר: כִּי-גֵרִים הֱיִיתֶם, בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם.
"And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt." (NIV) or
"Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt." (KJV)​

This seems to go well with Muslim woman's question from Ezekiel. The word translated into English as "alien" in the NIV and "stranger" in the KJV is the Hebrew word "geyr" or guest, meaning by implication a foreigner. Surely, in this verse it is not a reference to converts for it would then mean that the nation of Israel saw itself as converts while in Egypt.

 

[lavikor201]

Does it mean , non-Jews have no right in the holy land ? To live there , they all have to become Jews ?

Not at all. A Jew treats and helps out another Jew by giving him inherretance and to a non-Jew you treat him the same way non-Jews treat eachother, by not giving him any inherretance if he is a newcomer.

Here is one from the Torah, Deuteronomy 10:19

יט וַאֲהַבְתֶּם, אֶת-הַגֵּר: כִּי-גֵרִים הֱיִיתֶם, בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם.
"And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt." (NIV) or
"Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt." (KJV)​

This seems to go well with Muslim woman's question from Ezekiel. The word translated into English as "alien" in the NIV and "stranger" in the KJV is the Hebrew word "geyr" or guest, meaning by implication a foreigner. Surely, in this verse it is not a reference to converts for it would then mean that the nation of Israel saw itself as converts while in Egypt.

The word can be used in different contexts. It can be literally "stranger" or it can mean convert. In your verse it implies a stranger, in the other verse it implies giving a convert to Judaism the inherretance he deserves from the tribe he joins.

In the english language the same word can mean two different things as well different becaue of the context they are in.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Not at all. A Jew treats and helps out another Jew by giving him inherretance and to a non-Jew you treat him the same way non-Jews treat eachother, by not giving him any inherretance if he is a newcomer.



The word can be used in different contexts. It can be literally "stranger" or it can mean convert. In your verse it implies a stranger, in the other verse it implies giving a convert to Judaism the inherretance he deserves from the tribe he joins.

In the english language the same word can mean two different things as well different becaue of the context they are in.

Fine, of course words can have more than one meaning. That's rather off point isn't it. It certainly doesn't answer my question.

If you remember, my question to you was: "What does the Tanakh say about how aliens and sojourners in the land of Israel are to be treated?" You told me to give you a verse and you could show me the Hebrew word for "stranger", and tell me how it has nothing to do with a non-Jew at all.

Now you tell me that indeed it is a stranger and has nothing to do with converts. But my question remains unanswered, and since you asked me to provide a verse, please base your answer on the verse provided: What is the Jewish understanding of how to an alien?

Unless you think the Hebrew understandings of these words are different than there English counteparts, it seems to me that the instructions of the Torah are to treat these aliens, these strangers, these "geyr" with love. Why? Simple, because Israel has been there before and knows what it is like. Israel is told to do the right thing, becaue they know what the right thing to do is, not because they themselves have been treated the right way. Or do Jews have a different interpretation of that passage, because, as a Christian that is how I understand that passage and the way I preach on it to my congregation.

Regrettably we may not always live up to that standard but surely we must recognize that this is what the standard is. I would think it would be one of the 600+ commands that have been previously mentioned which Jews are to keep. Is it not?

 

[lavikor201]

Unless you think the Hebrew understandings of these words are different than there English counteparts, it seems to me that the instructions of the Torah are to treat these aliens, these strangers, these "geyr" with love. Why? Simple, because Israel has been there before and knows what it is like. Israel is told to do the right thing, becaue they know what the right thing to do is, not because they themselves have been treated the right way. Or do Jews have a different interpretation of that passage, because, as a Christian that is how I understand that passage and the way I preach on it to my congregation.

That is about right. However, in the book of Ezekial, it is a reference to the converts, and the inherretance they will recieve in the tribe they joined.

I suggest you read the first paragraph here:

Conversion to Judaism (Hebrew גיור, giur, "conversion") is the religious conversion of a previously non-Jewish person to the Jewish religion. The procedure for conversion depends on the sponsoring denomination, and hinges on meeting the ritual and substantive requirements for such conversion. A convert to Judaism is referred to as a ger tzedek (Hebrew: "righteous proselyte" or "proselyte [of] righteousness") or simply ger ("stranger" or "proselyte").

​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

Continue on here:

The Hebrew Bible states that converts deserve special attention (Deuteronomy 10:19). The Hebrew word for "convert", ger, is the same as that for a stranger. It is also related to the root gar - "to dwell'. Hence since the Children of Israel were "strangers" - geirim in Egypt, they are therefore instructed to be welcoming to those who seek to convert and dwell amongst them.

Judaism, unlike say Christianity and Islam, is not a proselytising religion. Because it teaches that the righteous of all nations shall enter the gates of heaven, it does not have any compelling urge to rescue non-Jews from hell and ****ation.

There is a requirement in Jewish law to ensure the sincerity of a potential convert. This is taken very seriously, and when played out against the background of the foregoing considerations, most authorities are very careful about it. Essentially, they want to be sure that the convert knows what he is getting into, and that he is doing it for sincerely religious reasons. A Rabbinic tradition holds that a prospective convert should be refused three times.

​

 

[Grace Seeker]

I get the bit about converts, the ger tzedek, being treated as special. But I don't think that Deuteronomy 10:19 is referring to converts, proselytes, or non-Jewish who are trying to fit within the Jewish community. It is talking about strangers, foreigners who stood out like the Jewis did when slaves in Egypt, people who are treated by society as outcasts. Society may treat them that way, maybe even the secular Zionist state of Israel -- but Jews, Jews who desire to keep the Torah, how should they treat aliens?

Do you or do you not think that Deuteronomy 10:19 applies to non-Jews who live as aliens and strangers in the midst of Jews?

 

[deen_2007]

i just want to say...thanks for creating this thread....