Questions about Orthodox Chrisitanity and Catholicism answered by an Orthodox

[NoName55]

........ We believe in the 'fallen nature' - that Adam, by sinning, has corrupted human nature and we are born into a nature of sin.

Orthodox Christians accept Mary as the ever-Virgin Mother of God. We do not believe that she had other children. The passages that speak of Jesus' "brethren" or "brothers" can have two meanings. 1) Aramaic had no word for 'cousin' so the word 'brother' was used. There are many examples in the Bible where the word 'brother' does not mean actual biological brotherhood. 2) Jesus' "brethren" were St. Joseph's children from a previous marriage. He was an old man when he married Mary, and the marriage was only for security, for Mary was a Temple Virgin. There was to be no sexual relations between them. Orthodox Christians do not worship Mary or believe that she is God. We venerate her as the person that God chose to become incarnate from. We ask her to pray for us before her Son, Jesus Christ our God, in heaven.

Yes, the Orthodox Church does believe that Jesus is divine. The Trinity is a fundamental dogma in Orthodoxy, the rejection of which makes one a heretic. However, the Orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only, whereas Catholics and Protestants believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There are many more differences, and you can read about them here: http://ocab.netfirms.com/romancatholic.htm

for the attention of 2 geniuses who deleted speech of Brother Dr. miller and three other (pre-approved by Bros. Qatada and Woodrow) posts from "considering Islam"

one of those two "experts" on strategy even called me a paranoid so and so, and the second one said "posts deleted: Reason: A non-Muslim comes to us to us to learn about Islam and Muslims are demonstrating their ability to argue"

one of the rare occasions when I see that "learning" actually involves teaching

wa salam

 

[Isambard]

for the attention of 2 geniuses who deleted speech of Brother Dr. miller and three other (pre-approved by Bros. Qatada and Woodrow) posts from "considering Islam"

one of those two "experts" on strategy even called me a paranoid so and so, and the second one said "posts deleted: Reason: A non-Muslim comes to us to us to learn about Islam and Muslims are demonstrating their ability to argue"

one of the rare occasions when I see that "learning" actually involves teaching

wa salam

Your dilemma is solved by the simple fact that he said he was considering Islam, meaning not a muslim yet nor indication of how far along the thought process he was into considering abandoning his current faith. It isnt healthy to see demons under every hat.

Micheal, Im wondering how exactly the faith-only groups justify the passage in James 2 you mentioned that you dont need good works to save you. I mean the curent standard for them sounds an awful lot like the earlier idea of gnosis.:hmm:

 

[NoName55]

howdy stalker

I think you can give up on stalking me as I will not address any of your posts

 

[Michael]

Micheal, Im wondering how exactly the faith-only groups justify the passage in James 2 you mentioned that you dont need good works to save you. I mean the curent standard for them sounds an awful lot like the earlier idea of gnosis.:hmm:

They try several ways. They say that "true faith results in true works" and that James 2 is talking about those who say they have faith but have no works. However there are other verses such as Philippians 2:12 "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" that negate this.

Catholics and Orthodox believe that Holy Tradition is also a source of knowledge, and that we must look to the writings of the Church Fathers to see how to interpret Scripture. Protestants believe in "Scripture Alone" - each Protestant reads the Bible for himself and the Holy Spirit will provide the correct interpretation. However, if this was true, then all Protestants would believe the same things, but they don't - hence the reason there are thousands of different Protestant denominations. They all claim to believe the Bible, yet they can't agree on what the Bible actually says.

 

[Walter]

Hi Michael:

We should be clear about the faith and works issue. I believe that the Bible teaches that we are saved by our faith in God’s grace. You must be aware that the scriptures state “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Eph 2:8-9) If we were saved by works also, then there would be room for boasting in this regard.

Now of course works are important - in their context. James gives the example of a man hungry and destitute and .. actually, I should let James tell it himself.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:13-17) Do you see what James said “Thus also ..” So that is the context.

So where does our works fit in? Well Paul tells us about wood, hay and straw … actually Paul can do a better job of explaining it.

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor 3:11-15)

So the Bible teaches that salvation is by trusting in Jesus but then we work and receive a reward. However, no work, no reward, but saved “yet so as through fire”.

Best regards on your search for truth.
Grenville

 

[Michael]

Grenville,

Thanks for that. It seems a very good explanation.

Are you a Protestant? In the Orthodox Church, we don't believe in Scripture Alone. We believe in Holy Tradition as well (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and the teachings of the Holy Church Fathers.

 

[Walter]

Hi Michael:

I am simply a follower of the Way. I believe that the Bible contains the Word of God and should be read in a common sense sort of way. The Word of God would then include words referenced to God by the prophets whether directly or by visions. They also include words spoken by Jesus. The remainder is opinion and narration which is very valuable, even for instruction – but can be fallible.

Having read the Qur’an quite a few times, I believe that Mohammed was God’s prophet to call the Ishmaelites back to Himself, much like God sent prophets to the Israelites. Remember, God said that He would make both of them great nations. Regrettably, Christian tradition and Islamic tradition have kept Christians and Muslims apart for the past 1300 years.

We seem to have forgotten that Israelites, Ishmaelites, and Christians all have the same stated objective, to have a personal relationship with the God of their common patriarch Abraham. As has become typical, such a relationship is normally frustrated by religious leaders who see their role as one of controller rather than facilitator. Both the Israelite prophets, Jesus, and Mohammed expressed anger at such people.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Isambard]

Hi Michael:
Regards,
Grenville

He do you reconcile the differences in scripture between the two texts? As far as I am aware, both say the other is false.

 

[Michael]

I don't know if the two can be reconciled. An Orthodox lady I've talked to told me that the Qur'an is from the devil, but some Orthodox may have a more liberal view on it. St. John of Damascus wrote a treatise on Islam, but I haven't read it.

 

[Sarada]

Salaam Michael,

What is the meaning of the orthodox service at our ancestors' graveside after Easter?

 

[north_malaysian]

I believe that Mohammed was God’s prophet to call the Ishmaelites back to Himself,

Do Christians allowed to say this under Christian laws?:?

 

[Michael]

The specific festival that you referred to is known as Radonitsa. It occurs on the eighth or ninth day after Pascha (Easter). After the Divine Liturgy, the priest will serve a pannikhida (service for the dead)in the church after which he will bless the paschal foods that the faithful have brought with them. The clergy, with incense and candles, will then go in procession with the cross, followed by the faithful, to visit the graves of departed believers either in churchyards or in cemeteries. At the graves, paschal hymns are chanted together with the usual litanies for the departed, concluding with the moving "Memory Eternal" (Viechnaia pamiat).

The service for the dead is called a mnimosyno in Greek or a pannikhida in Slavonic. It can either be served at the person's graveside or in the church. When an Orthodox Christian dies, a pannikhida is usually served on the:

Third day after death
Ninth day after death
Fortieth day after death
One-year anniversary of death
Three-year anniversary of death(some will request a memorial every year on the anniversary of death).

The service has three purposes: 1) To pray for the repose of the person's soul; 2) To comfort the living left behind; and 3) To remind the living of their own mortality and the shortness of this life.

 

[Sarada]

The specific festival that you referred to is known as Radonitsa. It occurs on the eighth or ninth day after Pascha (Easter). After the Divine Liturgy, the priest will serve a pannikhida (service for the dead)in the church after which he will bless the paschal foods that the faithful have brought with them. The clergy, with incense and candles, will then go in procession with the cross, followed by the faithful, to visit the graves of departed believers either in churchyards or in cemeteries. At the graves, paschal hymns are chanted together with the usual litanies for the departed, concluding with the moving "Memory Eternal" (Viechnaia pamiat).

The service for the dead is called a mnimosyno in Greek or a pannikhida in Slavonic. It can either be served at the person's graveside or in the church. When an Orthodox Christian dies, a pannikhida is usually served on the:

Third day after death
Ninth day after death
Fortieth day after death
One-year anniversary of death
Three-year anniversary of death(some will request a memorial every year on the anniversary of death).

The service has three purposes: 1) To pray for the repose of the person's soul; 2) To comfort the living left behind; and 3) To remind the living of their own mortality and the shortness of this life.

Salaam Michael,

The Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox Radonitsa services which I have attended have always included offering some of the Paschal foods to the departed, and leaving them beside the headstone for the departed to enjoy. The family members will also partake of the Paschal foods, and share them with the other mourners. This will be repeated at each grave site. The foods consist of a special bread (Kulich, marked with the sign of the cross), a sweet pressed cottage cheese mixture (pascha), Easter eggs dyed red with beet juice, salt, ham and/or sausage, horseradish coloured red with beet juice.

This is one of the most beautiful and moving rituals that I have had the good fortune to participate in.

What is the meaning of each of the foods, and how they are prepared?

 

[doodlebug]

Michael,

When you say you are considering Islam, what exactly is holding you back? I ask because I converted to Islam from Catholicism (was a member of christianforums btw ) last year Sep4 (just had my 1 yr anniversary ) and it was helpful to me to discuss the blocking point with others on this and several other forums.

Also what helped me was to visit a mosque in my area and to talk face to face with a muslim woman so that it put a bit of reality into the situation.

Good luck in whatever you decide!

 

[Walter]

Hi Isambard:

You wrote:

He do you reconcile the differences in scripture between the two texts? As far as I am aware, both say the other is false.

Clearly you have read neither (please do not misinterpret this to be an insult). The Bible was written centuries before the Qur'an, and the Qur'an specifies that Muslims must believe the books that came before which are included in the Bible.

They are verses in the Qur'an which have been interpreted to be in conflict with the Bible and recorded history. However, they can also be interpreted to be in harmony with the scriptures and recorded history without damaging the integrity of the verses.

It is normal for persons to feel comfort and security in the interpretation that they first heard - even if it is a misinterpretation. History has shown that it takes great effort to get persons to even look at another perspective or another interpretation. It takes even greater effort to get them to consider it.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[doodlebug]

Hi Isambard:

You wrote:
Clearly you have read neither (please do not misinterpret this to be an insult). The Bible was written centuries before the Qur'an, and the Qur'an specifies that Muslims must believe the books that came before which are included in the Bible.

Could you please cite where in the Quran this is written?

They are verses in the Qur'an which have been interpreted to be in conflict with the Bible and recorded history. However, they can also be interpreted to be in harmony with the scriptures and recorded history without damaging the integrity of the verses.

I don't quite understand these two sentences. They seem to contradict themselves. The verses in the Bible which are in harmony with those in the Quran are those from the Gospel of Q, which are the verses that are in each gospel of the bible that actually agree with each other. I don't have my notes here but if you'd like I could quote several and show you how they compare to the Quran.

What I do know is that there are many contradictory verses in the four gospels.

It is normal for persons to feel comfort and security in the interpretation that they first heard - even if it is a misinterpretation. History has shown that it takes great effort to get persons to even look at another perspective or another interpretation. It takes even greater effort to get them to consider it.

indeed!

 

[Walter]

Hi North:

You wrote:

Do Christians allowed to say this under Christian laws?:?

There are two principal Christian Laws which are the same as for the Israelites:
1. The Lord is One, and we should love the Lord with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength.
2. We should love our neighbour as ourselves.

Now, most Christians will not acknowledge Mohammed as a Prophet, and they do not need to. The reason why they will not acknowledge Mohammed as a Prophet is through ignorance - they simply will not read the Qur'an, and they are not required to.

After reading the Qur'an and realizing that the contentious verses can be interpreted to be in harmony with the Bible and with recorded history, without damaging the integrity of the verses, I believe that Muslims who truly followed the Qur'an, and not Islamic tradition, are my brothers and sisters.

Michael, I'm sorry if my replies are off topic - I do not want to change the aim of your thread.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Hi Doodlebug:

As requested.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Sarada]

Can we get back to the original topic on this thread? whilst the discussions between Grenville and Doodlebug are fascinating, I don't see any connection between them and Catholicism and Greek/Russian Orthodoxy.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Can we get back to the original topic on this thread? whilst the discussions between Grenville and Doodlebug are fascinating, I don't see any connection between them and Catholicism and Greek/Russian Orthodoxy.

Ditto




(And also this note: Even as I consider Muslims, Christians and Jews to all be worshipping the same God and thus we should treat one another as brothers, please add me to the growing list of those who would have trouble reconciling the Isa of the Qur'an and the Jesus of the Bible, and while that would be my biggest issue, there are many more. But I don't think that discussion belongs in this thread.)


A few questions I do want to put to Michael --
Michael, you said you were raised Catholic, are waiting to be baptized in the Orthodox church, and are thinking of converting to Islam. It sounds like you are having trouble settling and are on some sort of spiritual search.

First, what may I ask, have you found lacking in (apparently both) Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity?
I ask, because so often when I meet someone who is on the verge of rejecting their Christian faith, when they share with me what it is that they don't like about it, I'm amazed at what they understand themselves to be rejecting. I think to myself, if that is what I had understood Christianity was all about, I think I would have rejected it too.

Also, if I understood you right you were raised Catholic, so I would assume that you were probably baptized as an infant. Is this true? And if so, why does the Orthodox church expect for you to be baptized again? Do they not recognize Catholic baptism as being valid?