Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew!

[rachamim]

Grace: About the Jewish view of Jesus. Well, the Romans kept meticulous records,etc. so that today we can read , in their original hand, invitations to birrhdays as well as orders of beer,etc. to suggest that a prelate , a governor of a large province, would have not recorded the execution of a man with many followers is just beyond belief.

Jews also kept meticulous records and still do. There is no mention of his birth, life, or death. The only close relation is the writings of the Jewish traitor Josephus. It is claimed by fringe conspiracy theorists that Josephus calls Jesus "Messiah." Thing is, Josephus actually believed that Flavian, later known as Flavius, was the Messiah and even says as much just 4 paragraphs before allegedly mentioning Jesus as "Messiah." The literary style is dinstinctly different and the finger points to a Catholic monk who lived in the 16th Century CE/AD who devoted much time to transalting Josephus into Italian and other European languages.

So, we believe Jesus never existed BUT IF he did, he was nothing more than a rebel. Galilee was home to all the Jewish revolutionaries and in fact it is where the Zealot movement began adn where its offspring the Sicarii movement began as well. It is said in Scripture thast Jesus spent the evening before his death incarcerated with rebels, so it is pretty clear that no matter the case, not many people today have the faintest understanding of the man, if indeed he was a man.

As for Muhammed, we see him as a true man who certainly lived but as a man on the wrong path. We see him as having had no understanding of the true faith. His aborgations in Qu'ran are nonsensical to put it nicely.

Rav: Shalom Al'aichem..,I will go back over this thread and look at your posts and see if i disagree with anything and post on it.

Abdul: "OT and Tanach..." Nope. Old Testament is simply the first 5 books of Jewish Scripture and the basis of our faith. Tanach on the other hand is the full canaon of 27 books. It is Toraha, K'tooveem (writings), and N'veem (Prophets).

If asking if there are differences between Torah and what non-Jews usually call "Old Testament" {OT}, well of course. Anytime you translate something you will lose important things , words, nuances, inferred and idiomatic defintions, and so on. For example: The Torah is in Hebew. Transalted first into Middle Greek, then Latin, then common Greek, then into a myriad of other languages so that each time it has lost part of its essence.

One super important example is the word "sheol." this Hebrew rod simply means "grave." Early Christains though twisted it into a pretzel called "Hell." The imagery from Hell are purely Greek and Roman mythology. TRhere are thousands of such mostakes but just a very basic example is the numbering systyem for verse and chapter. In each language those numbers will be very different because of so called poetic liscence taken by translators.

"Genesis." Yes, it is called B'raysheet" which means "In the Beginning." It does say man was created in G-D's image but what this means is that we are all imbued with the essence of Creation. G-D cannot have ANY definite physical form. Many non-Jews think that the sentence means G-D made us physcially like him but of course, as I just said, this can never be possible.

 

[rachamim]

Rav: Good jop on listing the books of Tanach but on the writing such as Tobit, a bit of explanation. The so called Apocrypha are very much a part of the Jewish Religion if not the post Temple canon due to various reasons., Some very important books though should not be ignored like Tobit, Yudeet, and both Maccabi. Maccabi are the more concise historical books in entire Scripture. There also many other books not usually listed.

As for being part of the Christain Scripture, only in the Catholic and Orthadox Churches (almost one and the same but I will not split hairs for now-smile).

I commend you for offering that fantastic comparison out of Isaih. in fact, not a single prophecy claimed int he NT was fufilled. The Nazerene out of Matthew? They claim that since Jesus' ancestral village was supposed to be Nazaret, that he fufilled the prophecy of the Messiah being a Nazarene! A Nazarene as i am sure you know, is simply a man who took a vow against cutting hair and partaking of the grape. On and on and on but that is a prime example. Actually, in Hebrew it says, "woman of marriagable age" which simply means 12 years or older, or more to the point that his mom would have been 12 to 13.

Grace: No, almost all Christain Churches use the Septaguint derived translation , not the Tanach.

King James did not rely on anything save Tynsdale who himself relied upon Latin translations.

 

[rachamim]

Grace: While I commend you for knowing oif the Apocrypha not being universally accepted by the Christains, it is that the early Churches were actually Jewish sects, not a distinctive faith hence their reliance on Septaguint. Around Nicea, Jews rejected the Apocrypha seeing a need to slim things down a bit for the Exile and the hazards of communication over long distances as we had learned with the Yerushalami Talmud and its lack of acceptance. As such, we needed a greater degree of codification.

When we rejected the Apocrypha , the Church saw it as an opportunity to lay claim to a truer sense of Scripture. It was used as a tool.

"Disputed Greek translations having been made by Jews. No, there is no dispute whatsoever. The School of Philo, well primarily one man among the School, is responsbile for the Septaguint.

"Luther not having included the Apocrypha because..." He did not include them for one simple reason, the Catholic Church DID. He abhorred the Church in its contemporary state and sought to distance himself as much as possible.

Rav: "Jesus must be Jewish to be Messiah." But if he lived, we was nothing if not Jewish. He was a religious Jew.

"Must be of Yehudah {Juday}." He was. He was alos of Benyomeen (Benjamin) but then all Jews today and since Babylon are (save for Kohaneem and Daneem but that is another kettle of fish to fry).

Absolutely correct on the discreapncies in Jesus' alleged genealogy. Only names in common are Jesus and Joseph. Not even Joseph's fathers match! To boot, if using this genealogy, he cannot possibly be the Son of G-D. If G-D is his father, why mention the genealogy at all and how could he be of the Davidic line?!?

 

[rachamim]

Rav: The last 3 points about Jesus and prophecy not having been fufilled are right on target. Furthermore, where is the prophecy concerning as Messiah who dies? It is just so many non-sensical things.

ThirdWatch: "Reform Jews." There is no such thing. There are religious Jews, and secular Jews. Any classification of strate within religous Jewry is nonsense. You cannot expect G-D to change for you, you must change for HIM. Reform,etc.say religion must change to fit the times. Well the thing is, it does change. However, when you turn around and say well I do not want to eat Kosher because it is a pain to always watch what I eat, you are spitting in the face of G-D. Reform,etc., have no understanding ofd G-D sad to say.

 

[rachamim]

Rav, I have just looked at the first 15 pages of the thread and it is quite tiring (smile). I realise you must have started in much later but will leave my opinions for future posts as it is mor simple and it might get confusing all around if I reference points made weeks agfo. So far, I see you batting 1000 as Americans like to say. Good job.

 

[rozeena]

How do jewish people pray?

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Is there a video perhaps on youtube or something that shows how Jews pray the daily prayers? With English translation if possible.

 

[rav]

It is a difficult concept to explain because we pray out of a prayer book (unless we have it memmorized). Therefore, I can show you videos and point you towards websites with the basic outlines of the prayers.

Jews are required to pray three times a day however.

Here are videos of Jewish prayer, but remember that there are different parts of the service that require different prayers (Examples: "Amidah" you stand and not move for your legs for the prayer, the "Shema" you sit and cover your eyes etc.):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...04&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...356&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...56&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...56&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9

_____

Here is an online Jewish "siddur" or prayer book:

http://www.770live.com/En770/siddur/siddur.htm

I however use a different prayer book, it can be found online here:

http://www.artscroll.com/Products/SHAD.html

Siddur Yitzchak Yair


____


This if from Judaism 101: http://www.jewfaq.org/liturgy.htm

Jewish Liturgy
Level: Intermediate


In the giving credit where credit is due department: much of the information in this page is derived from Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin's "To Pray as a Jew: A Guide to the Prayer Book and the Synagogue Service", an excellent Orthodox resource on the subject of Jewish prayer.
Observant Jews daven (pray) in formal worship services three times a day, every day: at evening (Ma'ariv), in the morning (Shacharit), and in the afternoon (Minchah). Daily prayers are collected in a book called a siddur, which derives from the Hebrew root meaning "order," because the siddur shows the order of prayers. It is the same root as the word seder, which refers to the Passover home service.

Central Prayers
Undoubtedly the oldest fixed daily prayer in Judaism is the Shema. This consists of Deut. 6:4-9, Deut. 11:13-21, and Num. 15:37-41. Note that the first paragraph commands us to speak of these matters "when you retire and when you arise." From ancient times, this commandment was fulfilled by reciting the Shema twice a day: morning and night.

The next major development in Jewish prayer occurred during the Babylonian Exile, 6th century B.C.E. People were not able to sacrifice in the Temple at that time, so they used prayer as a substitute for sacrifice. "The offerings of our lips instead of bulls," as Hosea said. People got together to pray three times a day, corresponding to the three daily sacrifices. There was an additional prayer service on Shabbat and certain holidays, to correspond to the additional sacrifices of those days. Some suggest that this may already have been a common practice among the pious before the Exile.

After the Exile, these daily prayer services continued. In the 5th century B.C.E., the Men of the Great Assembly composed a basic prayer, covering just about everything you could want to pray about. This is the Shemoneh Esrei, which means "18" and refers to the 18 blessings originally contained within the prayer. It is also referred to as the Amidah (standing, because we stand while we recite it), or Tefilah (prayer, as in The Prayer, because it is the essence of all Jewish prayer). This prayer is the cornerstone of every Jewish service.

The blessings of the Shemoneh Esrei can be broken down into 3 groups: three blessings praising G-d, thirteen making requests (forgiveness, redemption, health, prosperity, rain in its season, ingathering of exiles, etc.), and three expressing gratitude and taking leave. But wait! That's 19! And didn't I just say that this prayer is called 18?

One of the thirteen requests (the one against heretics) was added around the 2nd century C.E., in response to the growing threat of heresy (including Christianity, which was a Jewish sect at the time), but at that time, the prayer was already commonly known as the Shemoneh Esrei, and the name stuck, even though there were now 19 blessings. Many non-Jews, upon hearing that there is a blessing like this, assume it is much more offensive than it actually is. Here is what it says:

For slanderers, may there be no hope; and may all wickedness quickly be destroyed, and may all your enemies be cut off swiftly. The intentional [sinners], swiftly may they be uprooted, broken, cast down and subdued, swiftly and in our days. Blessed are you, L-RD, breaker of enemies and subduer of intentional [sinners].
Another important part of certain prayer services is a reading from the Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and the Prophets. The Torah has been divided into 54 sections, so that if each of these sections is read and studied for a week, we can cover the entire Torah in a year every year (our leap years are 54 weeks long; regular years are 50 or so, we double up shorter portions on a few weeks in regular years). At various times in our history, our oppressors did not permit us to have public readings of the Torah, so we read a roughly corresponding section from the Prophets (referred to as a Haftarah). Today, we read both the Torah portion and the Haftarah portion. These are read at morning services on Shabbat and some holidays. In addition, at Monday and Thursday morning services, we read part of the upcoming Shabbat's Torah portion (about 10 to 15 verses; the first aliyah of the week's portion).

The Torah and haftarah readings are performed with great ceremony: the Torah is paraded around the room before it is brought to rest on the bimah (podium). It is considered an honor to have the opportunity to recite a blessing over the reading (this honor is called an aliyah). For more information, see Torah Readings.

That's the heart of the Jewish prayer service. There are, however, many additional prayers leading up to these things and following these things. There is a long series of morning blessings at the beginning of the morning service. Some people recite these at home. They deal with a lot of concerns with getting up in the morning, and things we are obligated to do daily. There is a section called P'sukei d'Zimra (verses of song), which includes a lot of Psalms and hymns. I like to think of it as a warm-up, getting you in the mood for prayer in the morning. Some people don't show up for services until after that "warm-up."

There are also a few particularly significant prayers. The most important is the Kaddish, one of the few prayers in Aramaic, which praises G-d. Here's a small piece of it, in English:

May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days, and in the lifetimes of the entire family of Israel, swiftly and soon. May His great Name be blessed forever and ever. Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, mighty...
There are several variations on it for different times in the service. One variation is set aside for mourners to recite, the congregation only providing the required responses. Many people think of the Kaddish as a mourner's prayer, because the oldest son is obligated to recite it for a certain period after a parent's death, but in fact it is much broader than that. Someone once told me it separates each portion of the service, and a quick glance at any siddur (daily prayer book) shows that it is recited between each section, but I don't know if that is its purpose.

Another important prayer is Aleinu, which is recited at or near the end of every service. It also praises G-d. Here is a little of it in English, to give you an idea:

It is our duty to praise the Master of all, to ascribe greatness to the Molder of primeval creation ... Therefore, we put our hope in you, L-rd our G-d, that we may soon see Your mighty splendor... On that day, the L-rd will be One and His Name will be One.
On certain holidays, we also recite Hallel, which consists of Psalms 113-118.

Many holidays have special additions to the liturgy. See Yom Kippur Liturgy for additions related to that holiday.

Outline of Services
There are a few other things, but that's a pretty good idea of what's involved. Here is an outline of the order of the daily services:

• Evening Service (Ma'ariv)

1. Shema and it's blessings and related passages
2. Shemoneh Esrei
3. Aleinu

• Morning Service (Shacharit)

1. Morning Blessings
2. P'sukei d'Zimra
3. Shema and it's blessings and related passages
4. Shemoneh Esrei
5. Hallel, if appropriate
6. Torah reading (Mondays, Thursdays, Shabbat and holidays)
7. Aleinu, Ashrei (Psalm 145), and other closing prayers, Psalms and hymns (not on Shabbat and holidays; recited at the end of Musaf instead on those days)
8. Additional Service (Musaf) (Shabbat and holidays only; recited immediately after Shacharit)
9. Shemoneh Esrei
10. Aleinu and other closing prayers, Psalms and hymns

• Afternoon Service (Minchah)

1. Ashrei (Psalm 145)
2. Shemoneh Esrei
3. Aleinu

This is based on the Ashkenazic service, but the Sephardic service has a very similar structure. They use different music, and have a few variations in choice of psalms, hymns, and prayers. See Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews for more information.

A regular weekday morning service in an Orthodox synagogue lasts about an hour. The afternoon and evening weekday services (which are usually performed back-to-back) are about a half-hour. A Shabbat or festival morning service, which includes Shacharit and Musaf, runs three to four hours, but what else are you doing on Shabbat? The service starts early in the morning and runs through to lunch time. The evening service on Shabbat (that is, Friday night) and festivals are also somewhat longer than on weekdays.

If you've never been to a Jewish religious service, following along can be quite a challenge! Even if you are experienced, it's possible to get lost at times. In fact, a friend of mine tells me she once heard a song called "The I-Don't-Know-What-Page-We're-On-In-The-Siddur Blues"! In most synagogues, the person leading the service will periodically tell you what page they are on, particularly when portions of the service are skipped. In some synagogues, they even have a flip-board with the page numbers on it. Here are a few hints to help you stay with the group, even if the leader isn't providing such assistance:

The biggest trick is being aware of the structure of the siddur itself. The siddurs most commonly used in Orthodox and Conservative synagogues include within a single volume all of the prayers for all four prayer services (Shacharit, Musaf, Minchah and Ma'ariv). Make sure you know which service you are attending. Normally, services are held at two times of the day: morning (Shacharit and Musaf) and early evening (Minchah and Ma'ariv). The morning services are generally at the beginning of the siddur, while the afternoon and evening services are normally in the middle.

Most siddurs include weekdays, Shabbat and most festivals in a single volume. (Exception: Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur have such extensive additions that they have their own separate siddur called a machzor). To save space, the sections are not laid out exactly in the order they are recited, so you may need to skip around the book a bit for certain sections. Usually, the prayer leader will tell you when you are skipping around, but sometimes they will not. Watch for notes in the siddur that will tell you to skip to different sections depending on whether it is: 1) Shabbat; 2) a Festival (i.e., non-working day); 3) Chol Ha-Mo'ed (intermediate days of festivals); 4) Rosh Chodesh (the first day of a Jewish month); or 5) a weekday. Most of the major skips will occur at the breaks in sections described above under Outline of Services above. For example, a Shabbat morning service on Rosh Chodesh (the first of the month) in my siddur would begin with a generic Morning Blessings, then would skip 200 pages forward for a Shabbat/Festival P'sukei D'Zimra, Shema and Shemoneh Esrei., then forward 200 pages to pick up Hallel (which is recited on Rosh Chodesh), then back to where I came from for the Torah reading, followed by the Musaf Shemoneh Esrei and the closing blessings.

Another skip that is confusing for most newcomers is the Shemoneh Esrei (also called the Amidah). At the beginning of the Shemoneh Esrei, the congregants stand. They read through the entire prayer silently, skipping the Kedushah blessing and the Priestly Blessing. This is a very long prayer -- 10-20 pages in my siddur. The process may take as much as five minutes, and the end is not always clearly marked. Watch for Oseh Shalom (May He who makes peace in his heights make peace for us and for all Israel, and let us say Amen). The Shemoneh Esrei ends with the paragraph after that one. The leader of the service then begins repeating the entire Shemoneh Esrei aloud, and you must flip back to the beginning to read along with it. (Note: the Shemoneh Esrei is not repeated at Ma'ariv).

What to Say and What to Do

Another source of confusion for newcomers is what to say and what to do. When do I say "Amen"? When do I stand or bow? Here are a few of the more common things to watch for. There are a lot of these, and not all of them are easy to spot the first time.

Saying "Amen"

As a general rule, you say "amen" whenever someone else says a blessing. It's sort of the Hebrew equivalent of saying "ditto": when you say "amen," it's as if you said the blessing yourself. Whenever you hear someone say "Barukh atah...", get ready to say "amen." The "amen" may be at the end of the current sentence, or at the end of the current paragraph.

Keep in mind that you only say "amen" when someone else says a blessing. After all, it would be silly to say "ditto" after something you yourself said!

There are a few other places where "amen" is said. If the leader says "v'imru amen" (let's say "amen"), you join in on the word "amen," so watch for the word "v'imru." This comes up several times in the Kaddish prayer. There is also an additional "amen" within Kaddish: right at the beginning, after "sh'mei rabbah."

Other Responses to Prayer

On many occasions, when a person says, "Barukh atah Adoshem," others who hear him interject "Barukh Hu u'Varukh Shemo." This is generally recited very quickly, and often sounds like "Barukh Shemo" (and some people say it that way). However, you do not do this all the time, and I'm not sure how to explain the pattern of when you do and when you don't.

There are several congregational responses in the Kaddish prayer. We noted above the many "Amens" within Kaddish. In addition, after the first "v'imru amen," the congregation recites, "y'hei sh'mei raba m'varakh l'alam ul'al'mei al'maya" (May His great Name be blessed forever and ever). Also, after "sh'mei d'kud'sha" in the next paragraph, the congregation joins the reader in saying "b'rikh hu" (Blessed is He). All of this is usually clearly marked in the siddur. I have provided a text of the Mourner's Kaddish, where you can see this all laid out.

Whenever someone says "Bar'khu et Adoshem ha-m'vorakh" (Bless the L-rd, the Blessed One) the congregation responds "Barukh ha-m'vorakh l'olam va-ed" (Blessed is the L-rd, the Blessed One, forever and ever). There are two times when this happens: the Bar'khu prayer (a formal summons to prayer after P'sukei D'Zimra and at the beginning of Ma'ariv), and as each person blesses the Torah reading.

During the repetition of the Shemoneh Esrei, when the leader recites the three-part priestly blessing (May the L-rd bless you and safeguard you... May the L-rd illuminate His countenance for you and be gracious to you... May the L-rd turn His countenance to you and establish peace for you...), the congregation replies kein y'hi ratzon (so be it) after each of the three blessings.

Standing
You should stand at the following times:

• When the Ark is open.
• When the Torah is being carried around the room.
• During the Shemoneh Esrei, from the beginning of the silent portion until after the Kedushah during the reader's repetition (Kedushah is the part that includes the "Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh" (Holy, Holy, Holy) blessing).
• During the Aleinu prayer, near the end of any service.

There are a few other prayers that require standing, but these are the most notable.

In addition, in Orthodox synagogues, it is customary for everyone to stand when Kaddish is recited, except for the Mourner's Kaddish, where only the mourners stand. The prayer is usually rather clearly marked as Kaddish, and begins "Yit'gadal v'yit'kadash sh'mei raba" (May his great name grow exalted and sanctified). However, I have noticed in some non-Orthodox synagogues that the congregants do not stand during regular Kaddishes, or sometimes stand during Mourner's Kaddishes.

Bowing
Judaism has a special procedure for bowing during prayer: first you bend the knees, then you bend forward while straightening the knees, then you stand up. See the animation at right.

Bowing is done several times during the service:

During the Aleinu prayer, when we say "v'anakhnu korim u'mishtachavim u'modim" (which quite literally means, "so we bend knee and bow and give thanks").

Four times during the Shemoneh Esrei (at "Blessed art Thou, L-rd" in the beginning of the first blessing; at "Blessed art Thou, L-rd" at the end of the first blessing; at "We gratefully thank You" at the beginning of the Modim blessing and at "Blessed art Thou, L-rd" at the end of the Modim blessing). There is also a special bow during the Oseh Shalom blessing: at "He who makes peace in his heights," bow to the left; at "may he make peace," bow to the right; at "upon us and upon all Israel" bow forward.

During the Bar'khu blessing (after P'sukei d'Zimra and at the beginning of Ma'ariv), the leader recites the Bar'khu blessing, during which he bows. The congregation responds with "Barukh ha-m'vorakh l'olam va-ed" and bows.

During Torah readings, when a person recites a blessing over the Torah, this same Bar'khu and it's congregational response are recited, with the same bowing. Often, the bow here is less obvious: seated congregants just sort of lean forward out of their chairs.
Kissing the Torah.

In any service where there is a Torah reading, there is ordinarily a Torah procession. A congregant holds the Torah and carries it around the synagogue. As the Torah passes congregants, they touch the cover with their hand (or sometimes with a prayer book, or with their tallit) and then kiss their hand (or whatever they touched it with). In Orthodox synagogues, where the Torah procession often does not encompass the women's section, women generally reach out in the direction of the Torah, then kiss their hands.

After a Torah reading, the Torah is held up in the air with its words facing the congregation. It is traditional to reach out toward the Torah, usually with the pinky finger, while reciting the congregational response (v'zot ha-Torah...), then kiss the finger.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

I thought that the Jewish prayers were considered to be from Moses (peace be upon him) and handed down from him, but from what I understand from the text they (at least some parts) developed over time in Jewish history? New things to say were added over time?

By the way, a few things are familiar. For instance, it is mentioned in the text:

(Kedushah is the part that includes the "Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh" (Holy, Holy, Holy) blessing).

Muslims may repeat this three times after the optional night prayer: "Subhana-l-Maliki-l-Quddus". This basically means "Perfect and High above any imperfection is the King, the Holy One." The similarity is in the word "Kadosh and Quddus" which means the same thing (which isn't strange since both are Semitic languages) and is repeated thrice. I also, for instance, understood the word "Barukh" as well since the word for blessed is similar in both Arabic and my native Bosnian (which obviously borrowed from Arabic).

Thanks rav, I really enjoyed learning about how you pray.

 

[thirdwatch512]

One of our greatest sages , Nachamides, had a son who converted to Islam

Nachnamides=Ramban, correct?

Are you sure you don't mean ibn ezra? Ramban had two sons, both who were religious Jews.

Ibn Ezra had a son who converted to islam, but even then he later returned to Judaism.

 

[rachamim]

Rozeena: "How Jews pray." We have 3 prayer orders similar to Salat. Prior to dawn, mid day, and then at dusk. We also pay with paticular blessings for each event we expereince, wheter eating fish, or seeing a rainbow. We worship HIM with every action we undertake and as such, we are praying contantly.

During our 3 prayer ordewrs, we pary individually as opposed to group prayer although we do follow liturgies (plural because each demographic of Jewry has specific liturgies).

Rav: On music...In the sense that we use chanting yes, we have it. But so called Reform, Conservative, etc. do use actual music but the consensus, and this is for others' benefit as I am sure you know it, post Temple worship, or Rabbinic Judaisim as we call it, doe snot see formal music as Kosher. Cantorial music is an affectaion only within the last 200 odd years and never in so called Orthadoxy,etc. Chaddish nigguim is perhaps a form of music but again just vocal.

Great post though, excellent info.

Abu: On prayer coming from Moshe, or Moses...Some are considered to have come down that long along the line but almost all are from the Rabbinic Era which would be around the time Jesus was allegedly born, or as we call it, The Common Era (CE). Our worship was highly centralised and ritualised but after the destruction of our Secod Temple by Roman invaders we recodified our worship to decentralise the Temple Aspect.

On similarities between Arabic and Hebrew. Well of course they are very closely related but Kaddish is Aramaic, not Hebrew. Aramaic is closely related to both Hebrew and Arabic and in fact Rav is an Aramaic word as well, meaning exalted teacher.

As for Hebrew or Aramaic being borrowed from Arabic, nope. Arabic is the youngest of the 3 and did not even have a wirtten form until shirtly before Muhammed so Arabic is indeed borrowed from us.
|Ibn Era is a different affair , his son also converted but Ezra never heard from him again despite spending his entire meddile age searching. Nachamides also had an apostate son who converted to Islam. Islam at the time was considered to be very progressive due to the influence of the Andalus Khalif.''

Where did you hear Ezra's son returned to the Jewish faith? He was never heard from again as far as I know.

There were at the time many reason for any person to convert to Islam, foremost perhaps the apprehension that Islam was conquering all of Europe after Poiters had been beaten back,etc.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grace: While I commend you for knowing oif the Apocrypha not being universally accepted by the Christains, it is that the early Churches were actually Jewish sects, not a distinctive faith hence their reliance on Septaguint. Around Nicea, Jews rejected the Apocrypha seeing a need to slim things down a bit for the Exile and the hazards of communication over long distances as we had learned with the Yerushalami Talmud and its lack of acceptance. As such, we needed a greater degree of codification.

When we rejected the Apocrypha , the Church saw it as an opportunity to lay claim to a truer sense of Scripture. It was used as a tool.

"Disputed Greek translations having been made by Jews. No, there is no dispute whatsoever. The School of Philo, well primarily one man among the School, is responsbile for the Septaguint.

"Luther not having included the Apocrypha because..." He did not include them for one simple reason, the Catholic Church DID. He abhorred the Church in its contemporary state and sought to distance himself as much as possible.

When I speak of the LXX being disputed, I am not referring to them being disputed at the time of its writing, but that some Jews today (notably some who had previously posted about it in the thread) dispute that it was a Jewish creation, or if it was that it was done under duress and intentionally sabotaged so as to be incorrect and never trusted by the Jews. As this is supposed to be a Jewish thread, I do not usually engage in debate as to what is Jewish opinion (unless someone mis-states a Christian view**), but let those who are Jews speak for themselves.

Personally, I think that the LXX was simply nothing more and nothing less than the version of the scriptures used by Greek-speaking Jews in the 1st century CE and thus quite naturally the version used by Greek-speaking Christians as well. In time, as the Christians began to see themselves as less and less Jewish and simply as uniquely Christian, they developed their own set of sacred scriptures yet still retained those of their Jewish roots. Hence they had two collections of scriptures which became known at the Old and New Testaments, works that testified to what they understood as old (the Exodus and Sinai) and new (Jesus' passion) covanents with God.

Luther's hatred of all things Catholic is not sufficient to explain all of his actions. In fact, there is much that is Catholic which was retained by Luther that was rejected by later reformers. But whether Luther didn't want to accept the apocrypha because it was in use by the Catholic church is not the issue, the reason he gave was because it was NOT part of the accepted Jewish canon as he was familar with it, and that reasoning (not its use by the Catholic church) is the reasons that protestants don't use it today. As far as using the apocrypha, even protestants will read from it for various reasons, they just don't consider it scripture. Are you now saying that Jews today do accept these portions of the LXX as scripture?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grace: No, almost all Christain Churches use the Septaguint derived translation , not the Tanach.

King James did not rely on anything save Tynsdale who himself relied upon Latin translations.

**these are not the facts as I understand them.

For instance the preface to my NIV bible begins with this sentence:

The New International Version is a completely new translation of the Holy Bible made by over a hundred scholars working directly from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.

Specifically with regard to question you have raised it says the following:

For the Old Testament the standard Hebrew text, the Masoretic Text, as published in the latest editions of Biblia Hebraica, was used throughout. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain material bearing on an earlier stage of the Hebrew text. They were consulted, as were the Samaritan Pentateuch and the ancient scribal traditions relating to textual changes. Sometimes a variant Hebrew reading in the margin of the Masoretic text was followed instead of the text itself. Such instances, being variants within the Masorectic tradition, are not specified by footnotes. In rare cases, words in the consonantal text were divided differently from the way they appear in the Masoretic Text. Footnotes indicate this. The translators also consulted the more important early versions--the Septuagint; Symmachus and Theodotion; the Vulgate; the Syriac Pe****ta; the Targums; and for the Psalms the Juxta Hebraica of Jerome. Readings from these version were occasionally followed where the Masoretic Text seemed doubtful and where accepted principles of textual criticism showed that one or more of these textual witnesses appeared to provide the correct reading. Such instances are footnoted. Sometimes vowel letters and vowel signs did not, in the judgment of the translators, represent that correct vowel for the original consonantal text. Accordingly some words were read with a different set of vowels. These instances are usually not indicated by footnotes.

So, it seems that, at least in my Christian bible, that it is as I said, the Hebrew Masoretic text that is the standard text used, other texts are also referred to, but when they are used they are footnoted.

I also take exception with what you present as the origin of the King James Version. The facts, as I understand them, are that the KJV was the work of a committee that turned primarily to the Textus Receptus for the New Testament, the Hebrew Masoretic text for the Old Testament and the Greek Septuagint for the Apocyrpha. It was NOT something that relied on nothing "save Tyndale."

The connection with Tyndale is found in the instructions King James I gave to the committee:

1. The ordinary Bible, read in the church, commonly called the Bishops' Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the original will permit....
2. The old ecclesiastical words to be kept; as the word church, not to be translated congregation, &c. [something that Tyndale had done]
3. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which has been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place, and the analogy of the faith....
4. No marginal notes at all to be affixed, but only for the explanation of the Hebrew or Greek words, which cannot, without some circumlocution, so briefly and fitly be expressed in the text.
5. Such quotations of places to be marginally set down, as shall serve for the fit references of one scripture to another....
6. These translations to be used when they agree better with the text than the Bishops' Bible, viz. Tyndale Bible, Coverdale Bible, Matthew's Bible, Great Bible, Geneva Bible.

Of course, given that Tyndale had provided the first widely accepted translation of the Bible into common English and the goal of the committee which translated the KJV being the same, the committee often deferred to a particular turn of a phrase and words coined by Tyndale. But that does not make true your assertion that "King James did not rely on anything save Tyndale". Even the reference to using the Bishops' Bible, Tyndale and others tells us that the real source was the text itself, in other words the original lanuages. These other versions were only guides, not the basis for the KJV.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

On similarities between Arabic and Hebrew. Well of course they are very closely related but Kaddish is Aramaic, not Hebrew.

I know it's Aramaic since it says so in the text that Rav posted. I meant that the word for holy is similar in Aramaic and Arabic, which isn't strange since both are Semitic languages, I didn't mention Hebrew at all.

As for Hebrew or Aramaic being borrowed from Arabic, nope.

No, I meant that the Bosnian word for blessed, blessing etc. is borrowed from Arabic. I didn't make that clear though, sorry.

 

[rachamim]

Grace: The Sept. was as you say, simply the lingua franca version of Scripture, just as Aramaic versions had been utlised prior to it. Sometimes people claim the Sept. is the first Jewish transaltion of Scripture out of Hebrew but of course that is far from true. it is however the basis for all modern translations including the Christains'.

You are correct about Christains and their vbiews of Old and New.

On Luther...no offence but you only have it partly correct. initially he courted local Jewry believing that once he was able to offer Christianity as he saw it truly being, Jews would naturally come around. When they rejected him as all other Christains he became a virulent anti-Jew (anti-Semite is a msinomer because Jews are far from the only Semites).

His main bile though was reserved for the Papacy and anything he saw as remotely Papist was rejected out of hand. Yes, he did retain some trappings but is this not natural for a cleric who was educated as a Catholic? The fact that later Protestant sects let go of these trappings is just as natural as in Christains letting go of Jewish roots as time went on, and just as Christains rejecting more and more of these Jewish trappings.

"Do Jews today accept the Apocrypha as Scripture." Yres, many do although Organised Jewry (an oxymoron actually) do not. Judaism is a highly individualised religion. Outside our homeland there are no paramount leaders as in the Papacy or Synods. Even within our homeland those paramount clerics, Chief Rabbis, only hold sway over political issues having to do with faith, not with individuals' beliefs and observances. As we see from Qumran, Apocrypha were used by most Jews of the day and it is only with the dispersal that we see their fall from Grace (no pun intended).


They have no place in formal liturgy but they do have a place in study and belief, as well as history with Maccabi I and II. I myself was taught them in religious schooling so indeed we still hold them dear.

Grace, no offence but your understanding is less than perfect if you believe most Christain Churches use the Tanach as the basis of their translations. Your NIV translation is jsut a very modern form but it has no place in Christain history or offocial standing. While you no doubt find it helpful, it is meaningless in the place of modern Chritianity.

The claim that it relies on Qumran is bizarre since not even experts have full access so that it would and should have no bearing on ANY transltions. A text without full context is meaningless save for curioisity value.

Thje Samritan Bible? Great. A bible of a group who combine tidbits of all 3 monotheistic faiths as well as curious culturalisms. What kind of transaltion would coem of that? My last posting was on Gezerim so that I had the pleasure of learning much about my cousins' faith and it is far from either Jewish as it is today, or Christain as it ever was. If a Christain Bible uses it, it cvan only be rife with error, as in believing Yahoshua to be the priestly lineiage as opposed to Aron. Such a basic gaffe will only result in an ineffectual text and if your version claims to incorporate even disparate elemtns of it, well, it goes without saying.

I see that text as leaping for autheniticty by claiming to incorporate ancient elements. Problem though is that those ancient elements are meaningless.I often use the following analogy, but I do hesistate here because you not knowing my feelings well will dismiss it as arrogance or worse and yet I hope you can grasp it...I have an old pair of socks but would take a new pair any day of the week if they are without holes. Fact is, age is meaningless without truth.


Jerome? An illiterate desert hermit from Turkey? this is mny best advice. Learn Hebrew and learn Greek. Do not worry about Aramaic unless you wish to leanr Jeiwsh Law. By learning Hebrew you learn the foundation of your own religion. Even if your text were extremely concise, we have many words that do not have transaltions, direct or otherwise, into English. Taking at face value the words of another person who is taking source material from all over the world is not making much sense.

You are also incorrect about James. It is almost entirely derived from Tynsdale although naturally you will not see that in the James footnotes. A kindly question, have you had the opportunity to read Tynsdale? If not, please do, then read James side by side as I have done and you will be suprised.

Regardless of your view on the derivative nature of James, the fact remains that as authenticity, it is devoid of meaning. It is so rife with errors that anyone having read source material would have no choice but to dismiss it whole heartedly.

 

[rachamim]

Abu: But the Aramaic is derived from Hebrew so it is pertienent. Kaddish is from Kadosh , as is Kiddush,etc.

Onbosnisn, well certainly it would have many loanwords from Arabic ,yes? Here the Cebuano tongue spoken by local Muslims also has loan words so that I can manage to communicate rather easily. Cannot say for sure but imagine I would find the same in most Islamic areas of the world.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Abu: But the Aramaic is derived from Hebrew so it is pertienent. Kaddish is from Kadosh , as is Kiddush,etc.

Onbosnisn, well certainly it would have many loanwords from Arabic ,yes? Here the Cebuano tongue spoken by local Muslims also has loan words so that I can manage to communicate rather easily. Cannot say for sure but imagine I would find the same in most Islamic areas of the world.

Yes it does have a lot of loan words from Arabic and because of that we (i.e. Bosnians and Jews) have quite a few similar words. For example, sedaka is Bosnian for charity and kurban refers to the slaughter offering, etc. So it's always interesting for me to learn about Jews and Judaism since there are so many similarities To add to that, a good friend of mine is from Eritrea and he speaks Tigrinya which is also a Semitic language and I can actually understand him sometimes when he speaks in his language. So I'm fascinated by these things.

 

[Grace Seeker]

"Do Jews today accept the Apocrypha as Scripture." Yres, many do although Organised Jewry (an oxymoron actually) do not. Judaism is a highly individualised religion. Outside our homeland there are no paramount leaders as in the Papacy or Synods. Even within our homeland those paramount clerics, Chief Rabbis, only hold sway over political issues having to do with faith, not with individuals' beliefs and observances. As we see from Qumran, Apocrypha were used by most Jews of the day and it is only with the dispersal that we see their fall from Grace (no pun intended).

This is new information for me and good to know. Thanks for sharing.

Grace, no offence but your understanding is less than perfect if you believe most Christain Churches use the Tanach as the basis of their translations. Your NIV translation is jsut a very modern form but it has no place in Christain history or offocial standing. While you no doubt find it helpful, it is meaningless in the place of modern Chritianity.

You are entitled to your opinion. And I certainly do believe that you formed it without intending to cause anyone offense, least of all me personally. As for the place of the NIV, yes it is a relatively modern version, but I think that you will find it has gained rather wide exceptance in the English speaking churches around the world today. It is, as you say, a new sock, though I expect you will never find any English sock that doesn't have some holes in it.

Beyond that, I really feel it is inappropriate of me to comment further in this thread. But, if you desire, though I am not a scholar I would be happy to continue to discuss textual criticism with you in some other thread.

 

[thirdwatch512]

Nachamides also had an apostate son who converted to Islam. Islam at the time was considered to be very progressive due to the influence of the Andalus Khalif.''

Ok, is Nachamides the same as Ramban(NachMANides?) I don't know if you mispelled it, or am talking about a whole other person.. Ramban's 2 sons were Jewish. They never became muslim. If one of them did, it would be alll over.

Where did you hear Ezra's son returned to the Jewish faith? He was never heard from again as far as I know.

Few details of his personal life in Spain are known, or why he left that country. It has been conjectured that the reason for his "troubled spirit," as he puts it, in Spain, was that his son, Isaac, was converted to Islam, though the son later returned to Judaism.
- Rabbi Louis Jacobs

Also, here is from a book..

There were at the time many reason for any person to convert to Islam, foremost perhaps the apprehension that Islam was conquering all of Europe after Poiters had been beaten back,etc.

Well, in the case of Isaac(Ibn Ezra's son)... There was a man named hibat allah who was a muslim.. And he taught a lot on science. But he would not let Christians/Jews join his classes. Only muslims. so Isaac embraces islam. However, many say he later left islam(as I cited in a source above.)


I do ask though.. Did many Jews and such become muslim under islamic rule? Anyone extremely notable?

 

[rav]

Grace, if you use the NIV version and attest to its reliability, then why does Isaiah 7:14 still translate "almah" as 'virgin': LINK.