Radicalization: Thoughts?

[Search]

:bism: (In the name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)



For better or worse, technology is here to stay, and it is a staple of most modern people today. I think most radicalization happens online today, and it is this that is the subject of my interest in this thread. Negative voices are easily amplified on the Internet, and people may fall to the radicalization due to many reasons that include feeling like the terrorists are offering a "higher" purpose, especially if the person feels rudderless in his/her life.

Mostly though, I think radicalization happens due to the demonization of the West, and I really think that this needs to stop on all levels. I'm not saying that Western imperialism or aggression do not occur in the Global Age, but the discussion of this needs to be contextualized as a matter of geopolitical impasse. Because I think the "us versus them" rhetoric is only substantiated in the minds of radicals when the current world affairs is seen as inlaying the ground for destruction of Muslims and by extension Islam.

Finally, I think we need to constantly remember and remind others that we're seeing the will of Allah SWT in force (with human agents are only acting out that will).

Sorry, my thoughts are a little disorganized at the moment, but I figured I'd create the thread anyway because I'm keen to hear people's thoughts.

:wa:

 

[IslamicRevival]

Unfortunately it actually is 'us V them'. The west are the aggressors and have been since the fall of the ottoman khilafah, they have too often created 'puppet monsters' and put them in power of Muslim majority countries only to dispose of them when it suits them.

They are the ones who are ultimately responsible for angering Muslims by waging war against the average Iraqi, Afghani, Palestinian Muslim.

The truth is not radical

 

[Abz2000]

Most people who are "radical" (or whatever nonsense label you might want to apply) got their biggest dose in 2003-2004 while the criminal american government was murdering people in Iraq (after it had lost it's fake propaganda capital in afganistan), those days i still remember well, when i didn't have internet and wasn't a person who prayed much other than the tedious task of taking mom to jumu'ah, islamic lectures i'd thought were for oldies with one foot in the grave.
But the constant attacks on Islam used to falsely justify their attacks in Muslim lands, the talk of oppression of women who wore hijab, the discussions and debates on niqab, the lies about imaginary wmd by the possessors of wmd was more than enough for any thinking person to wonder what world they were living in. When any sincere person - no matter how astray - sees and feels the hypocrisy of his stance in supporting or being a part of falsehood and oppression, he/she would normally embark upon a journey to put things right - normally peacefully, then when faced with the totally irrational threats and hatred, automatically polarizes.

Lol, i sometimes squirm when i recall that i once used to go on the internet and diss people who attacked american and british kafir targets because i thought "they were giving Islam bad name", probably because i'd never felt the sting of the oppressors lash and thought that the vilification in the media was the worst that could happen, but the continually rising number of tortured and dead bodies all over the globe is difficult to ignore. Especially when they got called on the wmd and said "but we need the oil" and when our t.v imams lied to us and told us "there's no violence in Islam".


And when teresa may called cheery old zakir naik a radical i just laughed out LOUD

 

[Search]

:bism:



Bro Vision, thank you for responding: I appreciate your input.

That said, apologies in advance, as I am inclined to respectfully disagree with you.

To be honest, I think it is all of us [humanity] versus shaitaan (satan).

Even leaving aside though, I'll share my thoughts on this matter and hope they are coherent enough to follow (and apologies in advance if they're not):

In the famous Battle of Badr, Muslims were outnumbered yet Allah SubhanAllah wa Taala (Glorious and Exalted is God) supported them with angels because they were believers with taqwa (God-consciousness), and their beautiful intentions and actions were in conformity with the teachings of Prophet Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him). Today, Muslims are Masha-Allah (as God willed) some almost 2 billion strong, yet where is that support from Allah SWT? In fact, an astonishing story relays that when a pious Muslim some centuries ago set out to fight on the side of Muslims in a battle, he saw a sight that stopped him in his tracks: The angels were siding with the unbelievers creating terror in the hearts of Muslims. Even watching the geopolitical situations unfold in our world today, I find that the support of Allah SWT is simply not there with the Muslims.

Also, as contemporary Muslims, I wonder why we are so quick to criticize and blame Western governments or non-Muslims without realizing that this was not the the mindset or behavior of early Muslims. Early Muslims knew what the majority Muslims of our time seem not to realize in our time: Early Muslims knew that Allah only appoints leaders over humanity on earth that we, the humanity, earn through our internal condition, that is, intentions and individual and collective actions. Therefore, criticizing governments for their bad policies or actions is ineffective because the American government is perfect for the American people, the Russian government is perfect for the Russian people, and the Pakistani government is perfect for the Pakistani peoples. Because humanity our time is at the lowest dregs of spiritual fulfillment of our primoridal covenant with Allah SubhanAllah wa Taala (Glorious and Exalted is God) to obey Him, Allah is appointing unjust ones over us, and no one may correct the matter because that is Divine Will.

Also, what about what happened during the time of Caliphate of Umar radiyallaahu anhu (may God be pleased with him)? During a battle, Muslim warriors found themselves losing to their enemies. So, what did Umar radiyallaahu anhu (may God be pleased with him) say to the Muslims? Did he say to the Muslims that the non-Muslims were evil or oppressive or responsible for us [Muslims] losing? No. Umar radiyallaahu anhu (may God be pleased with him) asked them to make sure they were still practicing on the actions from the sunnah (prophetic footsteps). They realized that they had not been using miswaak. So, they all banded together and started using miswaak again. Just at the sight of this action, the enemy camp fled believing that the Muslim warriors were sharpening their teeth to eat them. (Lol.) Anyhoo, I think you'll understand that the point I'm trying to make: Muslims themselves, due to their internal spiritual condition, have invited a lack of support from Allah SWT, because as you and I both know that the almost 2 billion Muslims are not even a hairbreadth's close to satisfying all the 5 pillars of Islam due to our general lack of taqwa (God-consciousness) and love of dunya (world).

So, I do think we'd be closer to answers if we introspected as Muslims rather than shifted the discourse. Because it is this shift in discourse that is currently drip-feeding the radicalization we see and the ugly actions we see forthcoming from extremists and terrorists.

So, I'd say we are ultimately responsible. Because honestly, I don't think Allah SWT is specifically looking to the actions of "the West" but looking at our [Muslim people's] actions and finding them short and thereby not sending us the kind of heavenly support that would ensure that Muslims find peace and security.

Just my thoughts.

:wa:

Unfortunately it actually is 'us V them'. The west are the aggressors and have been since the fall of the ottoman khilafah, they have too often created 'puppet monsters' and put them in power of Muslim majority countries only to dispose of them when it suits them.

They are the ones who are ultimately responsible for angering Muslims by waging war against the average Iraqi, Afghani, Palestinian Muslim.

The truth is not radical

 

[Abz2000]

Next time ya see pam or rob, tell them to repent.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Assalaamu alaikum,


(musingly) I heard a talk by Tariq Ramadan recently, and he quoted someone saying (from memory, sorry if I err): the reason we were colonized, was because we were colonisable. Tariq then went on to say that he felt that this observation could be extended, and he said that the reason we have corrupt societies, is because we are corruptible.


May Allah, the Victory Giver, Help us to transform our hearts.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

it actually is 'us V them'.

Assalaamu alaikum Vision,


(mildly) Who exactly is "us" and who is "them"?


May Allah, the Generous, Forgive us.

 

[Search]

:bism:



Why should what they say matter at all? Are Islamophobes new to our world? And were they birthed in modern times? No, only the term "Islamophobia" is relatively new as it was coined in 1990s. However, Islamophobes are not new at all.

Think Abu Jahl.

Pam and Rob, as you call them, are still gazillion times better than Abu Jahl who didn't simply stop at vilification of Islam or Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him).

Abu Jahl went as far as physical torture and conspiring extremist plots to kill Prophet Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him).

And again, why do you continue to lump me in with Islamophobes as if I'm on a first-name basis with them? Because you don't like what I say? Well, tough - deal with it! And for God's sake sake, grow up! FYI: You're not a little kid anymore, and I'm getting a little tired of your words almost always sounding like you're either on the verge of throwing a tantrum or in the throes of one.

Next time ya see pam or rob, tell them to repent.

:wa:

 

[Abz2000]

Assalaamu alaikum,


(musingly) I heard a talk by Tariq Ramadan recently, and he quoted someone saying (from memory, sorry if I err): the reason we were colonized, was because we were colonisable. Tariq then went on to say that he felt that this observation could be extended, and he said that the reason we have corrupt societies, is because we are corruptible.


May Allah, the Victory Giver, Help us to transform our hearts.

That logic doesn't apply to all situations, you can't say you were unlawfully oppressed, murdered, stolen from or robbed because you were oppressable, murderable, steal-fromable or robbable, it works internally and in society. And when some shill tells you that you should just walk aright yourself and that a person doesn't have the right to tell another to repent while they're headed to hell, you know they're shilling and ought to repent or go jump off a cliff.
And if Tarik Ramadan regularly condemns armed Islamic uprisings and revolution as extremism, and says that the debauched French government doesn't have a right to kill unarmed Muslims who aren't working to establish Islam, but does have a right to kill armed Muslims who are establishing Islam, then tells people that it's Muslims' own fault for being colonisable, you'll know that he's either seriously misguided, or a shill Uncle Tom like Quilliam's Majid Nawaz too.

Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.

 

[IslamicRevival]

:bism:



Bro Vision, thank you for responding: I appreciate your input.

That said, apologies in advance, as I am inclined to respectfully disagree with you.

To be honest, I think it is all of us [humanity] versus shaitaan (satan).

Even leaving aside though, I'll share my thoughts on this matter and hope they are coherent enough to follow (and apologies in advance if they're not):

In the famous Battle of Badr, Muslims were outnumbered yet Allah SubhanAllah wa Taala (Glorious and Exalted is God) supported them with angels because they were believers with taqwa (God-consciousness), and their beautiful intentions and actions were in conformity with the teachings of Prophet Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him). Today, Muslims are Masha-Allah (as God willed) some almost 2 billion strong, yet where is that support from Allah SWT? In fact, an astonishing story relays that when a pious Muslim some centuries ago set out to fight on the side of Muslims in a battle, he saw a sight that stopped him in his tracks: The angels were siding with the unbelievers creating terror in the hearts of Muslims. Even watching the geopolitical situations unfold in our world today, I find that the support of Allah SWT is simply not there with the Muslims.

Also, as contemporary Muslims, I wonder why we are so quick to criticize and blame Western governments or non-Muslims without realizing that this was not the the mindset or behavior of early Muslims. Early Muslims knew what the majority Muslims of our time seem not to realize in our time: Early Muslims knew that Allah only appoints leaders over humanity on earth that we, the humanity, earn through our internal condition, that is, intentions and individual and collective actions. Therefore, criticizing governments for their bad policies or actions is ineffective because the American government is perfect for the American people, the Russian government is perfect for the Russian people, and the Pakistani government is perfect for the Pakistani peoples. Because humanity our time is at the lowest dregs of spiritual fulfillment of our primoridal covenant with Allah SubhanAllah wa Taala (Glorious and Exalted is God) to obey Him, Allah is appointing unjust ones over us, and no one may correct the matter because that is Divine Will.

Also, what about what happened during the time of Caliphate of Umar radiyallaahu anhu (may God be pleased with him)? During a battle, Muslim warriors found themselves losing to their enemies. So, what did Umar radiyallaahu anhu (may God be pleased with him) say to the Muslims? Did he say to the Muslims that the non-Muslims were evil or oppressive or responsible for us [Muslims] losing? No. Umar radiyallaahu anhu (may God be pleased with him) asked them to make sure they were still practicing on the actions from the sunnah (prophetic footsteps). They realized that they had not been using miswaak. So, they all banded together and started using miswaak again. Just at the sight of this action, the enemy camp fled believing that the Muslim warriors were sharpening their teeth to eat them. (Lol.) Anyhoo, I think you'll understand that the point I'm trying to make: Muslims themselves, due to their internal spiritual condition, have invited a lack of support from Allah SWT, because as you and I both know that the almost 2 billion Muslims are not even a hairbreadth's close to satisfying all the 5 pillars of Islam due to our general lack of taqwa (God-consciousness) and love of dunya (world).

So, I do think we'd be closer to answers if we introspected as Muslims rather than shifted the discourse. Because it is this shift in discourse that is currently drip-feeding the radicalization we see and the ugly actions we see forthcoming from extremists and terrorists.

So, I'd say we are ultimately responsible. Because honestly, I don't think Allah SWT is specifically looking to the actions of "the West" but looking at our [Muslim people's] actions and finding them short and thereby not sending us the kind of heavenly support that would ensure that Muslims find peace and security.

Just my thoughts.

:wa:

Assalamualaikum. As Muslims, we are responsible for the suffering of the ummah however I do believe we need to remain balanced and point out western hypocrisy when appropriate, we cannot simply brush it under the carpet whilst our fellow Muslims are terrorised all around the world.

We do have to ask why vulnerable Muslims are going abroad to fight a fake unislamic jihad. Why are they so easily duped but we also need to ask Why is the world silent when France bombs Syria with the blessing of the west but when they are hit back the world wakes up with stupid hashtags on social media, a flurry of condemnations and one minute silences for its victims.. It does not make sense, have they forgotten about the thousands already killed in Syria? Where's the condemnation there? And in a mind of a vulnerable ignorant Muslim it's a trigger and can lead to radicalization.

We have to tackle the problem from its roots. And the roots of radicalization in today's world is unfortunately made in the western world although I do agree as an ummah we are spiritually detached from our Deen and its no doubt had a knock on effect around the world. Allah is indeed the most just.

 

[IslamicRevival]

Assalaamu alaikum Vision,


(mildly) Who exactly is "us" and who is "them"?


May Allah, the Generous, Forgive us.

Assalamualaikum

I don't know who is 'us' anymore, I suppose its the true mujahideen wherever they may be, IE the ordinary man who is defending his people within the principles of Islam.

Ameen.

 

[Abz2000]

I just took this clip out from the documentary i posted on the other thread, may Allah guide scahill to Islam, i really found his book on blackwater informative, some government shill who tried to befriend me borrowed it and disappeared when i started to give him the cold shoulder, took a few of my best books aswell.

 

[syed_z]

MashA'Allah very nice thread and JazakAllah khayr for sharing your thoughts brothers and sisters.


I would like to thank sister Search for opening this thread and sharing her thoughts.

The west are the aggressors and have been since the fall of the ottoman khilafah, they have too often created 'puppet monsters' and put them in power of Muslim majority countries only to dispose of them when it suits them.

They are the ones who are ultimately responsible for angering Muslims by waging war against the average Iraqi, Afghani, Palestinian Muslim.

The truth is not radical

Brother Vision thanks for your thoughts. I very much accept the fact that even though what you're saying did occur like the breakup of the Khilafah and attacks on Muslim countries. Yet, again if you analyze that even though those events did take place, it was the Muslims who helped their fulfillment.


The Breakup of the Khilafah couldn't have succeeded had it not been for the Young Turkish Movement inside Caliphate that started to protest against the Ottoman Caliphate and was later used in the breakup of Khilafah. It was their own Muslim Turkish leader of secular thought, Ataturk who broke up the Caliphate and established the Modern Secular Turkey and helped kept it in place.

Had it not been for the Najdi Dawah/Salafi Wahabis and their alliance with the House of Saud, the Ottomans wouldn't have lost control of Hijaz and Saudi Arabia. Today it is the same thought that has spread its violent literalist interpretation of the Holy Scriptures which is causing a chaos in this Ummah in the face of Daesh, Al Qaeda and other Khawarij mentality movements in Pakistan and North Africa.

Iraq was attacked because Iraq attacked Iran - and Iran never started the war - it was Iraq who did on the instigation of Saudi Arabia and GCC states because revolution of Iran was an anti monarchical revolution which brought down a King called Shah of Iran, without any terrorist violence. Thus threatening their kingdoms. So what the GCC rulers did next? Sought Fatwa from Wahabi Scholars that Shias are Kuffar! The effect of that Fatwa spread like Fire in my country, Pakistan. Sectarian Violence spread..... next thing you know we're bleeding because of this nonsense even till today.

Narrated by Ibn Umar: The Prophet (sallalahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) said: O Allah! Bestow Your Blessings on our Sham (Syria) and our Yemen. People said: Our Najd (Najd is that part of Saudi Arabia from which the Saudi rulers have originated). The Prophet again said: O Allah! Bestow Your Blessings on our Sham and Yemen. They said again: Our Najd as well. On that the Prophet said: There will appear earthquakes and afflictions, and from there (i.e., Najd) will come out the side of the head of Satan.” (Sahih, Bukhari)

...in another narration it is the Horn of Satan. Horn also means Qarn and which also means Age/Era. Najdi Dawah and House of Saud emerged from Najd! The age of Shaytan has truly appeared in the face of Wahhabi Alliance with House of Saud declaring every one kafir who don't agree to them.... sheer ignorance that is!



The Afghan problem is another one. When Soviets left the Afghans killed each other for a decade and then Taliban took over. The Taliban were ignorant of many things required in the leadership and they suffered because of that. They suffered because of their own ignorance. They thought that Khawarij are actual Mujahideen, a mistake they made which they regret even up till today. Because of their support in the past of these Khawarij terrorist groups, Afghanistan is still under occupation.



Look at the state of Libya. Its worst now, it has not established government in place. All Muslim countries tried to overthrow Libyas Gaddafi and made Libya's condition worst....

Turkey sends navy to enforce Libyan blockade, will control Benghazi airport
Turkey imposed a naval blockade
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2011/me_turkey0357_03_29.html

[h=2]Why Was Doha Such A Strong Supporter of The Rebels?[/h]Qatar sent and trained army units to fight inside Libya to overthrow government
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/libya/2011-09-28/behind-qatars-intervention-libya


This is all Muslim governments actions that brought Libya to its present state of violence! It was the oil in Libya that attracted them to overthrow governments after governments. Same is happening to Syria now. Its the oil and wealth again.

Turkey is the greatest supporter of ISIS and trades in oil with them.

https://www.rt.com/news/324668-istanbul-residents-isis-oil/

Qatar holds influence over groups in Syria.
[h=1]Nusra releases 16 Lebanese troops, Baghdadi’s ex-wife[/h]http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/12/01/Al-Nusra-hands-over-body-of-executed-Lebanese-soldier-.html


Turkey and Qatar and Saudi Arabia control Al Qaeda and ISIS in Syria! Its very evident by now and should be evident for all who have eyes to see.


Sayyidina Hudhaifa ibn Yaman reported that Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said, “By Him Who has my soul in His hand, the Last Hour will not come before you kill your imam (leader), kill each other with your swords and the worst of you inherit your world (becoming your leaders).”

[Ibn Majah 4043]


...just analyze the ahadith.

....the worst are ruling us today. There is much I can write here on the politics of the Muslim world, but the point is to explain to you that the conditions are created by our own hands. We are our own enemy.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MuslimInshallah;

the reason we were colonized, was because we were colonisable.
the reason we have corrupt societies, is because we are corruptible.

And our leaders know this, and they manipulate us easily, see how Herman Goering talked about manipulating the German people into the Second World War...

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

May Allah, the Victory Giver, Help us to transform our hearts.

Amen.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

 

[sister herb]

The new technology like Internet makes hating so much easier and specially when you can spread your hate words wider than before. It wasn´t very effect at the last decades if you had to write your hate words to paper, send it to some newspaper and then wonder if they will publish it or not. Now it´s only few clicks you need to do and your anger message can spread to all over the world.

Hating is easier to us as well to the "others" which I mean islamophobics, racists and neo-nazis. What is same, I have found out, with both groups (we and them) is that people never like it if you label them to be part of those groups. Racist may write hate posts against other´s race or religion but take offence if someone then tell him its called racism what he is doing. Same with us - radicals never admit to be radicals. The other thing is same; when you try to talk with racist or radical about the tones of his messaging, he (or she) immediately will tell you about the crimes of those others and turns the conversation away from the matter itself. I have seen it´s sometimes (without mention anyone of course) quite typical in here too.

 

[Abdul Emwazi]

The savage westerners that persecute Muslims deserve what they get. I myself have seen the savage nature of these people. Some call it radicalization...i call it a simple reaction to what has been done to Muslims over the many years passed.

 

[Abdul Emwazi]

Look at what Israel is doing to Palestine. Look at what the US has been doing to the entire Middle East. Who is REALLY at fault here?

 

[sister herb]

Look at what Israel is doing to Palestine. Look at what the US has been doing to the entire Middle East. Who is REALLY at fault here?

There is nothing bad to protect the victims and fight against injustice as long you know who is the real enemy. I don´t think that sister who started this thread meant for example working for human rights and anti-war activism. But when those radicals start to think that all "others" are their potential enemies - just same if they really have anything to do with occupation in Palestine etc. or not.

I can simply compare radicalism of some Muslims to radicalism of those gangs whose beat unknown Muslims after some attacks (like in Paris). They see that every Muslims are their enemies and they have to revenge attacks of some others to every Muslims - just same if their victims then support kind of terrorist groups or not. This kind of behaving doesn´t help the victims of zionists at all, neither victims of the conflicts in the Middle East or other parts of the world. They only spread hate and violence and not only spread hate but also increase it.

Radicals - just same in which group they belong - are quite similar in everywhere with their thinking and behaving.

 

[Abdul Emwazi]

The enemy are those who strike first. That is how it is no matter what the circumstance or location. The attacks on the innocent are uncalled for I must agree.

 

[Search]

:bism:



Thank you, bro, again for sharing your thoughts. I agree with some points, and I respectfully disagree with other points.

Sure, I think we can point out how things can be flipped to show hypocrisy, but honestly, I think that game has its fair share on the Muslim side too; so, I don't know if that would be really productive.

That said, I don't honestly think it is necessary for regular Americans or Britons or French or what-have-you to make condemnations as if they are complicit in these government's actions because isn't that what Muslims say too when the reverse happens? That is, we say why should we make condemnations when some "Muslims" in the name of our religion undertake heinous actions? So, why should they apologize for their governments' heinous actions when the government might have been elected by them but despite the slogans about "for the people" don't always act in their interest?

Tyranny is the name of the game today, whatever government we have in place in whatever part of the world, because to be honest, regular people (99% of non-Muslims and Muslims) don't want war and would always rather have workable solutions that involve something of peace or a peaceable resolution, and yet the government doesn't seem to pay heed. I mean, you live in the U.K., and I'm sure you didn't want the MPs to take the decision to bomb Syria, but yet how much control were you able to exercise over the government's action? Nil. The same applies to non-Muslims too living in the West.

My point, bro, if rather obfuscated by my words in the earlier post, is that we do not control the governments, Muslim or non-Muslim in whatever part of the world, but we can in our lives make sure that we do not (inasmuch as possible) lump West as being this kind of super-villain so that gullible people are not then attracted to extremist philosophy that perverts Islam.

Thanks, again, for sharing your thoughts.

Assalamualaikum. As Muslims, we are responsible for the suffering of the ummah however I do believe we need to remain balanced and point out western hypocrisy when appropriate, we cannot simply brush it under the carpet whilst our fellow Muslims are terrorised all around the world.

We do have to ask why vulnerable Muslims are going abroad to fight a fake unislamic jihad. Why are they so easily duped but we also need to ask Why is the world silent when France bombs Syria with the blessing of the west but when they are hit back the world wakes up with stupid hashtags on social media, a flurry of condemnations and one minute silences for its victims.. It does not make sense, have they forgotten about the thousands already killed in Syria? Where's the condemnation there? And in a mind of a vulnerable ignorant Muslim it's a trigger and can lead to radicalization.

We have to tackle the problem from its roots. And the roots of radicalization in today's world is unfortunately made in the western world although I do agree as an ummah we are spiritually detached from our Deen and its no doubt had a knock on effect around the world. Allah is indeed the most just.