I guess for that to make sense you would have had to know I have only been Muslim for a short period of time.
Wow, and you're already an administrator of the only English-speaking Islamic forum! Impressive.
No I have not seen the movie, only read some excerpts from the hearings. The portion I see it promoting hatred is in the use of fear tactics depicting Muslims as being violent and identical to Nazis.
Okay. Let's compare this to random verses from the Quran.
I challenge you to find one line in the Qur'an that ridicules unbelievers. Quite the opposite, you will find many ayyats that instill the protection of the rights of unbelievers and how we are obligated to treat them fairly, honor all contracts and not cheat them in any business transactions.
The reason I waited to respond is because I wanted to get home and open my Quran up to random pages. This is what I'm doing now, and here is what I found. Again, I am literally opening my Dawood translation up randomly.
The Quran said:
God revealed his will to the angels, saying ... "I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!" That was because they defied God and his apostle. He that defies God and his apostle shall be sternly punished by God. We said to them "Taste this. The scourge of the Fire awaits the unbelievers." (8:12)
They declare: "There is no other life but this; nor shall we ever be raised to life again." If you could see them when they are set before their Lord! He will say: "Is this not real?" "Yes, by our Lord," they will reply, and He will say: "Taste then our scourge, the reward of your unbelief!" (6:30)
The unbelievers say to the faithful: "Follow us, and we will bear the burden of your sins." But they will bear none of their sins. They are surely lying. They shall bear their own burdens, and other burdens besides their burdens. (29:13)
He that does not heed the warning of the Merciful shall have a devil for his companion. (43:36)
But those that disbelieve and deny our revelations shall be the inmates of the Fire, and shall abide therein forever: an evil fate. (64:10)
I could go on, Woodrow, and I have before. I once made a bet with a friend that he could open up the Quran to any random spread of pages and find at least one threat of hellfire of disparagement of unbelief, and I won.
There are no threats of hellfire, but there are warnings that only one path will lead to Jannah and all other paths lead to hellfire. That is like telling you there are 2 buses at the Bus station one goes to New York and one goes to Paducah. If you want to go to New York, you better get on the New York bus otherwise you are going to spend your vacation in Paducah.
You have an interesting definition of "threat," then. Because when I read in a book that if I don't do what it says, I will go burn in a Fire, that sounds functionally equivalent to a threat.
And the point of all this is not to argue about how threatening and hateful the Quran is. The point is that it would be easy enough for some poor Christian or atheist to get "offended" by these verses, claim they are "hateful" and "inspiring violence against kufr," and then use the legal system to prosecute Muslims and the Quran. It is the exact same argument that Muslims are using to censor Wilders—and that is why you should not support this argument!
The censorship is not because the movie critiques Islam, but that it depicts Muslims as being evil and are out to destroy non-believers. It promotes fear and hatred of Muslims.
Again, the same could be said for countless verses of the Quran. It's a slippery slope.
No I do not think books like "Mein Kampf" should be banned. There is even a legitimate use for them in sociological studies or can even be of use to those interested in learning of the Nazi era and how it developed. I can even justify people reading it out of curiosity or even to learn how to become a Nazi.
Yes I think hate groups such as the KKK and neo-Nazis should be prosecuted when their actions lead to physical or emotional harm to others.
These statements seem to contradict each other, though. Why should KKK and Neo-Nazi speech be banned while Mein Kampf should be allowed? Isn't Mein Kampf the
source of Neo-Nazi speech?
Now, as I said to Nocturnal, I agree with you that speech should be banned if it causes immediate physical harm. But I stop there. I don't believe speech should be banned if it causes "emotional" harm because almost any speech can cause emotional harm to
someone. I'm sure plenty of people are "emotionally harmed" by those random Quran verses I quoted—but you obviously don't think the Quran should be banned!
As I argued to Nocturnal, we both agree that there are
certain limits to free speech. But I think it's important for
both of us to draw that line as far as possible towards the "free" end of the spectrum. Because if governments are able to censor speech just because it offends you, what is going to stop them from censoring
your speech when it offends other people?
I do not know how familiar you are with either. but, I lived in Louisiana when the KKK was very active, segregation was the law and civil rights extended to whites only. I knew quite a few KKK members and sadly even agreed with some of their beliefs. I also grew up in the WW2 era and remember well when the Nazi concentration camps were found and met survivors who migrated to my home town and listened to their stories of life under Nazism.
My grandparents grew up during this period; some of their family died in the Holocaust. But as I said before, I am not so frightened by Nazi ideology that I would try to censor anyone who promotes it.
It is slander and insulting to equate Muslims with Nazis. In Holland people know the facts of life under the Nazis, I see it as especially outrages there for a person to equate any group with Nazis unless the intent is to cause hatred.
I don't think it's slander at all. It's a stupid analogy, probably a harmful analogy—but stupid analogies are not slander.
Harsh criticism is acceptable. Promotion of hatred in the name of criticism is not.
What counts as "promoting hatred"? How do you legally define "promoting hatred"? And what would prevent someone from claiming the Quran promotes hatred and censoring it by that exact same criteria?
You will not see it. I keep my actions against other members private between myself and the member as does the rest of the staff.
Fair enough. I concede this particular point.
