Response to a stubborn disbeliever

[Umar001]

How can it be a suprise if you already know the story ?

Oh, I was under the impression that story was going to be expounded on by some.

Well at least its a nice day. :statisfie

Indeed.

You've pointed out yet ANOTHER wrinkle to the story.

This is somehow seen as GOOD and JUST... how do people do these mental contortions?

Hmm, well if it was not for the fact that Jesus didnt seem to happy to die, if he had indeed wanted to and showed that, the story for me would have been somewhat more acceptable.

 

[duskiness]

The outrageous thing isn't that an innocent stepped forward to pay for what was deemed wrongdoing of others (so called sins), but that the judge would accept this and then let those others off free, not having to pay for their wrongdoing. It is just fundamentally wrong.

you said "pay" and you used word "judge". Do you know why? Because you are referring to some of atonement theories in Christian theology which operate with concept of "debt" (like satisfaction theory") or "penalty" (penal substitution). those are- probably- the most simple answers, we can give to question "what have happened on Golgotha?"
Maybe other theories would be more "palatable" for you? Like "Christus Victor", "moral infulence"....probably Grace Seeker would be much more qualified to speak here.
The point is, that there are more views on His death than the one you have presented. Non of them is "the right one". They all grasp part of truth. But as always truth is a bit bigger than any theory...
Overall, we simply believe that His life and death caused this world in its present form to pass away (slowly...)

 

[barney]

Howdy Barney,



Just wondering, ask your sources, Muslim or non Muslim for evidence that that is why God revealed Islaam.

[2.78] And there arc among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.

2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

[2.101] And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.
2.121] Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read. These believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers.[2.159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
[2.174] Surely those who conceal any part of the Book that Allah has revealed and take for it a small price, they eat nothing but fire into their bellies, and Allah will not speak to them on the day of resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful chastisement.

I cant carry on TBH, not enough time...too many verses deal with how the Koran is the word and the Jews corrupted it or diddnt listen.

 

[Umar001]

.....

What I mean is that, the reason said was that Islam came because the people before us corrupted their message, this implies that if they hadnt done so then Islam would not be here, this is what I find a lack of evidence for.

I acknowledge that Islam teaches the previous scriptures were changed but I have yet to see where it states 'this is why Islam was revealed'. If someone tells me that it's their assumption or a leap from the evidence to their view then thats fair enough.

 

[evangel]

The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Actually it's been quite a bit longer. You see, Abraham felt Sarah and he were getting a little old to have any children so, instead of waiting on the Lord to provide, he had relations with Sarah's servant and the result was Ishmail. After a bit, and in God's time, Sarah had Isaac, the promised son. After a bit again, Hagar (Ishmail's mom) wanted her son to have more of the birthright than what was in God's plan so Abraham made her leave with Ishmail. Ishmail's blessing was that He would be the patriarch of the Arab race. Of course we know Isaac was from where sprung the Hebrew race. Basically what we have here is an approximately 4000 year old family feud. Family feuds, if left to run with no reconciliation, get more contentious and bitter which is a pretty apt description of the middle east right now. Also it probably didn't help the way the son's (descendants) of Ishmail are described in the Old Testament, but I'll let you research that one, I've probably upset enough people already.

 

[Balthasar21]

This post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of both the Christian and the Muslim concept of God. The One God has always existed and will always exist - you know the whole no beginning and no end stuff. The One God did not come into existence with the birth of Jesus or with the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad.

According To Christianity Their God , Was Here 2,000 Years , Before The Muslims God Allah , Care to explain Where Was Allah AT .

 

[- Qatada -]

According To Christianity Their God , Was Here 2,000 Years , Before The Muslims God Allah , Care to explain Where Was Allah AT .

According to Islaam, Allaah's always been and has never ceased to exist. He isn't limited to 2000years only.


Regards.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:



Guys (Woodrow and sis Malaikah), i think the trust was given to Adam, and since he was the first human, obviously it continued through his lineage. I think that's explained in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And Allaah knows best.

:salamext:


I think i made a mistake there:

"And [remember] when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, [He asked]: "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we testify!" Lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: "Of this we were unaware."

(Quran, The Heights 7:172)

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/june02_index.php

​

And i explained the concept of Fitrah [the natural disposition] here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/734266-post3.html



Allaah knows best.

 

[Balthasar21]

According to Islaam, Allaah's always been and has never ceased to exist. He isn't limited to 2000years only.


Regards.

Can you give the date and time Allah came to existed Using the Quraan , No Hadiyth Please Unless it back up with the Quraan . DATE AND TIME ALLAH CAME INTO EXISTED , NO BELIEF / FAITH OK

 

[MustafaMc]

Can you give the date and time Allah came to existed Using the Quraan , No Hadiyth Please Unless it back up with the Quraan . DATE AND TIME ALLAH CAME INTO EXISTED , NO BELIEF / FAITH OK

Such a foolish question that only the most wretched would ask.

 

[Balthasar21]

Such a foolish question that only the most wretched would ask.

Why do socall muslims resort to name calling and throwing temper tantrums , Instead of discussing the facts ?

 

[Malaikah]

Can you give the date and time Allah came to existed Using the Quraan , No Hadiyth Please Unless it back up with the Quraan . DATE AND TIME ALLAH CAME INTO EXISTED , NO BELIEF / FAITH OK

There is no date. Allah was not created, He has always existed and is outside the dimension of time. The concept of time is something created, and Allah is not created.

He is not bound by the things He creates.

 

[evangel]

Instead of discussing the facts ?

We live in the temporal. We have a certain amount of time in the day to spend doing what we need to do. We have a certain amount of time on the earth.
God created time (don't ask me why, God is God and I am not, maybe it was so wristwatches would have a purpose) but he is outside of it. To ask when did He punch in how do I answer, always, never. It would be like asking your parents when did you appear in my life when you were created in theirs.
Actually I believe He has given us dual citizenship; our flesh nature that resides in this world and our spiritual nature that resides in eternity.
Every person then is immortal, not the flesh nature, the spiritual, it is where we spend eternity that we each for ourselves will decide on. Like everything else in our life it is our choice.

 

[Balthasar21]

There is no date. Allah was not created, He has always existed and is outside the dimension of time. The concept of time is something created, and Allah is not created.

He is not bound by the things He creates.

I love it when guys play on words . No matter how you play it the muslims God Allah came into existence1400 years after the Christian God .

 

[Umar001]

I love it when guys play on words . No matter how you play it the muslims God Allah came into existence1400 years after the Christian God .

Just pointing out that I think you made a mistake.

Not 1400 I think you mean that the Muslim God Allah came into existance 600 or so years after Christian God. since Jesus came then Muhammad 600 years after him. Not 1400.

 

[Balthasar21]

Just pointing out that I think you made a mistake.

Not 1400 I think you mean that the Muslim God Allah came into existance 600 or so years after Christian God. since Jesus came then Muhammad 600 years after him. Not 1400.

No matter how you slice / dice it the christian God was here before the muslim God Allah . Now if I'm wrong show me in your Qur'aan word for word date for date , Chapter for chapter , Verse for verse , No '' Hadiyth '' Which are word of men that can't be back up with your Qur'aan . When did Allah came into existance . Are You Looking For Another Way To Closed Out Another Post Because You Can't Deal With Other Answer ?

 

[Balthasar21]

We live in the temporal. We have a certain amount of time in the day to spend doing what we need to do. We have a certain amount of time on the earth.
God created time (don't ask me why, God is God and I am not, maybe it was so wristwatches would have a purpose) but he is outside of it. To ask when did He punch in how do I answer, always, never. It would be like asking your parents when did you appear in my life when you were created in theirs.
Actually I believe He has given us dual citizenship; our flesh nature that resides in this world and our spiritual nature that resides in eternity.
Every person then is immortal, not the flesh nature, the spiritual, it is where we spend eternity that we each for ourselves will decide on. Like everything else in our life it is our choice.

Overstand something if you can , I don't accept Sermon nor Testimony .

 

[noodles]

Balthasar, what I'm about to ask is not considered mocking nor name-calling as you put it.

What exactly is your purpose here?

In another thread you mentioned that you were here to learn, and people learn by asking questions. Yet when we present you with the Islamic belief on certain topics, you dismiss is as "Play on words" or the person being "trickster", or rather dismissing another person's answer altogether.

In regards to your Question about How Allah(swt) came into existence, sister Malaikah gave an understanding of the topic which is accepted by the Muslims, yet you reject it because it is not a "fact"

Perhaps you may ignore my post or you may not, I don't really know, but do know this, we've provided you with ample evidence(s?) and all of them went down the drain.

 

[Umar001]

No matter how you slice / dice it the christian God was here before the muslim God Allah . Now if I'm wrong show me in your Qur'aan word for word date for date , Chapter for chapter , Verse for verse ,

You don't seem to have understood nor overstood.

I was saying that;

Just pointing out that I think you made a mistake.

Not 1400 I think you mean that the Muslim God Allah came into existance 600 or so years after Christian God. since Jesus came then Muhammad 600 years after him. Not 1400.

Instead of saying 1400 years after Christian God, which would mean the year, roughly 1397 CE, you mean 600 CE.

If I wanted to, as some might put it, 'school you' that'd be pretty easy, but I have no inclination towards that.

No '' Hadiyth '' Which are word of men that can't be back up with your Qur'aan .

This only shows your lack of knowledge, if you'd like to discuss the validity of Hadith in Islam then feel free to start a thread. Wonder why you would reject the words of Muhammad, a Messenger of God, yet belive him when he said the Qur'an is the word of God. Well that's if you believe the Qur'an is the word of God, you do right?

Are You Looking For Another Way To Closed Out Another Post Because You Can't Deal With Other Answer ?

Just out of curiousity what post have I closed that you mention 'Another'? I'm getting on abit and I forget sometimes.

Regards,

Eesa

 

[Balthasar21]

Balthasar, what I'm about to ask is not considered mocking nor name-calling as you put it.

What exactly is your purpose here?

In another thread you mentioned that you were here to learn, and people learn by asking questions. Yet when we present you with the Islamic belief on certain topics, you dismiss is as "Play on words" or the person being "trickster", or rather dismissing another person's answer altogether.

In regards to your Question about How Allah(swt) came into existence, sister Malaikah gave an understanding of the topic which is accepted by the Muslims, yet you reject it because it is not a "fact"

Perhaps you may ignore my post or you may not, I don't really know, but do know this, we've provided you with ample evidence(s?) and all of them went down the drain.

I said and I Quote ; Kayfa Haalaka
I'm new here looking forward to discussing / shareing knowledge and learning about diffrent belief / faith religion hopeing we can agree to disagree .


Your missing the part [ hopeing we can agree to disagree ] . Their are 82 diffrent sect of muslims all claiming they have the true word of Allah Yes . I have the Right To Reject / Accept / Agree / Disagree . As I have said before I don't claim to know everything , But I know what I know . If you or anyone think I should accept what your saying just because you believe or have faith in what your saying . Then your wrong ,


Discussion = Main Entry: dis·cus·sion
Function: noun
Pronunciation: di-'sk&-sh&n
1 : consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
2 : a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing


Main Entry: panel discussion
Function: noun
: a formal discussion by a panel


Debate = Main Entry: 1de·bate
Function: noun
Pronunciation: di-'bAt, de-
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides


Main Entry: 2debate
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): de·bat·ed ; de·bat·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French debatre, from Old French, from de- + batre to beat, from Latin battuere
intransitive senses
1 obsolete : FIGHT , CONTEND
2 a : to contend in words b : to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments
3 : to participate in a debate
transitive senses
1 a : to argue about b : to engage (an opponent) in debate
2 : to turn over in one's mind
synonym see DISCUSS
- de·bate·ment/-'bAt-m&nt/ noun
- de·bat·er noun


What you and a Few others here want is for people to tell you what you WANT / AGREE ..... To hear . And when this doesn't happen SOME here began to insult / name calling , And they 're allow to get away with it because they're muslims ,


Not one time in any of my post have I ask anyone to accept what I post . But other have told me what I'm posting is wrong , And what I should accept Hummmmmm hey it cool .