Questions directed to atheists and agnostics only
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snakelegs
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well, if this is true (about the fly) - i have no explanation for how the prophet would've known it.
there was a tribe in africa who knew about a binary star system - how did they know it? i think there are different ways of knowing.
but it all boils down to....i don't know either.
barney
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Can you show the links to some infomation on house flys wings and one being curative of the disease in the other wing? I cant find anything.
Pygoscelis
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I've never heard of this wing thing either.
But if it turns out that there isn't one wing that causes a disease and another curing it, I really wouldn't hold that against the Quran. This is clearly a metaphor, no?
But if it turns out that there isn't one wing that causes a disease and another curing it, I really wouldn't hold that against the Quran. This is clearly a metaphor, no?
Trumble
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It would depend on the context, of course (this sort of stuff is totally meaningless in isolation - what was the Prophet talking about?) but I'd also read it as a metaphor, although of course I make no claim of being scholastically competent to do so. Something on the lines of 'while an event or person may seem unpleasant don't immediately dismiss it/them as some good may come of it/them'.
I assume you are referring to THIS article at IslamOnline.net? Folks can form their own opinions as to how 'amazing' or otherwise this may be. Don't get your hopes up, though.
BTW, if the Prophet had any extraordinary knowledge (for his time) on this subject don't you think he mght have known that flies carry disease primarily on their feet, not their wings?
cali dude
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Religious people might think that agnostics or atheists are bad because they don't believe in God or a religion. But this is not true at all. Not believing in religion or God doesn't make anyone bad. They still have certain values to determine right and wrong. It may not be based upon any particular religion. But still there is right and wrong. In fact, their ethics might be actually better than some of the religious people as they don't blindly follow just about anything a religion says. In certain situations, religion can make you bad as brainwashed people of religion do commit certain acts without thinking about the morality of these acts.
So I don't think it makes sense for religious people to doubt agnostics and atheists' moral values.
Have a good day...
So I don't think it makes sense for religious people to doubt agnostics and atheists' moral values.
Have a good day...
Trumble
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It's also rather disproved by history; both Greek and Roman cultures (and probably others I am less familiar with) had highly evolved ethical and moral codes that were philosophical and not religious in origin. Sure, there were what would be considered today some pretty unpleasant aspects to those societies, but virtually all of them could be found in later Christian and muslim societies as well.
Grace Seeker
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Religious people might think that agnostics or atheists are bad because they don't believe in God or a religion. But this is not true at all. Not believing in religion or God doesn't make anyone bad. They still have certain values to determine right and wrong. It may not be based upon any particular religion. But still there is right and wrong. In fact, their ethics might be actually better than some of the religious people as they don't blindly follow just about anything a religion says. In certain situations, religion can make you bad as brainwashed people of religion do commit certain acts without thinking about the morality of these acts.
So I don't think it makes sense for religious people to doubt agnostics and atheists' moral values.
Have a good day...
I have a question about the part I've highlighted in bold. I am not arguing that religious people are in fact better. What I want to know is by what standard one would determine that one person is better than another? You gave an example that religious people might following just about anything a religion says and you classify this as brainwashing. You say that thus brainwashed religious people commit certain acts without thinking about the morality of these acts.
I want to know what makes being brainwashed bad? Why is independent thought a good thing, by what means do you conclude that?
Again, I am not arguing that you are wrong in your conclusion, but I want to know by what means you are able to determine that you are right? Other than that you personally value independent thought over brainwashed religious thought, what really makes one better (as opposed to personally preferred) versus the other?
cali dude
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Of course it would help if you could give us some examples of acts and we could see what makes better sense, whether it's agnostics or atheists' approach or is it religious approach that makes better sense.
But let me give you some examples in from real life.
I know a lady at work who is strict vegetarian and yet doesn't believe in any religion at all. This person is vegetarian because she sees that brutality to animals is wrong. The religion her parents followed does not forbid eating meat at all.
Then I also know another lady at work who considers herself very religious who drinks alcohol and is non-vegetarian. A few times she has asked me why I am vegetarian and how come I don't drink alcohol. I have argued with her in past and she agreed with my reasons not to eat meat. But still she will keep bringing up the subject and I have learned to ignore her.
Now would you agree that it's immoral to keep eating meat even though we know that brutality on animals is wrong? Someone, for example the first lady in my example, doesn't follow any religion and yet knows a good reason not to eat meat but the other lady, who follows religion blindly, doesn't realize this and keeps doing even though on occasions, I have convinced her that eating meat is wrong.
Also as far as brainwashing goes, extreme examples would be 9/11. Those terrorists were probably brainwashed to believe that they would meet Allah if they did this.
Grace Seeker
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You didn't even approach my question. As I said it is not about the content: eating meat, brutality to animals, flying airplanes into buildings. Maybe they are all wrong. Maybe they are all morally acceptable. You seem to want to focus on the content. I want to focus on the process, so I have no examples, examples get us back to content.
You said: "In fact, their ethics might be actually better than some of the religious people as they don't blindly follow just about anything a religion says." That is a comment about the process by which we determine something to be right or wrong.
I'll rephrase my question for you: What makes a list of right and wrong that is determined apart from religion any better than one that is determined through religion?
and why are you "cali dude" don't eat meat ,do you think that you will not be able to digest it or what ?
i will ask you "is your body equipped with the tools to be able to cut the meat and chew it by your teeth and then your digestion system can extract the usefull elements to your body ?"
so your body itself is a prove that humans can eat meat ...
i do agree with you for not eating the pig's meat ...
i will ask you "is your body equipped with the tools to be able to cut the meat and chew it by your teeth and then your digestion system can extract the usefull elements to your body ?"
so your body itself is a prove that humans can eat meat ...
i do agree with you for not eating the pig's meat ...
cali dude
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It isn't matter of digesting meat. It's matter of moral values. If causing pain is wrong, then it seriously doesn't make sense to cause pain to the animals. Sure we need to cause some pain to vegetables and fruits in order to survive, even if this can be scientifically proven that it's pain, but our intent should always be to minimize the pain. Our intent should always be to minimize what's bad...
cali dude
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There are a few ways to determine right and wrong. One of them is that you should look at your own self and see whether or not you would consider it wrong if it was done to you. Another way is to see if certain act helps humanity or if hurts humanity. If it hurts humanity, then it's wrong, if it helps humanity, it's right but we should still keep individual rights into consideration.
First : to the disease to be primarily concentrated on the feets of the fly doesn't deny or contradict that its whole body and wings also have this disease .
Second: in the times of the prophet the bacteriology field of science has not been invented yet.
so how can any one knows that there is a cure or antibiotic in any part of the fly's body ?????
third: this fact of the antibiotics that exists on the house fly and exists on its body has only been proved by non-muslim australian scientists here is the link in year 2002 and also this site named www.abc.net.au is not an islamic site its a science and health magazine
so the question remains how did the prophet (peace be upon him) know that there is a cure(antibiotic) on any part of the house fly ?????:?
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actually i wanted to write the hadith with another words that was mentioned also in the same book of sahih bukhary:
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease." (authentic Sahih Bukhari)
and here is the link that says what did the australian scientists discover.
and its wonderfull that they discovered something that was already mentioned inthe islamic texts
i will try soon to mention other scientific miracles in the islamic text (Quran & Sunna)
and here is the link that says what did the australian scientists discover.
and its wonderfull that they discovered something that was already mentioned inthe islamic texts
i will try soon to mention other scientific miracles in the islamic text (Quran & Sunna)
here is another verse in the Quran :
chapter 006 verse 125 :-
YUSUFALI translation: Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
SHAKIR translation: Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe.
so what do you know about the pressure and oxygen levels when you go up higher ??
chapter 006 verse 125 :-
YUSUFALI translation: Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
SHAKIR translation: Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe.
so what do you know about the pressure and oxygen levels when you go up higher ??
Pygoscelis
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This wasn't directed at me, but if I may comment anyway,
Brainwashed thinking is robotic. Done not because something is right (by which I mean socially constructive) or wrong (by which I mean socially destructie) but just because it is the thing you ae told you are supposed to do.
In my opinion, absent some independent thought, you can not have morality and immorality. You can only have obedience and disobedience. People cloud it with emotionalism and dub it "morality", but it isn't. Morality requires you to draw on your empathy to others and consider what is going to benefit and what is going to harm.
Submission or Nonsubmission to authority has no moral dimension. Blind and unquestioning submission PRECLUDES morality. For in such case one doesn't do something good because its right, one does it because they are commanded to. And if they were commanded something wrong, they'd do it just as readily.
What worries me is when people declare "Right" and "Wrong" as obedience and disobedience to the authority figure. This is scary. And it is a big part of why people fly planes into buildings, drink poisoned cool aid and burn witches.
I believe that we all have an inate sense of what is right and what is wrong, based on simple empathy and self preservation. And I believe that dogma (be it religious or political or otherwise) and social programming (such as trends, fashion and peer pressure) can often subdue this inate sense and enable people to do terrible things they'd otherwise never consider.
Some religious people have hidden their inate moral compass from themselves so well that they wonder if Ateists can have any sense of morality. It scares me when they question this, and makes me ask them if they would become murderous theiving monsters if they lost their faith. Many upon considering this rediscover their inate moral sense. But some others actually respond that they WOULD become such monsters. And that is very scary indeed!
This is not easy for me to explain. I hope the above was coherent.
Brainwashed thinking is robotic. Done not because something is right (by which I mean socially constructive) or wrong (by which I mean socially destructie) but just because it is the thing you ae told you are supposed to do.
In my opinion, absent some independent thought, you can not have morality and immorality. You can only have obedience and disobedience. People cloud it with emotionalism and dub it "morality", but it isn't. Morality requires you to draw on your empathy to others and consider what is going to benefit and what is going to harm.
Submission or Nonsubmission to authority has no moral dimension. Blind and unquestioning submission PRECLUDES morality. For in such case one doesn't do something good because its right, one does it because they are commanded to. And if they were commanded something wrong, they'd do it just as readily.
What worries me is when people declare "Right" and "Wrong" as obedience and disobedience to the authority figure. This is scary. And it is a big part of why people fly planes into buildings, drink poisoned cool aid and burn witches.
I believe that we all have an inate sense of what is right and what is wrong, based on simple empathy and self preservation. And I believe that dogma (be it religious or political or otherwise) and social programming (such as trends, fashion and peer pressure) can often subdue this inate sense and enable people to do terrible things they'd otherwise never consider.
Some religious people have hidden their inate moral compass from themselves so well that they wonder if Ateists can have any sense of morality. It scares me when they question this, and makes me ask them if they would become murderous theiving monsters if they lost their faith. Many upon considering this rediscover their inate moral sense. But some others actually respond that they WOULD become such monsters. And that is very scary indeed!
This is not easy for me to explain. I hope the above was coherent.
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thanks for your neutral comment
i think that you are really seeking the truth
so visit this site it may help you http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htm
or download the whole pdf book http://www.islam-guide.com/islam-guide.pdf
i also recommend The Bible, The Qur'an & Science by French prof. Moris bocay ,i have it printed in arabic and i am reading it this days.
i also wanted to tell you something about the FITRA (Remember it) ,here is a hadith of the prophet (peace be upon him)
in the book of sahih bukhary
Narated By Abu- Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "No child is born except on Al-Fitra (Islam) and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian, as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?" Then he recited:
"The religion of pure Islamic Faith (Hanifa),(i.e. to worship none but Allah), The pure Allah's Islamic nature with which He (Allah) has created mankind. Let There be no change in Allah's religion (i.e. to join none in Allah's worship). That is the straight religion; but most of men know not..." (30.30)
and i will also mention that i know that christians in my country must take their childs to the church after they are born for the baby to become a christian (so what was he before becoming christian , it is like they know that he is born a muslim)
also i would like to say that the right fitra in every human leads him to believe the existence of a GOD but if this fitra is corupted then you will see what i see here from some of the members...
Grace Seeker
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Don't you suppose that some one else may have a different set of values than you? There are those that actually enjoy pain, maybe we should inflict pain on them? Why is it a good thing to treat others the way we wish to be treated? Why not just look out for No. !? What is so wrong with that? Why are the things that you hold as good, good? You say that they are so, you believe them to be so, but what is it that really makes them good beyond your simple belief that they are good?
Is an infant morally wrong because just wants what it wants and doens't think of the things you say may for good morals?