In which case we can hardly call them good at all.
Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items
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In which case we can hardly call them good at all.
Grace Seeker
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This converation with Hiroshi has, I think, been meaningful. But I am curious how it is that it ended up in this thread rather than in the Questions of Jehovah Witnesses thread? Anyway, can we return to Al-manar's analysis of the Quran vs. the Bible here but continue this other discussion regarding JW views there?
Al-manar
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That is true ,and I suggest the moderators that the previous posts regarding JW better be moved to its right thread about JW ,in order to enrich it and help the reader to find what he want to read...
well Said Bro Woodrow..
And
the first post is intellegent note, indeed, just to add ...the biggest issue with the New Testament is not the contradiction (which you correctly said,that they keep on increasing until the resurrection) but the issue of accommodation ...... I believe it is the biggest ,most serious issue ...and the last dozen of my posts ,are just an intoduction to such serious issue.....
the second comment, comes only from advanced reader to Islamic issues.... just my advice one needs to approach such controversy and the other similar controversies eg; Apostasy etc... in a moderate way and not to exaggerate... and Allah knows best...
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back to Issue ( Origin of the christianity that should had been VS the christianity that shouldn't had been )
"'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
What had been forbidden to the Jews ,that Jesus came to allow some?
The answer to that question needs getting the broader context , before examining the law of food with the children of Israel ,according to the Quran, we need to get the context:
How far God blessed the Jews?
1- He rescued them from agony and afflection.
Quran - 7:141
And remember We rescued you from Pharaoh's people, who afflicted you with the worst of penalties, who slew your male children and saved alive your females: in that was a momentous trial from your Lord.
2-He made them inheritors of a blessed land,due to their patience and constancy,made amongst them prophets, and kings.
Quran - 7:137 And We made a people, considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We levelled to the ground the great works and fine buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride).
Quran - 10:93
And [thereafter], indeed, We assigned unto the children of Israel a most goodly abode, and provided for them sustenance out of the good things of life.
Quran - 5:20
And Moses said to his people: "My people, remember God's favour upon you that he made amongst you prophets, and made you kings, and he gave you what He had not given any from the worlds."
But alas
They:
1- Corrupted the revelation:
5:13 they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them..
etc....
2- broke the convenant
Holy Quran 4:154
raising Mount Sinai high above them in witness of their solemn pledge. And We said unto them, “Enter the gate humbly”; and We told them, "Do not break the Sabbath-law"; and We accepted from them a most solemn pledge.
Holy Quran 2:84
And We have taken a covenant with you: "You shall not spill each other's blood, nor drive each other out from your homes." And you agreed to this while bearing witness.
Yet you it is who slay your people and turn a party from among you out of their homes, backing each other up against them unlawfully and exceeding the limits; and if they should come to you, as captives you would ransom them-- while their very turning out was unlawful for you. Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
2- Sins and transegressions
Quran - 5:62
And you see many of them hasten to sin and transgression and consuming money illicitly (or eating of things forbidden ). Miserable indeed is what they were doing.
Quran - 4:161
And because they practised usury although it had been forbidden them; and for using others' wealth unjustly. For those who are unbelievers among them We have reserved a painful punishment.
Quran - 2:58
And [remember the time] when We said: "Enter this land, and eat of its food as you may desire. abundantly; but enter the gate humbly and say, `Remove Thou from us the burden of our sins', [whereupon] We shall forgive you your sins, and shall amply reward the doers of good."
Then the evildoers substituted a saying other than that which had been said to them; so We sent down upon the evildoers wrath out of heaven for their ungodliness.
Holy Quran 7:163 And ask them about that town which stood by the sea: how its people would profane the Sabbath whenever their fish came to them, breaking the water's surface, on a day on which they ought to have kept Sabbath -because they would not come to them on other than Sabbath-days! Thus did We try them by means of their [own] iniquitous doings.
3 - Rejecting the signs ,killing the prophets:
Quran - 2:61
they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.
Quran - 2:87
We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
4-They ordered the people to do good, but forget To practise it , sold the revelations for a trifling price such as worldly gains, status and renown , overlayed the truth with falsehood, suppressing the truth.
Quran - 2:41 And believe in that which I have sent down confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and barter not My revelations for a small price, and Me alone shall ye fear.
42. And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
44. Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?
The punishment ?
1- covered with humiliation and misery
Quran - 2:61
They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah.
2-Cursed by God and some prophets...
And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts.
4:47 O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.
Quran - 5:78
Cursed are those who have rejected from among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and Jesus son of Mary. That is for what they have disobeyed, and for what they transgressed.
no wonder both David and Jesus are depicted shamefuly (by those whom they cursed)...one as adultrer and another as son of adultry!
3- Were given hard laws .
Holy Quran 4:160
And because of the iniquity (or injustice) of the Jews, We have forbidden them the good things which We had made lawful for them, and for their much obstructing the way of Allah.
The Bible?
Ezekiel 20: 21 “‘But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws, of which I said, “The person who obeys them will live by them,” and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the wilderness that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, 24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their parents’ idols. 25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live
..................................
After we got the context ,let's now concentrate more on the things that were prohibited for the Jews then....
The law of food with the children of Israel ,according to the Quran, had stages:
1- Pre-torah era:
Holy Quran 3:93 All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel(Jacob) had forbidden to himself, before the Taurat was revealed.
Till next post
peace
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Yusuf Ali has this comment to that verse in a footnote: "they began to misuse Scripture itself, by either taking words out of their right meaning, or applying them to things for which they were never meant".
Surah 5:13 does not mean that the Jews corrupted the writings of the Scriptures. It means that they misapplied the words by taking them out of context.
Al-manar
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yes the Jews , misapplied the words by taking them out of context, besides, displacing, adding,deleting....
more important writing a text from their minds claiming it to be the word of God....
Quran2:79
Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands write, and for the gain they make thereby.
not sure if you read my posts which examined the issue in details right here
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...ghly-comparative-study-arranged-items-24.html
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The Jews suffered greatly under the oppression and heavy taxation of imperial Rome. They were desperate for someone to arise as the Messiah who would lead them into battle against this tyranny and defeat all of their enemies. At first, Jesus seemed the perfect candidate with his miraculous ability to feed thousands with five loaves and two fishes. This would have given them a military advantage under times of siege and food shortage. But Jesus proved a disappointment for them. When the people came to make him their king by force he withdrew into a mountain all alone (John 6:15). Perhaps many viewed that as uncaring cowardice on his part. But Jesus had a sacred responsibility entrusted to him and could not concern himself with worldly political squabbles. And Jesus' disciples have to follow his example.
The Qur'an is clear in saying that (1) the Torah and Injeel were revelations from God and (2) that no one can corrupt or change the words or decrees of God.
But many books have been made that are claimed to be from God but are not and never were. This must be what the above verse is referring to.
جوري
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shouldn't 'God' be able to do everything?.. I mean did he entrust the 'sacred responsibility to himself' or did some other being entrust it unto him.. also why would god descend on earth and be so ineffectual taking a hiatus to a mountain retreat away from his subjects? He created the universe, yet couldn't manage a few folks in Palestine? Is this a joke?
he created all of this:
yet took a retreat in the mountain and was crucified by a couple of provincial villagers? Sob7an Allah!
Al-manar
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The Qur’ān says: “There is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of God.” (Al-An‘ām 6:34) Thus, all attempts to change God’s words have failed because it is inconceivable that God would permit any manipulation of his books.
جوري
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Said verse is about the Quran so there is no manipulation of his 'book' not books!
all the best
aadil77
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I've seen these claims in JW pamphlets aimed at muslims, unfortunately they are false, Allah was reffering to the Quran - His last revelation to mankind
Indeed. The entire sentence goes: "Recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him." (Surah 18, verse 27, Shakir)
Al-manar
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read the context
(Al-An‘ām 6:34 Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.
Words here don't refer to neither the Quran nor the Bible ...... it is Synonyms to ( promises,decision,will).....
God promissed victory for those with patience and constancy ,a divine will that can't be altered...
similar verse:
Holy Quran - 37:172 Our word had been decreed to Our servants who were sent.That they would be made victorious.
God's word(s) in the Quran could refer to scripture besides promises,decisions,judgements,will eg; .....
Holy Quran: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.
God's word in the verse doesn't refer to scripture but to divine decision, and the divine decision or promise can never be altered ....
Regards
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The context is about messengers from God and the message that they bring.
Some are saying that there are certain Qur’ānic verses that speak of such corruption (Arabic, taḥrīf). But what do Muslim scholars say about this? Commentaries explain corruption in two ways: (1) Falsification of the text (altering any written character) and (2) twisting (distorting) the meaning of the text. Muslim commentators are not unanimous that the corruption referred to is that of altering the written text.
In “The Book of Monotheism,” which is part of his Ṣaḥīḥ, Imām Al-Bukhārī explains the meaning of the word “taḥrīf” as follows: “Taḥrīf means alteration. However, no one can alter any written character in a book of God. Taḥrīf was done to the text in the sense of twisting its meaning [misinterpreting it].” In his commentary on Al-Nisā’ [4]:46, Imām Al-Fakhr Al-Rāzī says: “The meaning of corruption (taḥrīf) is the introduction of vain doubt and wrong explanations and changing the word from its true meaning to a baseless sense by means of verbal tricks, as heretics do presently with the verses which contravene their own sect. This is the view that is more true.” In his commentary on Al-Mā’idah [5]:13, he says: “This corruption (taḥrīf) could be [1] false interpretation, and it could be [2] altering the written text. However, we have already shown that the first explanation is most probable, because it is impossible to alter the written text of a book that was handed down in unbroken and widespread succession.” Examples of twisting the meaning of God’s books can be seen in the interpretations that many religions give in support of their false beliefs.
Zafran
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what text are you talking about here? - are you talking about the bible (which one 66 or 73 books?) including Pauls work and viewpoints from John, Luke, mattew and mark - is this what you are talking about???
Surah 7:157 describes these as "the Torah and the Gospel which are with them." (Pickthall) So, by this definition, the texts are what make up the body of writing that existed with the Jews and Christians at the time of the rise of Islam.
Al-manar
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good to know that...
Have you read what Imām Al-Fakhr Al-Rāzī ,would write in the very next lines?
let me quote him:
Arabic
المسألة الرابعة: ذكر الله تعالى ههنا: { عَن مَّوٰضِعِهِ } وفي المائدة
{ مِن بَعْدِ مَوٰضِعِهِ }
[المائدة: 41] والفرق أنا إذا فسرنا التحريف بالتأويلات الباطلة، فههنا قوله: { يُحَرّفُونَ ٱلْكَلِمَ عَن مَّوٰضِعِهِ } معناه: أنهم يذكرون التأويلات الفاسدة لتلك النصوص، فههنا قوله: { يُحَرّفُونَ ٱلْكَلِمَ عَن مَّوٰضِعِهِ } معناه: أنهم يذكرون التأويلات الفاسدة لتلك النصوص، وليس فيه بيان أنهم يخرجون تلك اللفظة من الكتاب.
وأما الآية المذكورة في سورة المائدة، فهي دالة على أنهم جمعوا بين الأمرين، فكانوا يذكرون التأويلات الفاسدة، وكانوا يخرجون اللفظ أيضا من الكتاب، فقوله: { يُحَرّفُونَ ٱلْكَلِمَ } إشارة إلى التأويل الباطل وقوله: { مِن بَعْدِ مَوٰضِعِهِ } إشارة إلى إخراجه عن الكتاب.
English:
The fourth question: Allah mentioned in the verse the expression (after its places) and in another similar verse (from after its places)
{ عَن مَّوٰضِعِهِ }
compared to
{ مِن بَعْدِ مَوٰضِعِهِ }
the difference is: IF we understand the corruption in the sense of twisting the meaning [misinterpreting it]
then they (corrupted it after its places) { عَن مَّوٰضِعِهِ } ...means after the text had its place in the page,they twisted it, without altering it....
that is different from the verse 5:41 where the expression { مِن بَعْدِ مَوٰضِعِهِ } ,which refers to both kinds of corruption ,as they were both twisting the meaning ,and alter the written text as well ...
for those who would like to verify ,there is the specific page of the book (In Arabic)...
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp...No=46&tDisplay=yes&Page=1&Size=1&LanguageId=1
..........................
you see ,we have the words of Imām Al-Fakhr Al-Rāzī himslef, in the same exact page of his book, .... he affirmed his understanding of verse 5:41 as a reference to textual altering.....
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Thank you for pointing this out and I hope that I did not quote Imām Al-Fakhr Al-Rāzī out of context. If I did the I apologize. But I find it difficult to reconcile what he says there (that Surah 5:41: "refers to both kinds of corruption ,as they were both twisting the meaning, and alter the written text as well") with what he also said: "it is impossible to alter the written text of a book that was handed down in unbroken and widespread succession."
Had he changed his mind when he said that?
By the way, sorry to take so long to reply. I've been frantically busy and had a bout of illness.
Zafran
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Thats not true - becasue the Gospel of christ that he taught when he was alive clearly cannot be be applied to Pauls work as he came after - even further which bible the one that catholics were using with there 73 books? or the 66 book version? if the christians cant agree on what the bible contains how do we know they actually know what the gospel is and what isnt?
Its even more far feteched for JW has you guys have preety much authority on no book.
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