Sorry sister UmmLayth, I was not looking for a debate with you and it is clear we see things very differently. I did not mean to imply that I am right and you are wrong and I don't think its necessary for you vise versa either because we have very different view points and we should agree on that. Clearly, I do not have any experience in bringing up children in modern West as you do so you have a lot of experience and understanding that I do not as a single, unmarried person without any children.
Sorry, I did not grow up in the West at Peak of my childhood when I learnt about religion, languages and social/cultural values and standards from non-western point of view. I think because of this I still have some values/standards of haya that is based on ancient times/standards that you are clearly disagree with. I do agree there is no shame in act of sex..it shouldn't have all the negative stigma that many link with it in certain cultures, it is indeed a natural feeling that Allah has created and if fulfilled in halal way it is even rewarded and act of worship from islamically point of view...I am not ignorant of that fact. But in certain countries, sex is not always related to sex After marriage with their halal spouses alone, I think you need understand why it has all the negative stigma related to it where pre-marital/extra-marital affairs are quite common where "x slept with y" is common gossip at high school/workplaces.
I actually never said or implied that we should talk to our kids about masturbation or self exploration, at any point. Perhaps you misread or misinterpreted.
Oh sorry, I must have misunderstood because I thought you said "It is educating a child about a male and female's basic anatomy
as well as proper and improper touching." and "the kids will learn somehow and it is usually inappropriate.
They will peek into bathrooms, make other children remove clothing (very common when parents are too busy in a social environment and letting the kids play alone!)." and I think you also said something about talking to children about
wet dreams too.
But, no you did not say anything about discussing masturbation. Sorry that is my mistake.
That was also never implied. I don't believe it is proper to unload such an important subject on a child all at once. There is no way to cover details that way as there is an initial shock that they have to digest first.
Yes, you are quite right, you never said talk about all these intimate matters at once or frequently. I think you talked about making it comfortable and not associating shame with it. Explaining it is normal feelings and desires Allah has created and not to be ashamed so kids come and talk about it. Theoratically and practically, its a very good way of dealing with the matter.
Can you tell me what "don't talk to boys" teaches?
Lol you wouldn't have liked my mother...you would definately argued back/questioned.
What my mother meant by that phrase was that it is haram to talk to boys unnecessarily and don't get into haram relationships with boys which includes close friendships and Im not going to go on about zina again. But let me explain further why and what my mother meant that phrase...before it ever gets to zina stage, it starts off with small talk with girl and a boy then more talk and friendship then feelings and desire then you know what could happen eventually. But where did everything root from...the seed gets planted with just simple unnecessary talk/chit chat or whatever you want to call it. Ok, my mother did not explain all this to me and I may not have been the smartest girl in school but my mother knows I ain't no fool and she doesn't need to give me big lecture/explain herself.
Obviouslt, that phrase would have never worked for you but as I explained I knew the reason behind the phrase without any explanation. Just because you can't see any lessons behind something even if only 4 words, please remember it doesn't mean there is no wisdom/lesson behind it. Many words and phrases are like poetry, it can be read with new meanings from fresh pair of eyes.
Nevertheless, I can understand why you feel the phrase is pointless and disputable. I thought the same for a second when I was a child.
Also, why do you keep bunching sex/boys/pornography/masturbation together? They are not necessarily related and this is exactly what I mean when I say that people have a negative and dirty connotation to sex, THIS is not normal.
Why does a person have to feel ashamed about something that is natural and allowed in Islam by means of marriage? Urges are normal and ofr some people they are stronger than others. A person should never be made to feel ashamed for that. The shame is committing illegal sexual acts, the shame is promiscuity.
As I said above. You are right it should have postive connotation and not be associated with pronography etc. It is indeed natural desire and halal in marriage setting. All the boys and girls should get married early/young to fulfil these natural desires in halal way if they cannot control them especially if they are strong like with some people more than others. What do you think is best option for 16-17yr old girls/boys with strong sexual desires/urges which is very natural and should not be shameful of? DO you think they should get married straight away fulfil these desires in halal way because you know the other options are not very halal except for fasting and asking them to focus on school work/religious acts but you could argue that they shouldn't suppress their natural desires that was created in men right?
Haya and shame are NOT the same thing! I suppose we need to discuss the difference between the two.
Yeah I don't think we understand what haya encompasses. Haya’ is more complex and dynamic than just modesty and encompasses many shades of meaning, including humility, sensitivity, shyness, apprehensiveness, and shame.
“The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: ‘Among the early prophetic teachings that have reached people is this: if you do not feel shame, do what you wish.’ ”
Related by Bukhari
There is a way to talk about these things with plenty of hayaa. My kids never discuss it around each other or their parents or at the dinner table as it if was nothing, but they WILL approach me alone with questions and THAT is where a parent wants to be. It is called trust.
MashaAllah, that is excellent. I think you have a great relationship with your children and has taught them well. May Allah always maintain this trust with your children and protect you all from any evil, Ameen.
I hope to have a close and open relationship with my children too as I have with my parents who I could always appraoch with any problems. We have a lot of trust in our family too.
So if your friend learns all of their "facts" from google or books that go against Islamic teachings, how are they educating you exactly? Friends are probably the worst people to go to at a young age about this stuff, they need to be guided not leading other blind people.
I never said learn "facts" or anythign from friends...I just said girls talk to their close girlfriends about secret things...its just general chit chat that girls do..doesn't mean I was a fool and believed everything friends said.
If we teach our children what is Islamic/halal then they would know when they go to school/google/books that somethings are against Islamic teachings; once they have an understanding at young age, they would be able to look around the playground and spot unislamic/bad behaviour and stay away from tha and they would find a good/trouble-free friend to stick by.
Is it not respectful to hold your parents in high estimation and come to them first for guidance? What does it mean to be a parent?
That is true. They should be able to approach you with anything without feeling ashamed or embarrassed as there is should be no shame associated with natural feelings. Even if they got themselves into bad situation with someone, they should come seeking advise and guidance from you first.
I agree and this is why this thread was started (I assume). How to overcome the shyness to clarify important life information while remaining modest at the same time.
Yes, I think that was the reason for OP starting this thread.
Right. A bit contradicting though. So who do they get this information from? You said, no sex ed in classrooms (fair enough, I understand why and I wouldn't put my kids through that) but you also said not from parents. How do you suggest an 8,10,12 or 14 year old gather this information in the proper manner?
I really cannot remember saying no sex education in school or at home! Where did I imply this?
I said I was traumatised after sex education at school but it was necessary education for sexually active children/teenagers...I think its useful for them to know about contraception and contracting STIs. I also said that schools should included topics of consenting and grooming etc. I myself and some other kids/teenagers in school found the lessons traumatising and inappropraite at that age because we were still innocent and having sex was never in our mind so the lesson will be inappropraite/insensitive for some kids. Thats what I said I think.
I think I posted on page 1 what I will possibly talk about with my children at various ages which included biology, act of sex, hormones, puberty changes and emotions and desires.
I hope this doesn't come off as me trying to
have a go at you
I'm simply guiding this conversation so that it is fruitful and we get to the bottom of things and gain clarity. It is only a discussion and your input is just as valuable as that of everyone else
No you didn't attack me or my family upbringing personally. Its cool, we are here for discussion and its important to debate with open mind and learn from one another.
Thank you for your reply and input. I learnt a few things from you and this conversation also made me realise something…realised Allah, The Most Merciful, All Knowing saved me from marrying very unsuitable match with conflicting personality/views although tried to come across like he wasn’t a very conflicting person but it all makes sense now! It was all a big show...of course he sees the world completely different to the way I do but he was just hiding and wearing mask! Just a big masquerade. Alhamdulillah, escaped marrying him! Thank you making me realise this now!
