Saudi Arabia & witchcraft

[Skavau]

I guess the moral is don't commit a crime that will be shown on TV and then go to a country or live in a country that will persecute you for it!

all the best

Well, that would be pragmatic of course - but it does not excuse the decision or grant a nation the moral right to impose itself on other people for acts they took outside of its jurisdiction. At the best of times, the very notion or objective to execute someone for 'witchcraft' or 'sorcery' or any familiar sounding fantasy concepts comes across as an extremely tribalistic, superstitious and paranoid idea. To decide to impose it on non-citizens that allegedly did it not in their nation is rather overstepping it further.

Exusing my Godwin tendencies but I take it by your logic, by the way, that any returning Jews to Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1930's would have been given the same response? Nevermind the immorality of the persecution of a people, or of a group - the moral, the far most important moral is to not return to a state that will persecute you!

 

[جوري]

Almost everything everyone says on ethical or social matters are all entirely based on their beliefs. It cannot be based on anything else.

same holds true for laws in the 'civilized west' here are a few from the state of NJ alone and not the oddest:

Drivers must warn those who they pass on highways before they do so.
Full text of the law.
Spray paint may not be sold without a posted sign warning juveliles of the penalty for creating graffiti.
Full text of the law.
Handcuffs may not be sold to minors.
Full text of the law.
It is illegal to wear a bullet-proof vest while committing a murder.
Full text of the law.
One must yield a phone line to a person if it is an emergency.
Full text of the law.
All motorists must honk before passing another car, bicyclist, skater, and even a skateboarder.
Full text of the law.
You cannot pump your own gas.
Why does this law exist?
Full text of the law.
It is against the law for a man to knit during the fishing season.
It is against the law to “frown” at a police officer.
In an attempt to “foster kindness” in the citizens of New Jersey, the month of May is designated “Kindness Awareness Month”.
Full text of the law.
If you have been convicted of driving while intoxicated, you may never again apply for personalized license plates.
The third Thursday of October is designated as “New Jersey Credit Union Day” and citizens of the state should observe the day with “appropriate activities and programs”.
Full text of the law.
Car dealerships are forbidden from opening on Sunday.
Full text of the law.
You may not slurp your soup.
Automobiles are not to pass horse drawn carriages on the street.
It is illegal to delay or detain a homing pigeon.



again if you don't want to pay for your crimes don't commit them.. the dark arts is actually a biggie since people harass others with intent of malice.. whether or not something comes of it isn't important either religiously or secularly if you've read the fatwas at all , the fact a crime is committed against another human being is!

all the best

 

[Skavau]

Well then there you go. he shouldnt be interfering in what people in Saudi Arabia believe in. Its none of his matters.

Why should Saudi Arabia be interfering with (or ending in this instance) the life of Lebanese man for a 'crime' (by their book) that he committed not on their soil?

I hope, by the way, that you have noticed in life that morality pragmatically is a system of behavioural constraint based on an understanding and consideration for the personhood of others? That concept in the modern-world now has moved beyond tribalism or 1920 to 1930's relativism and now extends globally. I do not know anyone that would say that a petty dictator in a small african state ought to be left to his own devices. That we should not consider condemnation for his actions at the expense of others. I do not know anyone that says that we ought to have no input on North Korean affairs and just allow the 'dear leader' to do as he wants with his nation.

Such an idea presents citizenship meaning something as a joke, and is a complete annexation of human rights at the preferred idea of inflated national sovereignty.

 

[جوري]

Well, that would be pragmatic of course - but it does not excuse the decision or grant a nation the moral right to impose itself on other people for acts they took outside of its jurisdiction. At the best of times, the very notion or objective to execute someone for 'witchcraft' or 'sorcery' or any familiar sounding fantasy concepts comes across as an extremely tribalistic, superstitious and paranoid idea. To decide to impose it on non-citizens that allegedly did it not in their nation is rather overstepping it further.

These are the laws throughout the entire Muslim world. Lebanon is majority Muslim country as such Islamic law is supreme!

Exusing my Godwin tendencies but I take it by your logic, by the way, that any returning Jews to Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1930's would have been given the same response? Nevermind the immorality of the persecution of a people, or of a group - the moral, the far most important moral is to not return to a state that will persecute you!

Well the problem is you have no logic and don't see that there are victims in these crimes, as such everything you write can be dismissed!

all the best

 

[Skavau]

again if you don't want to pay for your crimes don't commit them.. the dark arts is actually a biggie since people harass others with intent of malice.. whether or not something comes of it isn't important either religiously or secularly if you've read the fatwas at all , the fact a crime is committed against another human being is!

No, excuse me. This Lebanese man did not willingly commit any crime. He did not even have the notion that what he was doing was a crime. His action also did not affect anyone. He was not even on Saudi Arabian land when he did what he did. He is (or was) a television presenter.

 

[جوري]

By the way I see no source to the original article.. so which parts of it can we consider true and which can be thrown out?
who knows, either way it doesn't matter.. I really do hope they implement the highest penalty on all these people the entire middle eastern region. I have never seen areas this steeped in sorcery and superstitions, they prey on the weak and desperate and then you have these fruitcakes and tree-huggers telling you it is medieval.. well if you commit medieval crimes expect medieval punishment!

 

[Ramadhan]

I wished we had much stricter laws against witchcraft here in Indonesia.
Here fortunetellers are given their own shows on TV, and they practice openly.
people who practice witchcraft and dark arts are even advertising their services on newspapers!
And this things are happening in the world's largest muslim country!
So many people have forgotten that to participate in anything to do with witchcraft is among the gravest acts of shirk.

 

[Skavau]

These are the laws throughout the entire Muslim world. Lebanon is majority Muslim country as such Islamic law is supreme!

Have Lebanon commented on another state going rogue and just deciding that they will behead one of their citizens? Because I haven't seen any response from Lebanon.

Well the problem is you have no logic and don't see that there are victims in these crimes, as such everything you write can be dismissed!

That... has nothing to do with what I asked. I asked whether or not you would say to an oppressed group that the moral they could learn from their hardships would be that they should be more careful. That your sympathy is reserved for a state rather than a suffering minority. Nevertheless I shall ask again: I take it by your logic, by the way, that any returning Jews to Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1930's would have been given the same response? That they should have been more careful?

 

[جوري]

No, excuse me. This Lebanese man did not willingly commit any crime. He did not even have the notion that what he was doing was a crime. His action also did not affect anyone. He was not even on Saudi Arabian land when he did what he did. He is (or was) a television presenter.

so far all I have to go on is one un-sourced article and your ardent protests.. People don't get beheaded for giving the daily horoscope!
try to use your brain a little if you can and it the two cells in it aren't held together by some spirochete!


all the best

 

[جوري]

Have Lebanon commented on another state going rogue and just deciding that they will behead one of their citizens? Because I haven't seen any response from Lebanon.

Has Lebanon commented on this incident all together? surely if it had some semblance of truth there would be some diplomatic negations to extradite him there. leaves you with two options really!

That... has nothing to do with what I asked. I asked whether or not you would say to an oppressed group that the moral they could learn from their hardships would be that they should be more careful. That your sympathy is reserved for a state rather than a suffering minority. Nevertheless I shall ask again: I take it by your logic, by the way, that any returning Jews to Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1930's would have been given the same response? That they should have been more careful?

I don't consider your example and the distillate of it viable all together, I have dismissed it!

all the best

 

[Skavau]

so far all I have to go on is one un-sourced article and your ardent protests.. People don't get beheaded for giving the daily horoscope!
try to use your brain a little if you can and it the two cells in it aren't held together by some spirochete!

Insulted noted, as usual.

In any case:

Click here

Ali Hussain Sibat, the father of five, was to be executed after noon prayers Friday, but a frenzy of media coverage, appeals by international human rights groups and intervention by several Lebanese government officials, may have saved his life, at least temporarily.

A Shi'ite Muslim, Sibat traveled to Saudi Arabia in 2008 to perform a religious pilgrimage known as 'umra,' when he was arrested by Saudi's religious police who accused him of practicing sorcery. The charges stem from Sibat's job in Lebanon, where he has hosted a popular television show in which he made predictions on an Arab satellite TV channel from his home in Beirut.

More Sources: 1, 2, 3.

It appears he may still be alive, or it may be averted.

 

[Skavau]

I don't consider your example and the distillate of it viable all together, I have dismissed it!

Typical. What that tells me is that you can't defend your train of logic. You claim no sympathy for those oppressed in nations. You have no sentences of empathy for the abused or oppressed. You have no recognition for the suffering of those who perish under totalitarian systems where the government is more than satisfied to terminate those who it believes is counter-productive or not conforming to their grand scheme, or five year plans. All you can say is that perhaps they should have left sooner, or perhaps they should not have arrived in the first place.

Do you not believe that nations can be corrupt?

 

[جوري]

Insulted noted, as usual.

we'll take this as a hopeful note that you'll smarten up before you bore us with your next non sequitur to some distant byway?

In any case:

More Sources: 1, 2, 3.

The article says the man mad a 'confession' can you get that confession so we'll have a listen to its clause?

It appears he may still be alive, or it may be averted.

If he survives this I hope it shakes others like him to think twice before interfering with the lives of others with the intent of malice!

all the best

 

[جوري]

Typical. What that tells me is that you can't defend your train of logic. You claim no sympathy for those oppressed in nations

.
this coming from a guy linking being a Jew to being a sorcerer and expecting me to defend what? a concoction you created in your mind? you are pathetic to the highest degree!

You have no sentences of empathy for the abused or oppressed.

I need not comment on the abused nor the oppressed merely the nature of the crime and why it is a crime!

You have no recognition for the suffering of those who perish under totalitarian systems where the government is more than satisfied to terminate those who it believes is counter-productive or not conforming to their grand scheme, or five year plans. All you can say is that perhaps they should have left sooner, or perhaps they should not have arrived in the first place.

well thank God for your presence to be the voice of debauchery and deprivation whenever opportunity presents itself!

Do you not believe that nations can be corrupt?

I believe you come from a corrupt nation yes, and are a prime product of it-- an individual who values the superficial and fuzzy and feels fit to peddle and argue with his nonsense whenever he sees an opportunity citing absolutely nothing but mishmash written to incite emotions and places very little value on reality and factuality of the situations!

all the best

 

[Skavau]

we'll take this as a hopeful note that you'll smarten up before you bore us with your next non sequitur to some distant byway?

Oh so you did insult me? It was intended? Thanks for telling me.

Are you confusing the word non-sequitor with red herring?

The article says the man mad a 'confession' can you get that confession so we'll have a listen to its clause?

The article says he made a confession to his interrogators under false pretext, but it was then used against him to convict him.

His interrogators allegedly told him to write down what he did for a living, reassuring him that, if he did so, he would be allowed to go home after a few weeks. This document was presented in court as a confession and used to convict him, Amnesty said.

I would not be surprised if they told him what to say in his 'confession'.

If he survives this I hope it shakes others like him to think twice before interfering with the lives of others with the intent of malice!

What are you talking about? You have no idea what his intent was. He is (or possibly was) a television presenter in Lebanon who made predictions. There is no evidence he was trying to deliberately interfere with the lives of others. There is no evidence he had any bone of malice, and since you have already inquired for his confession by your own admission you cannot pretend to know this.

There is however, evidence of malevolence in the Saudi Arabia. The interrogators lied to him in order to try and convict him and they have shown that they have no qualms in interfering with someone elses life by attempting to end it. You have it the complete wrong way around.

Why are you so inconsistent? This is exactly what I mean when I point out your unashamed bias in everything you write.

 

[Skavau]

this coming from a guy linking being a Jew to being a sorcerer and expecting me to defend what? a concoction you created in your mind? you are pathetic to the highest degree!

Jew?!

The sources say that he is a Muslim. Where on earth are you getting 'Jew' from?

I need not comment on the abused nor the oppressed merely the nature of the crime and why it is a crime!

Being on a television show, making predictions and giving out advice is a crime?

I believe you come from a corrupt nation yes, and are a prime product of it-- an individual who values the superficial and fuzzy and feels fit to peddle and argue with his nonsense whenever he sees an opportunity citing absolutely nothing but mishmash written to incite emotions and places very little value on reality and factuality of the situations!

Reality of the situation? You incorrectly speculated that this case with the Lebanese man did not exist, or was nothing like I was presenting it. You were wrong. You incorrectly suggested that Lebanon did not mind this happening. You were wrong. You keep suggesting that this man deliberately went out to harm other people. You were wrong.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Jew?!

The sources say that he is a Muslim. Where on earth are you getting 'Jew' from?


Being on a television show, making predictions and giving out advice is a crime?


Reality of the situation? You incorrectly speculated that this case with the Lebanese man did not exist, or was nothing like I was presenting it. You were wrong. You incorrectly suggested that Lebanon did not mind this happening. You were wrong. You keep suggesting that this man deliberately went out to harm other people. You were wrong.

The comparison you made between a Jew returning to Nazi state and this punishment is what The vale is referring to .

Yes it was a crime. According to the people of Saudi Arabia.

Comparing North Korean dictator to the people of Saudi Arabia is hardly an intelligent analogy.

 

[جوري]

Oh so you did insult me? It was intended? Thanks for telling me.

Are you confusing the word non-sequitor with red herring?

no I meant nonsequitur: (logic) a conclusion that does not follow from the premises!
which is exactly what you do and repeatedly, it makes it laborious to reply to you but you have a way of insinuating yourself on every other thread and letting your smarmy concerto out!

The article says he made a confession to his interrogators under false pretext, but it was then used against him to convict him.

until we find out what is in the article and how it took place your guess is as good as anyone else's there is nothing to argue about!

I would not be surprised if they told him what to say in his 'confession'.

Your conjectures are yours to keep!

What are you talking about? You have no idea what his intent was. He is (or possibly was) a television presenter in Lebanon who made predictions. There is no evidence he was trying to deliberately interfere with the lives of others. There is no evidence he had any bone of malice, and since you have already inquired for his confession by your own admission you cannot pretend to know this.

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about this entire time, are you defending a woman, are you upset with the crime or the fact that is should be made a crime, or the fact that it is another country persecuting the crime? as always you are all over the place and I can't work with your cognitive and emotional imbalance!
Medieval crimes get medieval punishment that is the end of that, we are not here to judge or prosecute this man since we don't know details of said crime save for what you conveniently cut and paste to highlight another moot point .. and if you are as 'empathetic' as a good atheist should why not put up some of your money to save him or her?

There is however, evidence of malevolence in the Saudi Arabia. The interrogators lied to him in order to try and convict him and they have shown that they have no qualms in interfering with someone elses life by attempting to end it. You have it the complete wrong way around.

Again you conjecture and I don't work well with conjectures or emotionality, until such a time you can get us his confession so we can judge it on its criteria and whether coerced or not, your opinion means jack!

Why are you so inconsistent? This is exactly what I mean when I point out your unashamed bias in everything you write.

How am I inconsistent, is it because I refuse to work with your all too frequent confabulations?

funny stuff

all the best

 

[جوري]

Jew?!

The sources say that he is a Muslim. Where on earth are you getting 'Jew' from?

go back and read what you wrote.. you can't be that drunk!

Being on a television show, making predictions and giving out advice is a crime?

Again, he made a 'confession' we don't know if the confession included a daily horoscope .. horoscopes are given daily on TV no one has lost their head over it in KSA or anywhere else.. you remind me of that other moron Barrio who wrote a woman in KSA is being persecuted for removing her face veil while I posted for him Jeddah filled with uncovered faces.. but how amusing that you should cite articles from folks who have never even been inside KSA with the intent of inciting public outrage!
you shouldn't speak of what you do not know which is practically every other topic!

Reality of the situation? You incorrectly speculated that this case with the Lebanese man did not exist, or was nothing like I was presenting it. You were wrong. You incorrectly suggested that Lebanon did not mind this happening. You were wrong. You keep suggesting that this man deliberately went out to harm other people. You were wrong.

I didn't speculate that he didn't exist I asked for a source as the first article was un-sourced.. the latter articles spoke of a confession. Whatever the case it is now in the hands of sage judges not hysterical atheists!

all the best

 

[Skavau]

no I meant nonsequitur: (logic) a conclusion that does not follow from the premises!
which is exactly what you do and repeatedly, it makes it laborious to reply to you but you have a way of insinuating yourself on every other thread and letting your smarmy concerto out!

I don't post on 'every other thread'. I'd ask you how I am commiting a non-sequitor but you refuse to anser 75% of my question. Nevertheless I will leave it open.

until we find out what is in the article and how it took place your guess is as good as anyone else's there is nothing to argue about!

Absolutely. But all sources are indicating they extracted a 'confession' out of him with the promise of a return home back to Lebanon. All sources indicate they lied when they did that.

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about this entire time, are you defending a woman, are you upset with the crime or the fact that is should be made a crime, or the fact that it is another country persecuting the crime? as always you are all over the place and I can't work with your cognitive and emotional imbalance!

Skye, you made the claim that he did his crime with malice. I will even quote you saying this:

"If he survives this I hope it shakes others like him to think twice before interfering with the lives of others with the intent of malice!"

You have no grounds to defend this.

Medieval crimes get medieval punishment that is the end of that

Medieval 'crimes' ought to be a thing of the past. They ought to not exist. Your statement is about as meaningful as claiming that as saying American crimes should get American punishments.

, we are not here to judge or prosecute this man since we don't know details of said crime save for what you conveniently cut and paste to highlight another moot point .. and if you are as 'empathetic' as a good atheist should why not put up some of your money to save him or her?

You already have judged him. Several times.

Again you conjecture and I don't work well with conjectures or emotionality, until such a time you can get us his confession so we can judge it on its criteria and whether coerced or not, your opinion means jack!

Did you read the articles?

How am I inconsistent, is it because I refuse to work with your all too frequent confabulations?

Your typing mannerisms remind me of a small character in the videogame Fable 2.

To topic: you are inconsistent with condemnations. I have seen you hold sympathy for those victims of the many humanitarian crisises within the middle-east and yet reserve no sympathy for those victims of totalitarian regimes. In this instance: You immediately seek to assume Saudi Arabian sovereignty and righteousness in this case, making false claims in the process about the Lebanese man.