Munda Pakistani
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Re: Christianity's God: Forgiving ... But How Just?
1) Thanks for the advice.
2) You're a psychiatrist?
1) Thanks for the advice.
2) You're a psychiatrist?
Questions about the Bible/Christianity
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ManchesterFolk
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Re: Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible
Read my post again:
This is such a joke. People who copy and paste are such losers. Think for yourself, and watch me refute your points. I can't take the bashing of others using lies:
So... Are you saying God cannot make light without the sun? :rollseyes
No, in Chapter 1:11-12:
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
It does not say every tree was created, God in Ch. 2 creates more trees.
G2:4-9
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The passage says:
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
It is saying that God out of the ground created them earlier and now is bringing them to Adam to be named.
See above for the differences of Ch. 2 descriptions of events from before and then what happend.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith#Lilith_as_Adam.27s_first_wife
Encouragement, and the fact that it is a sin is unrelated.
He was pleased with Adam and Eve and the first creations, there offsprings are the sinners and therefore are the ones who he is unpleased with.
The verses in question:
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Your examples make no sense:
In Genesis 12:8 is says:
8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
Nowhere is he called Jehova. The name he calls upon is "God almighty" obviosuly.
No where does it say he will die the day he eats the fruit:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
You sho your lack of brain power because what it says is basically "when you eat this the day you do, you will surely die" as in YOU WILL DIE AT A POINT IN TIME.
Adam did die, because he ate from the tree. Many say Adam would not have died ever is he did not eat from it.
Can it not be both wrong and immature?
It can be dangerous and stupid to jump off a cliff... Is that a contradiction?
God likes his offering better. He likes both of them equally. As you said he likes the OFFERING. Not the person.
The point of asking is not because he does not know, it is because he wants Cain to admit his wrong doing.
God is everything in Christian belief so God can be all those things.
What stupidity, very simple... Cain went away and Lords presence was gone, not because he could not be found or was well hidden but because God had no concern for him.
The verse says:
33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
They were sons of Anak. Who were really big. Not Nephilim.
Genesis 6:6 says: 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Exodus 32:14 says: 14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Numbers 23:17-19 shows God did not contradict. Balak did!
17 And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said unto him, What hath the LORD spoken?
18 And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The verses refer to two of each to be taken and then another verse says 7 of a certian kind are to be.
For example, I say bring 2 pairs of shoes, and then say bring 5 more pairs of the first pair you brought.
God asks him to save more of a certain kind after ordering him to get some more. No contradiction, just God saying brin more of that. Thanks.
I often ask for a refill.
Romans 3:10 says: 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
That means as he is writing there is not one righteous. That does not mean there was never righteous.
The two quotes refer to before and after a huge amount of rain has come. sigh...
So God can hate people who do something and still do it. God in Christian tradition is all powerful.
In Islam Allah hates other pretend God or "idols" yet Allah is a God. Therefore, he hates other humans things that emulate Allah.
Very simple. He can do it, but you can't.
He is not the author the people brought it upon themselves and wrote there own fates by there actions.
Should I go on or not? Most of the New Testament says it is a New covanent of God so according to Christians the Old Testament laws do not matter, so they aren't contradictions but changes according to Christians.
Therefore, I will stop since I don;t have the time or energy to continue refuting your claims.
Please respond if you wish to mine, but since all you are usefull for is copy and pasting, i'm not sure you ahve the capacity to respond.
Read my post again:
This is such a joke. People who copy and paste are such losers. Think for yourself, and watch me refute your points. I can't take the bashing of others using lies:
So... Are you saying God cannot make light without the sun? :rollseyes
No, in Chapter 1:11-12:
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
It does not say every tree was created, God in Ch. 2 creates more trees.
G2:4-9
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The passage says:
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
It is saying that God out of the ground created them earlier and now is bringing them to Adam to be named.
See above for the differences of Ch. 2 descriptions of events from before and then what happend.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith#Lilith_as_Adam.27s_first_wife
Encouragement, and the fact that it is a sin is unrelated.
He was pleased with Adam and Eve and the first creations, there offsprings are the sinners and therefore are the ones who he is unpleased with.
The verses in question:
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Your examples make no sense:
In Genesis 12:8 is says:
8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
Nowhere is he called Jehova. The name he calls upon is "God almighty" obviosuly.
No where does it say he will die the day he eats the fruit:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
You sho your lack of brain power because what it says is basically "when you eat this the day you do, you will surely die" as in YOU WILL DIE AT A POINT IN TIME.
Adam did die, because he ate from the tree. Many say Adam would not have died ever is he did not eat from it.
Can it not be both wrong and immature?
It can be dangerous and stupid to jump off a cliff... Is that a contradiction?
God likes his offering better. He likes both of them equally. As you said he likes the OFFERING. Not the person.
The point of asking is not because he does not know, it is because he wants Cain to admit his wrong doing.
God is everything in Christian belief so God can be all those things.
What stupidity, very simple... Cain went away and Lords presence was gone, not because he could not be found or was well hidden but because God had no concern for him.
The verse says:
33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
They were sons of Anak. Who were really big. Not Nephilim.
Genesis 6:6 says: 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Exodus 32:14 says: 14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Numbers 23:17-19 shows God did not contradict. Balak did!
17 And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said unto him, What hath the LORD spoken?
18 And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The verses refer to two of each to be taken and then another verse says 7 of a certian kind are to be.
For example, I say bring 2 pairs of shoes, and then say bring 5 more pairs of the first pair you brought.
God asks him to save more of a certain kind after ordering him to get some more. No contradiction, just God saying brin more of that. Thanks.
I often ask for a refill.
Romans 3:10 says: 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
That means as he is writing there is not one righteous. That does not mean there was never righteous.
The two quotes refer to before and after a huge amount of rain has come. sigh...
So God can hate people who do something and still do it. God in Christian tradition is all powerful.
In Islam Allah hates other pretend God or "idols" yet Allah is a God. Therefore, he hates other humans things that emulate Allah.
Very simple. He can do it, but you can't.
He is not the author the people brought it upon themselves and wrote there own fates by there actions.
Should I go on or not? Most of the New Testament says it is a New covanent of God so according to Christians the Old Testament laws do not matter, so they aren't contradictions but changes according to Christians.
Therefore, I will stop since I don;t have the time or energy to continue refuting your claims.
Please respond if you wish to mine, but since all you are usefull for is copy and pasting, i'm not sure you ahve the capacity to respond.
Munda Pakistani
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Re: Christianity's God: Forgiving ... But How Just?
1) Have thought about acting on your own advice?
2)Wow, never realised I wrote that well.
Did you even read the post?
Anyway, no worries mate.
1) Have thought about acting on your own advice?
2)Wow, never realised I wrote that well.
Did you even read the post?Anyway, no worries mate.
ManchesterFolk
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To tell you the truth, it looked like a "find anti-christian site and rephrase the bashing article in my own words" job, but maybe I am wrong.
He posted it after I already refuted him, so I wanted to show him that I answered him if he did not know or care to read.
SilentObserver
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I think the merging of threads has caused some confusion. For the record, my post about copy and pasting was directed at the copy and paste job by Iron beard, not Munda Pakistani.
hola Woodrow,
gracias for consolidating these thread i think it was a wise decision... if it is not too much trouble could i request that this thread be cleaned up a little bit though? i and a few others are trying to answers these questions and it will take a very long time because there are so many and they were asked all at once... this bickering about who is asking what and for what reason, or side conversations about how difficult it is to answer all 101 questions, or various other comments related to how it is not being done fast enough (and even this post) are only adding to the clutter which means some of our posts, answering these questions, are being lost or never seen...
i do not have very much time in the day to answer some of these very important questions... so i do try to put a lot of concentration in them and it is depressing that they are being lost amid the pointless scuffles...
gracias
Dios te bendiga
gracias for consolidating these thread i think it was a wise decision... if it is not too much trouble could i request that this thread be cleaned up a little bit though? i and a few others are trying to answers these questions and it will take a very long time because there are so many and they were asked all at once... this bickering about who is asking what and for what reason, or side conversations about how difficult it is to answer all 101 questions, or various other comments related to how it is not being done fast enough (and even this post) are only adding to the clutter which means some of our posts, answering these questions, are being lost or never seen...
i do not have very much time in the day to answer some of these very important questions... so i do try to put a lot of concentration in them and it is depressing that they are being lost amid the pointless scuffles...
gracias
Dios te bendiga
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glo
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Re: Christianity's God: Forgiving ... But How Just?
I am having a relaxed day today, and I am not really in the mood for some serious Bible search.
I will offer just a few thoughts, and hope that others may contribute more scholarly advice ...
God allows many things to happen (famine, war and disasters for one thing), which, from a human perspective a may consider 'unfair'! Why was I born into a rich developed nation, receiving daily provisions and more, good housing, schooling etc ... when others are born to live short impoverished lives, only to die of hunger???
As believers we cannot think like that. If God is just, then he is just ... even if we fail to understand it with our human minds.
With regards to people receiving God's grace despite having led a sinful life, does Islam not teach similarly? As soon as you dedicate you life to Allah, your past sins are wiped out?
Jesus said this (Sorry, it' a bit long, but I don't think I can shorten it without losing some of the meaning ...):
Is this so different in Islam?
But good deeds do matter very much in Christianity!
Look here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/32408-faith-vs-works.html?highlight=deeds+faith
Does Islam teach that? I haven't heard that before ... thank you for sharing it here.
Christians are meant to forgive others their sins, but God's forgiveness does not depend on people forgiving a sin first ... instead God only forgives us when we are prepared to forgive others.
Jesus said this:
Peace
Greetings, Munda PakistaniIn another thread, someone (a Christian) said that Muslims don't fully appreciate God's mercy and forgiveness. That got me thinking.
Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere below; I'm no scholar.
I am having a relaxed day today, and I am not really in the mood for some serious Bible search.
I will offer just a few thoughts, and hope that others may contribute more scholarly advice ...
Of course we believe that God is just - but that does not mean 'just' and 'fair' in the eyes of men.
God allows many things to happen (famine, war and disasters for one thing), which, from a human perspective a may consider 'unfair'! Why was I born into a rich developed nation, receiving daily provisions and more, good housing, schooling etc ... when others are born to live short impoverished lives, only to die of hunger???
As believers we cannot think like that. If God is just, then he is just ... even if we fail to understand it with our human minds.
With regards to people receiving God's grace despite having led a sinful life, does Islam not teach similarly? As soon as you dedicate you life to Allah, your past sins are wiped out?
Jesus said this (Sorry, it' a bit long, but I don't think I can shorten it without losing some of the meaning ...):
Whoever dedicates his life to the Lord, received the full reward - regardless at what stage of his life this occurs.
Is this so different in Islam?
To my knowledge there are no different levels of heaven ...
But good deeds do matter very much in Christianity!
Look here:
You may find this thread interesting:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/32408-faith-vs-works.html?highlight=deeds+faith
That highlighted sentence is interesting!
Does Islam teach that? I haven't heard that before ... thank you for sharing it here.
Christians are meant to forgive others their sins, but God's forgiveness does not depend on people forgiving a sin first ... instead God only forgives us when we are prepared to forgive others.
Jesus said this:
No worries, brother ... my post is longer than yours!Sorry for the long post.
Peace
ManchesterFolk
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You wish for me to give you the answer then very well, you wrote:
I would like to point you towards your own beliefs if I may:
Hadith Qudsi 34:
On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (sal Allaahu alayhi waSalam) say: Allah the Almighty said:
O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.
Pretty easy, ask and get forgived, what about the devout believers?
Your religion is the same...
I would like to point you towards your own beliefs if I may:
Hadith Qudsi 34:
On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (sal Allaahu alayhi waSalam) say: Allah the Almighty said:
O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.
Pretty easy, ask and get forgived, what about the devout believers?
Your religion is the same...
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
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Good idea. I will begin work on it. A number of the questions are essentialy duplicates, so I will start with those.
If I erroneously delete an important post please let me know and I will restore it.
If I erroneously delete an important post please let me know and I will restore it.
gracias Woodrow,
please just do not delete any of the 100 questions (many are redundant) or any of my direct answers to them (even where i point out it is redundant) i would like ironbeard to have the opportunity to explain if he meant something else by his question than how i understood he meant it... i am going to index links to all 100 of my answers when i am done so i need all 100 posts intact...
i have been online too much today i should go now, goodnight everybody!
mucho gracias
glo
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I am quite sure that Munda Pakistani's original post was not a copy-and-paste job.
His quote
Peace, guys ... this thread seems to be escalating! :rollseyes
His quote
seems to refer to my quote in the 'Why not Islam' thread:
It could be a coincidence, of course, but it looks genuine to me ...
Peace, guys ... this thread seems to be escalating! :rollseyes
ManchesterFolk
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duskiness
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buenos noches Jayda!
Maybe rest of us could help you on your "quest". Like write answer to some and pm them to you? Then you could decide whether to use them or not? just thinking aloud...
hola ironbeard,
these are the passages you identified:
"As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah." (Luke 11:29)
"But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;" (Matthew 12:39)
And here is a link to Matthew 16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 16;&version=49;
The answer to your question comes to us from Matthew 12: 40
"for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Jesus actually explains what he means by "the sign of Jonah," he is not directly saying that what happened to Jonah will happen to Him, (otherwise he would have been eaten by a whale), His sign is that He will be buried in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights... which He was.
okay so here is your question again:
Jesus did not mean that what literally happened to Jonah would literally happen to Him, he was saying that just like JOnah was in a whale for 3 days, He would be buried in the Heart of the Earth for three days... that is the only likeness to Jonah's situation that he promises.
gracias
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hola ironbeard,
the two passages that you quoted are
"And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is g(Q)ood; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.""(Matthew 19:17)
and
"You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20: 3)
your question mixes two different subjects and confuses what the rich man is asking...
the two subjects are the christological nature of God, and our relationship with God.
"Theologia" (the nature of God) is a subject that addresses questions like "what does God look like" "how is Jesus' divinity manifested?" "how is Jesus both Man and God?" essentially these questions are aimed at telling us about what God is as a physical/spiritual being. There is no one place in the Bible that addresses theologia, but instead it is spread out in the Bible (and usually connected to some other oikonomic context) and must be organized to give us any coherent picture about God, the over arching picture is that we will never fully understand God as a spiritual or physical being, He is too complicated and we will only know the things He wants us to know, and that is very little... this is why most of our doctrines that organize coherently the revelations we have concerning Gods essence are called "Mysteries" like "the Mystery of the Trinity."
"Oikonomia" (our relationship with God) is the second subject... this is what the purpose of the Bible is, it covers things like Gods intervention in the course of human development, Gods plan for us, Gods covenants with mankind, Gods laws mankind must obey, and other things related to the interaction between man and God. this is something fully revealed to us... because it is the purpose of revelation. Sacred scriptures are inherently Oikonomic.
returning to your question the man was asking Jesus an oikonomic question. "And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain (B)eternal life?"" (Matthew 19: 16). The Ten Commandments are also an Oikonomic event, God explains His reasons for telling them the commandments in Exodus 19:
Here God saysnthat He is giving them these Commandments to be a part of His covenant... the purpose of the commandments is not to know about His nature (theologia), but to know what is expected of them (oikonomia).
it is the same oikonomic scenario for both the man in the NT and the Israelites in the OT... and so it is the same oikonomic answer. "Do this," a theologic explanation on the nature of God was neither required nor appropriate for either case... although when God speaks about Himself obviously He means Himself in all His theological attributes, which includes things known, such as His Triune Oneness, All powerfulness, Omniscience et cetera... and things unknown/unrevealed.
so here is your question
and the answer is that you are confusing two separate topics... it was an oikonomic question a theologic answer was not appropriate... it is simply assumed in Gods oikonomic answer (in both Exodus and NT) He is talking about The God, with all His theologic attributes.
gracias
Mucho gracias!
please if you wish to answer feel free to, no need to send it to me, i am not any kind of authority!
honestly i do not know very much about other denominations... i am just answering as completely as i can for what I know about Catholicism (i am Catholic)... i am only using four resources, the New American Standard Bible, which is our only English translation approved for liturgical use by the Vatican, the Catholic Catechism which explains almost all matters doctrinal and dogmatic, the Catholic Encyclopedia which has wonderful encyclopedic knowledge that is considered imprimatur, and some personal resources... my family is very good friends with our Cardinal so sometimes i ask him but most of the time i just call a monastary
most of these questions are very easy some are a little redundant and many are based on misunderstandings or errors in interpretation (from a Catholic standpoint)... they are not difficult... i think ironbeard can learn a lot if we answer these for him...
i think right now i am on 7? but feel free to answer any you choose! i would like to index them with one post in the end so he can see our answers easier and ask any more questions he may have...
Dios te bendiga!
Keltoi
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7...and how many to go? You must realize that ironbeard isn't actually interested in your answers. Perhaps I'm being negative, but I would hate to see someone spend so much time and effort to answer these questions when it will only lead to the same thread a week or two from now. I'm giving you reps for the effort however.
Gracias...
94 if you include question 7. i think if ironbeard and the muslims that said they are good questions were interested in the questions than they must be interested in our answers too...