"Questions for Jehovah Witnesses"

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o, if I understand you two correctly, both JWs and Mormons would be polytheistic -- believing in more than one divine being.

I can't speak for the JWs, but Mormons are polytheistic even though you would have a hard time getting one to admit it. They claim to only worship the Father in the name of the Son. So they really don't like to be called polytheists. But they believe that Jesus and Elohim are divine beings. And they believe that there are many Gods.
 
A question for Hiroshi,

Grace Seeker posted:


So, if I understand you two correctly, both JWs and Mormons would be polytheistic -- believing in more than one divine being.


Both you and I believe protestants and catholics are polytheists, although they refuse to admit it. Doesn't this mean you also are polytheistic[/QUOTE]
 
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:sl:

To me, Islam makes the most sense of ANY religion in its teaching about God (Allah). There is One God. No equals, no sons of God, no one can be equal, or be compared to or approach God, avoid Shirk, etc. The shahada sums it up. There is no God but God and Mohammad is his Messenger. Now that is hard to argue with is it not? :statisfie
That is very easy to argue with. But I wouldn't be allowed to do so on this Islamic discussion board. I've already had plenty of warnings.
 
So, if I understand you two correctly, both JWs and Mormons would be polytheistic -- believing in more than one divine being.
You follow the Bible surely? Hebrews 2:7 speaks of angels (quoting Psalms 8:5). But in that verse in Psalms the actual Hebrew word used is "elohim" which literally means: "gods". So the Bible calls the angels: "gods". Similarly Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus: "Mighty God" Hebrew: "el-gibbor"

The term "god" simply means: "mighty one". In the Bible it is most usually applied to the Almighty One Jehovah, but not always.
 
You follow the Bible surely? Hebrews 2:7 speaks of angels (quoting Psalms 8:5). But in that verse in Psalms the actual Hebrew word used is "elohim" which literally means: "gods". So the Bible calls the angels: "gods". Similarly Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus: "Mighty God" Hebrew: "el-gibbor"

The term "god" simply means: "mighty one". In the Bible it is most usually applied to the Almighty One Jehovah, but not always.


Is that a YES or a NO to my question?

I don't see where you get the interpretation from Psalm 8 that angels are being called gods. I've never considered angels to be diety. Do you?

And though Elohim is a plural word, there is no evidence that the Hebrews of the old covenant actually believed in many gods. Again, do you?

I have no problem with calling Jesus God (whether based on Isaiah or elsewhere). But I disagree that this is a reference to a second god. As I understand you, that IS what you think. Correct?
 
That is very easy to argue with. But I wouldn't be allowed to do so on this Islamic discussion board. I've already had plenty of warnings.


I'd venture to say it isn't at all easy to argue against, but a good escape plan on your part to avoid an intelligent thought per regard to your faith!

all the best
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1383452 said:



I'd venture to say it isn't at all easy to argue against, but a good escape plan on your part to avoid an intelligent thought per regard to your faith!

all the best

No, I have no doubt that he thinks it easy. But it is true that we have seen him give the arguments he no doubt would repeat here before, and showed him how they're wrong.
 
Is that a YES or a NO to my question?

I don't see where you get the interpretation from Psalm 8 that angels are being called gods. I've never considered angels to be diety. Do you?

And though Elohim is a plural word, there is no evidence that the Hebrews of the old covenant actually believed in many gods. Again, do you?

I have no problem with calling Jesus God (whether based on Isaiah or elsewhere). But I disagree that this is a reference to a second god. As I understand you, that IS what you think. Correct?
Early apologists and theologians like Justin Martyr and Origen referred to Jesus as a second God. It was only centuries later orthodoxy that branded such ideas as heresy.

There is only only "Almighty" God with the name Jehovah. And there are many false gods that are worshipped by the pagans. But there are also others that the Bible calls "gods" that are divine beings, mighty in power and authority but not necessarily rivals with Jehovah. JWs believe that there is only one person that is Almighty, not three. But if the scriptures say that many others can properly be called "gods" then we accept that also.
 
Early apologists and theologians like Justin Martyr and Origen referred to Jesus as a second God. It was only centuries later orthodoxy that branded such ideas as heresy.

There is only only "Almighty" God with the name Jehovah. And there are many false gods that are worshipped by the pagans. But there are also others that the Bible calls "gods" that are divine beings, mighty in power and authority but not necessarily rivals with Jehovah. JWs believe that there is only one person that is Almighty, not three. But if the scriptures say that many others can properly be called "gods" then we accept that also.


Hiroshi, you are still skirting my question.

The "false gods" that the OT speaks of are false because they really aren't gods at all. They may be in the eyes of other nations, but not in Israel's because Israel knows the one true god who is Jehovah, God Almighty. There are no other gods, there being one and only one God, all other pretenses at gods are simply false. That God is almighty is one of his traits, but not what makes him unique among the gods, for there are no other gods but God. It isn't that there there is only one god who is almighty and many other gods that are less than almighty. There is only one divine being.

What I am hearing you say is that you while you do not believe Jesus is Jehovah, God Almighty, you do believe that he is some lesser god, but a god nonetheless -- Jesus, God less-than-mighty -- and certainly not a false god. Is this correct?
 
Hiroshi, you are still skirting my question.

The "false gods" that the OT speaks of are false because they really aren't gods at all. They may be in the eyes of other nations, but not in Israel's because Israel knows the one true god who is Jehovah, God Almighty. There are no other gods, there being one and only one God, all other pretenses at gods are simply false. That God is almighty is one of his traits, but not what makes him unique among the gods, for there are no other gods but God. It isn't that there there is only one god who is almighty and many other gods that are less than almighty. There is only one divine being.

What I am hearing you say is that you while you do not believe Jesus is Jehovah, God Almighty, you do believe that he is some lesser god, but a god nonetheless -- Jesus, God less-than-mighty -- and certainly not a false god. Is this correct?
The angels are not false gods. The Bible calls them "gods" in an approving way. Similarly the Israelite judges was called gods in Psalms 82:6 "I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High." When accused of making himself "God" by the Jews, Jesus pointed to Psalms 82:6 and compared his godship to their's (John 10:34-36) in order to defend his position. If Jesus had been claiming to be God Almighty then this argument would have been no defence at all.
 
The angels are not false gods. The Bible calls them "gods" in an approving way. Similarly the Israelite judges was called gods in Psalms 82:6 "I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High." When accused of making himself "God" by the Jews, Jesus pointed to Psalms 82:6 and compared his godship to their's (John 10:34-36) in order to defend his position. If Jesus had been claiming to be God Almighty then this argument would have been no defence at all.

Which still doesn't answer my question. YES or NO? Do you claim that Jesus was a god, a divine being in addition to Jehovah?
 
Which still doesn't answer my question. YES or NO? Do you claim that Jesus was a god, a divine being in addition to Jehovah?
I thought that I had made that clear. Yes I do claim that. This was the understanding that the early Christians had from the beginning. In the book "Early Christian Doctrines" by J. N. D. Kelly. Apologist Justin Martyr is quoted as speaking of Jesus as "a second God" on page 101 and on page 148. On page 132, Origen is cited as saying that John "accurately describes the Son simply as theos, not ho theos [referring to John 1:1]. In relation to the God of the universe He merits a secondary degree of honour; for He is not absolute goodness and truth, but His goodness and truth are a reflection and image of the Father's." And on page 128 Origen is quoted as saying that "His Deity is derivative and He is thus a "secondary God" (deuteros theos)."
 
I thought that I had made that clear. Yes I do claim that. This was the understanding that the early Christians had from the beginning. In the book "Early Christian Doctrines" by J. N. D. Kelly. Apologist Justin Martyr is quoted as speaking of Jesus as "a second God" on page 101 and on page 148. On page 132, Origen is cited as saying that John "accurately describes the Son simply as theos, not ho theos [referring to John 1:1]. In relation to the God of the universe He merits a secondary degree of honour; for He is not absolute goodness and truth, but His goodness and truth are a reflection and image of the Father's." And on page 128 Origen is quoted as saying that "His Deity is derivative and He is thus a "secondary God" (deuteros theos)."

:sl:
So it sounds to me as though the JW approach is mostly to rely on Origen. What about all the Greek grammar rules that go against Origen's interpretation of John 1:1? There is Granville Sharp's rule, Colwell's rule, etc... Any good Greek grammarian will have no problem disposing of Origen's misinterpretation of John 1:1.

When I used to study Greek I read the JW New World Translation. I felt that it was inconsistent and reflected a real theological bias. Grammatically and contextually it is highly unlikely that the Logos could be "a god" in John. Origen is not well supported at all by scholars or grammarians.
 
:sl:
So it sounds to me as though the JW approach is mostly to rely on Origen. What about all the Greek grammar rules that go against Origen's interpretation of John 1:1? There is Granville Sharp's rule, Colwell's rule, etc... Any good Greek grammarian will have no problem disposing of Origen's misinterpretation of John 1:1.

When I used to study Greek I read the JW New World Translation. I felt that it was inconsistent and reflected a real theological bias. Grammatically and contextually it is highly unlikely that the Logos could be "a god" in John. Origen is not well supported at all by scholars or grammarians.
Did you know that one of the very earliest translations of John's gospel, into Sahidic Coptic in the thid century, also translated the verse to say that the Logos was "a god"? This well reflected Christian understanding of the verse before fourth century trinitarianism took control.

Please see this link:
http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/
 
Did you know that one of the very earliest translations of John's gospel, into Sahidic Coptic in the thid century, also translated the verse to say that the Logos was "a god"? This well reflected Christian understanding of the verse before fourth century trinitarianism took control.

Please see this link:
http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/

Are you saying that Early Christianity was openly polytheistic, but became sugar coated to resemble monotheism by 4th Century Trinitarianism?
 
Are you saying that Early Christianity was openly polytheistic, but became sugar coated to resemble monotheism by 4th Century Trinitarianism?
We keep seeing this term "polytheist". If you define this word to refer to those who worship many pagan gods, then no. Christians did not do that. But the Bible, the Jews and the early Christians all agree that the word "god" has a wide meaning and can properly be applied to others apart from the Almighty.
 
We keep seeing this term "polytheist". If you define this word to refer to those who worship many pagan gods, then no. Christians did not do that. But the Bible, the Jews and the early Christians all agree that the word "god" has a wide meaning and can properly be applied to others apart from the Almighty.

In my understanding polytheistic means worshiping more than one God. We believe there is but one God as by definition God is omnipotent and you can only have one omnipotent being. Therefore if a person is worshiping more than one god, (Polytheistic) those other than the one god are not real and are pagan beliefs.


Perhaps we have differing views as to what defines God. What is your definition of God?

Mine is: An all powerful, all knowing, eternal being with no equals.
 
We keep seeing this term "polytheist". If you define this word to refer to those who worship many pagan gods, then no. Christians did not do that. But the Bible, the Jews and the early Christians all agree that the word "god" has a wide meaning and can properly be applied to others apart from the Almighty.

I disagree that this is a correct understanding of the Bible, the Jews, or the majority of early Christian thought if meant to imply that any of them actual presuppose the existence of a god other than God, but only that they acknowledged that other people spoke of and worshipped what was termed god in pagan cultures. A good example of this is the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal. I contend Elijah didn't fear these other gods because he didn't think they would perform, but because they didn't exist. To suggest otherwise would be to say that the Jews were not monotheists at all, but that they were polytheists with a preferred national god. That's why you keep seeing the term.


Because of the influence of gnosticism, some Christians would later argue to make room for the concept of "lesser" gods, but I don't concur that this was the intial Christian view.
 
uncreated being.


ah but Jesus was very much created and borne from a womb and 'died' per your religion.. making him both ephemeral and created in every sense of the word.. what a difficult dilemma for you typical white educated guy!
 

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